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#1
http://www.wsbtv.com/news/14243131/detail.html


hes 80 something years old for god sakes. and the war is over with. its been over, and he was just serving his country at the time.
i think its pathetic.

after all he is elderly, and i think he should be left alone even after what he did. its not like he came to America and killed in hatred. he was just doing his job and now years later he might be deported.

discuss, get offended, flame, whatever....
Rainbow
(I'm not gay)
#3
That is unfair..... Leave the poor old guy alone.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by electricsnake
if God was a chick then once a month the world would blow up
#4
Quote by garden of grey
That's BS.


Even though he "voulenteered" for the position, that didn't mean much in Nazi Germany.


They act like he could have just said "Hey, this is wrong guys!" and the Jews could just stroll out of the camp. It was his job and if he spoke out he would have probably been killed.


ya he joined the Hitler's youth club. back then it was probaly better to be working for the nazis. i wouldn't be surprised if his parents made him do it for the sake of giving him a good life.
Rainbow
(I'm not gay)
#5
That article was one-sided opinion and a slap in the face of journalism. He served his country in a war that happened over 60 years ago, most probably against his own will, and now they want to remove him from the country that he's been living in for many decades? Anyone who even agrees with this a little is a ****ing idiot.
Rig

Jackson DK2M -> ISP Decimator -> Peavey 6505 Combo
#6
“By commencing these proceedings against a man who participated in the victimization of those who were interned there, the Justice Department continues to make good on its pledge to ensure that the United States does not become a sanctuary for human rights violators.”

Ha yeah right, that's what America is all about these days.
#7
Quote by revolutionplz
“By commencing these proceedings against a man who participated in the victimization of those who were interned there, the Justice Department continues to make good on its pledge to ensure that the United States does not become a sanctuary for human rights violators.”

Ha yeah right, that's what America is all about these days.



haha lol.

and America is also supposed to be a place to escape tyranny and enjoy freedom. which is obviously why hew moved here.

funny thing is you wont see any one protesting this and you wont see it on the news day after day.
i think its sad.
Rainbow
(I'm not gay)
#8
I'd volunteer to do a lot of things at gunpoint.

edit-Oh, he was SS.... **** him.
Last edited by acidhammerdrums at Oct 2, 2007,
#9
Time for a history lesson, people.


He was a concentration camp guard, which means he was a member of the SS (they later confirm this). The SS was the elite guard, the most serious supporters. The SS is not just the German army, and you didn't see this happening, and you won't, to normal soldiers. But the SS was not just the army, he wasn't simply serving his country (which still wouldn't have justified it), and he certainly wasn't coerced into joining the SS.


America is supposed to be a home for freedom, not a sympathizer to freedom's greatest detractors. You can almost justify letting normal citizens partially off the hook. Not the SS. They knew and meant exactly what they were doing.
Quote by Roger_Waters
^ wow i actually almost missed that hahaha iforgot your a genious


Don't blame us if we ever doubt you, you know we couldn't live without you.

I'm oedipus, bitch, the original balla
Bust out my 9, light up your Impala
fuck that police!
Last edited by iforgot539 at Oct 2, 2007,
#10
Quote by garden of grey
That's BS.


Even though he "voulenteered" for the position, that didn't mean much in Nazi Germany.


They act like he could have just said "Hey, this is wrong guys!" and the Jews could just stroll out of the camp. It was his job and if he spoke out he would have probably been killed.


SS members knew what they would have to do in their job and were volunteers.
He wasn't "just making his job and following orders".
He wasn't a simple soldier in the front line.
And SS members didn't have to do stuff at gunpoint. As I said, they were volunteers.
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#11
Quote by urik
SS members knew what they would have to do in their job and were volunteers.
He wasn't "just making his job and following orders".
He wasn't a simple soldier in the front line.
And SS members didn't have to do stuff at gunpoint. As I said, they were volunteers.


Right. The SS were the people holding the guns.
Quote by Roger_Waters
^ wow i actually almost missed that hahaha iforgot your a genious


Don't blame us if we ever doubt you, you know we couldn't live without you.

I'm oedipus, bitch, the original balla
Bust out my 9, light up your Impala
fuck that police!
#12
Quote by iforgot539
Time for a history lesson, people.


He was a concentration camp guard, which means he was a member of the SS (they later confirm this). The SS was the elite guard, the most serious supporters. The SS is not just the German army, and you didn't see this happening, and you won't, to normal soldiers. But the SS was not just the army, he wasn't simply serving his country (which still wouldn't have justified it), and he certainly wasn't coerced into joining the SS.



you don't see the whole picture though.
it was better at the time to have such positions. ever heard of the term, self preservation?
secondly, do you think it probaly hasn't ****ed with his mind enough?
3rdly, he was 13 at least when he was first exposed to the Nazi regime ways. im sure he had gotten manipulated into thinking it was right. he was a kid when all the Nazi propaganda was spewed at him.
also if he really liked it he wouldn't have moved here. or at least he would have continued on his ways here.
Rainbow
(I'm not gay)
#13
Actually, if he's 80 now, he would have been more like six when Hitler came to power.

But even that isn't an excuse.


And screw self preservation. It being better to have a position of status doesn't have anything to do with justifying murderous atrocities.


The SS were shockingly brutal, and the leaders of the Third Reich. If they're excusable, who isn't? You can't let everybody off the hook but Hitler and Göbbels themselves.
Quote by Roger_Waters
^ wow i actually almost missed that hahaha iforgot your a genious


Don't blame us if we ever doubt you, you know we couldn't live without you.

I'm oedipus, bitch, the original balla
Bust out my 9, light up your Impala
fuck that police!
Last edited by iforgot539 at Oct 2, 2007,
#14
Quote by drakenshadow
you don't see the whole picture though.
it was better at the time to have such positions. ever heard of the term, self preservation?
secondly, do you think it probaly hasn't ****ed with his mind enough?
3rdly, he was 13 at least when he was first exposed to the Nazi regime ways. im sure he had gotten manipulated into thinking it was right. he was a kid when all the Nazi propaganda was spewed at him.
also if he really liked it he wouldn't have moved here. or at least he would have continued on his ways here.


Self preservation? Man until the last stages of the war, Germany never had been in a better economical position. They DIDN'T need self preservation.
The arian germans were better than ever during the war.
And fanatic religious killers also think that they are doing a good thing by killing gays, and maybe some of them get remorses after that.
But that doesn't excuse them from the crimes they committed.
The killer of Itzhak Rabin thought that he was sent by god to kill him. That should excuse him of what he did ?
And he probably moved there because after the war Germany got into a VERY shietty position.
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#15
Quote by iforgot539
Actually, if he's 80 now, he would have been more like six when Hitler came to power.

But even that isn't an excuse.


And screw self preservation. It being better to have a position of status doesn't have anything to do with justifying murderous atrocities.



ohh ok. so it dosnt matter if you six and your constantly told by everyone around you and the government that the jews are evil and want to kill you and the rest of the world and get told all the other propaganda. it dosnt matter?

im sorry but things you get told whilst young greatly influence your beliefs and the decisions you make.

you need to explain your logic better.
Rainbow
(I'm not gay)
#16
Quote by drakenshadow
ohh ok. so it dosnt matter if you six and your constantly told by everyone around you and the government that the jews are evil and want to kill you and the rest of the world and get told all the other propaganda. it dosnt matter?

im sorry but things you get told whilst young greatly influence your beliefs and the decisions you make.

you need to explain your logic better.


Nope. That doesn't excuse you from killing innocent people.
It's true that he got manipulated. But go say that to the family members of the people that he may have killed.
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#17
well judging from your avatar, its obvious that your gonna say that.

even though its a blind arrogant opinion.
Rainbow
(I'm not gay)
#18
He chose to not only accept the killings, but to take a leadership role in them. Most of his peers did not. Some brave ones chose to take the risk of standing out and refusing to "mach mit" and speaking against the Nazi Regime. The fact that he was one of the relative few who became an SS Officer shows that it was not the norm, not the paradigm, and that he made the decision to take it further, when most would not have.


Even with mitigating factors, with the power of suggestion and propaganda, some things are simply wrong and inexcusable. Like genocide. It's something so wrong, so atrocious, that it can't just be apologized for, no matter the circumstances.


Quote by drakenshadow
well judging from your avatar, its obvious that your gonna say that.

even though its a blind arrogant opinion.


I'm 100% Goy (and a German major) and I agree wholeheartedly.
Quote by Roger_Waters
^ wow i actually almost missed that hahaha iforgot your a genious


Don't blame us if we ever doubt you, you know we couldn't live without you.

I'm oedipus, bitch, the original balla
Bust out my 9, light up your Impala
fuck that police!
Last edited by iforgot539 at Oct 2, 2007,
#19
Quote by drakenshadow
well judging from your avatar, its obvious that your gonna say that.

even though its a blind arrogant opinion.


wow..... just..... wow.
#20
Quote by drakenshadow
well judging from your avatar, its obvious that your gonna say that.

even though its a blind arrogant opinion.


Blind arrogant opinion?
Would you say the same if that man killed your brother, and then told you "I'm sorry man, I just got taught that it's a good thing to do"?
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#21
This is crap. Absolute garbage. Did the US ever wonder WHY he wanted to leave Germany? FFS, the whole country seemed to believe that Hitler's way was the only way, they can't ****ing deport him over something that happened that long ago.

Absolute bull****.
Yellowknife, Northwest Territories
#22
Quote by urik
Nope. That doesn't excuse you from killing innocent people.


but he didnt think they were innocent back then.


What Goes Up



Must Come Down
#23
hmm, I think you're all going a bit extreme... lets play with a little scenario that is most likely unrealistic and see what your opinions are after.


So in 60 years if for some reason Iraq rules the area we know as the USA.. the Iraqi special forces begin rounding up every veteran of the invasion of Iraq. The people involved in Saddams trial are rounded up and executed as a form of penance. The men who volunteered to go fight in Iraq are rounded up and shot for their cooperation with "tyranny".


No one should be victimized at age 80. Isnt it americas fault for letting him in?? Dont they do background checks? Why wasnt this solved in the 1950's?


edit - and dont even try for one second to say that the invasion of iraq is justified.

* shooting laser guided missiles into residential zones to get "purpetrators of hate"
* executing and parading around the bodies of mutilated dead men and mocking their burial rites (saddams sons)
* using extreme human rights violations as justice (saddams trial , guatanamo bay)
* the executions of civilians just doing what their forefathers have done for thousands of years because they denounce christianity (extreme islamics)


LET US REMEMBER THE FAMOUS QUOTE :


ALL IS FAIR IN LOVE AND WAR.

its in the past, the problem has been solved. Leave him alone
Last edited by BennyStruggle at Oct 2, 2007,
#24
Quote by Stingz.
but he didnt think they were innocent back then.


exactly. the ss were firm believers in the Aryan race and actually thought jews were evil.
Rainbow
(I'm not gay)
#25
Quote by Liberation
This is crap. Absolute garbage. Did the US ever wonder WHY he wanted to leave Germany? FFS, the whole country seemed to believe that Hitler's way was the only way, they can't ****ing deport him over something that happened that long ago.

Absolute bull****.



He wanted to leave Germany because the war had been over for a decade, his Nazis had lost, and he wanted to escape prosecution (note spelling) for the crimes he had committed. He came over in 55; he fled the Allies, not the Nazis.



but he didnt think they were innocent back then.


but they were.
Quote by Roger_Waters
^ wow i actually almost missed that hahaha iforgot your a genious


Don't blame us if we ever doubt you, you know we couldn't live without you.

I'm oedipus, bitch, the original balla
Bust out my 9, light up your Impala
fuck that police!
#26
Quote by drakenshadow
exactly. the ss were firm believers in the Aryan race and actually thought jews were evil.


But as I said, it doesn't excuse them from killing people!
And like someone mentioned above me, everyone were silent and didn't complain about what was happening. But only A FEW volunteered to be the executors.
That shows that there was at least SOME understanding that they still were killing humans.
Anyway I'm off to bed. Good night UG'ers.
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#27
Quote by BennyStruggle
hmm, I think you're all going a bit extreme... lets play with a little scenario that is most likely unrealistic and see what your opinions are after.


So in 60 years if for some reason Iraq rules the area we know as the USA.. the Iraqi special forces begin rounding up every veteran of the invasion of Iraq. The people involved in Saddams trial are rounded up and executed as a form of penance. The men who volunteered to go fight in Iraq are rounded up and shot for their cooperation with "tyranny".


No one should be victimized at age 80. Isnt it americas fault for letting him in?? Dont they do background checks? Why wasnt this solved in the 1950's?



Go back and read what the SS is. It has nothing to do with "every veteran."


Yeah. The US should have been better about letting him in. But his crimes are not the fault of the US Immigration Service in the 1950's. But victimized? He's no victim. The people in the camps he helped run were.

Quote by drakenshadow
exactly. the ss were firm believers in the Aryan race and actually thought jews were evil.



And because you declare a belief in something every action, no matter how heinous, that you commit in line with that belief is excusable?
Quote by Roger_Waters
^ wow i actually almost missed that hahaha iforgot your a genious


Don't blame us if we ever doubt you, you know we couldn't live without you.

I'm oedipus, bitch, the original balla
Bust out my 9, light up your Impala
fuck that police!
Last edited by iforgot539 at Oct 2, 2007,
#28
Quote by iforgot539
but they were.

Maybe to the rest of the world, but not to Germany.

Honestly, ****ing think about it! Would you believe something YOUR leader says, or something that the ENEMY says?

EDIT: +476374374734 Pit cred to BennyStruggle
Yellowknife, Northwest Territories
#29
Quote by urik
But as I said, it doesn't excuse them from killing people!
And like someone mentioned above me, everyone were silent and didn't complain about what was happening. But only A FEW volunteered to be the executors.
That shows that there was at least SOME understanding that they still were killing humans.
Anyway I'm off to bed. Good night UG'ers.



ok so, if you thought some one right next to you was evil, and wanted to harm you, and he rest of the world, you would be ok with it?
Rainbow
(I'm not gay)
#30
Quote by iforgot539
Go back and read what the SS is. It has nothing to do with "every veteran."


Yeah. The US should have been better about letting him in. But his crimes are not the fault of the US Immigration Service in the 1950's. But victimized? He's no victim. The people in the camps he helped run were.



ok ur right. he was a member of the secret police.

so by your logic should we round up the CIA and FBI and have them executed for what some of them have done in Iraq?
#31
Quote by BennyStruggle
ok ur right. he was a member of the secret police.

so by your logic should we round up the CIA and FBI and have them executed for what some of them have done in Iraq?

THANK YOU!

And how about the KGB as well? Vladimir Putin anyone? I certainly don't see him being executed for crimes he committed while in the KGB.
Yellowknife, Northwest Territories
#32
Quote by BennyStruggle
ok ur right. he was a member of the secret police.

so by your logic should we round up the CIA and FBI and have them executed for what some of them have done in Iraq?


this won't completely invalidate your argument, but its something to think about. you can't make the nazis:jews analogous to usa:iraq, because the jews were not a military power like iraq.
#33
ohhh ya, plus the good ole usa has secret prisons all over in which they have already stated they use "alternative methods of interrogation"


should we round them up ?
Rainbow
(I'm not gay)
#34
Quote by acidhammerdrums
this won't completely invalidate your argument, but its something to think about. you can't make the nazis:jews analogous to usa:iraq, because the jews were not a military power like iraq.

Oh yes, and all the innocent mothers and children that have been killed by the American military were a military power
Yellowknife, Northwest Territories
#35
I know very well what the ss was... and sadly most of them were just family men doing what was best for their families, they wanted to be a part of the hierarchy that they were told would "rule the world".

but leave it up to good old' TEAM AMERICA WORLD POLICE... funny how they are cracking down now 60 years later.. The Americans didnt join the war in until 1941 and they knew damn well what was happening to the Jewish communities.

Why did america join? cuz they were attacked by Japan...they didnt try and stop this "terrible scenario"...

probably cuz they couldnt PROFIT

but hey- America doesnt commit world attrocities at all. So I am done arguing. Thank god im canadian and my country doesnt believe it has the Ultimate authority in the world. this witch hunt on veterans of ww2 is a disgrace.
#36
the point of this whole thing is that the US government should not be trying to debate what was going through the man's head when he was in the war. that's not the way to go about such things. If the man actually killed people unjustly, then he deserves to be punished. however, he didn't actually commit any crimes directly, he simply trained dogs and guarded the concentration camps. it's not up to them to debate what he thought about what he was doing, whether he joined the SS because he wanted to go kill him some Jews, or because he didn't have anywhere else to go. lower rank soldiers like this do not get prosecuted for war crimes for simply participating in the war, volunteer or not, unless they have actually done something outside their orders to commit a war crime. sure, it's a shame that he didn't stand up or something, because it was all happening right around him, but that's obviously not what the mindset of the germans was at the time. no matter how angry you might get about the genocide, the torture, the unimaginable experiments, you can't put all that hate into one man.
#37
Quote by Liberation
Oh yes, and all the innocent mothers and children that have been killed by the American military were a military power


not to mention the 14 year old girl who got rapped by a group of seven us soldier and then her and her whole family killed.


im sure they were a military threat.
Rainbow
(I'm not gay)
#38
Quote by Liberation
Oh yes, and all the innocent mothers and children that have been killed by the American military were a military power


I didn't say any such thing. I'm saying MAYBE the US has a better reason to be in Iraq than the Nazis had to round up the Jews.
#39
Still no response to my Putin comment? Didn't think I'd get one.
Yellowknife, Northwest Territories
#40
Wow. UGers are actually defending Nazis. Not the like in the "BUSH IS TEH HITELR!!!" lib-con flamewar way. Real Nazis who exterminated Jews.

Stay classy.
Quote by chipsahoy
You don't like the smell of some other guy's poop? Hmmm...smells like home to me.
Last edited by schitz at Oct 2, 2007,
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