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#1
Just a conversation I had earlier with a friend that I thought you might want in on.

In a school, is it better to accomodate the slower kids and progress slowly, at the expense of the smarter kids, or go at the pace that suits the smarter kids best?

Btw, segregation isn't an option
#2
I guess the utopia would be a system that permits those who are at ease to thrive, without leaving those with difficulties behind. For example, by giving some tougher problems to solve to the faster kids.
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#3
^^^^ exactly, whats the problem of just everyone work, and whoever finishes that gets harder stuff.
#6
That's why they have "advanced placement" classes. At least a lot of schools do.
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#7
If segregation isn't an option, you go at the slower pace. It's the only pace that's truly fair since most of the class is going to be either below or at normal intelligence. And why would it be "at the expense of the smarter kids?" If they're so damn smart, they can supplement their formal education themselves.
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#8
Segregation. I don't care if you think it isn't an option, I'm fed up of being in a class full of retards.
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#9
Quote by Meths
Segregation. I don't care if you think it isn't an option, I'm fed up of being in a class full of retards.

Amen, I don't get the whole "inclusion" thing. My wife would substitute or student teach in classrooms where kids had aids (not the disease...it's almost like a nanny) who would sit with them all day long and work one on one right in the middle of the classroom. She'd spend 90% of her time dealing with little Jimmy with autism or severe ADHD instead of actually teaching anything. Other kids, in order for them to be "included" would start in the classroom and then be shuffled off into some special, and then rejoin the class again at a later time. Don't you think it would offer more stability if they were just in one place all day long? It really benefits no one.
#10
Quote by Sozes Flying V
Just a conversation I had earlier with a friend that I thought you might want in on.

In a school, is it better to accomodate the slower kids and progress slowly, at the expense of the smarter kids, or go at the pace that suits the smarter kids best?

Btw, segregation isn't an option


have classes that accomodate for each group. Don't most schools have advanced classes?
#11
Quote by rockergurl09
have classes that accomodate for each group. Don't most schools have advanced classes?


Yes, but that would be segregation. The point of the conversation was to debate whos potential is the most important
#12
At my school, they go so fast through hard work that no-one understands it. It's all frankly beyond me.
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#13
As long as you fit the whole syllabus into the time you have, then it should be alright.
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#14
In switzerland there is some form of segregation, isn't there in the UK?
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#15
The smarter ones are more important to develop, they have more potential to do greater good.

That's from a totally realistic standpoint, that's what is developmentally and objectivally correct.

Sounds cruel, but I think it's more cruel to society to let real potential go to waste while waiting for Dillan Dumass to catch up.
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#16
Quote by Schneiderman
Sounds cruel, but I think it's more cruel to society to let real potential go to waste while waiting for Dillan Dumass to catch up.


He spelt Dylan wrong... Oh the irony.... I swear, I'm getting static....

And dumbass too....
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#17
Easy choice - stage a second holocaust, this time with people who's IQ is under a certain amount. Everyone wins, except stupid people, but they are barely human anyway.
#18
Quote by Schneiderman
The smarter ones are more important to develop, they have more potential to do greater good.

That's from a totally realistic standpoint, that's what is developmentally and objectivally correct.

Sounds cruel, but I think it's more cruel to society to let real potential go to waste while waiting for Dillan Dumass to catch up.


If you've got real potential, It won't just fly away, school is as much about stimulating that potential than whatever. For those complaining that they're wasting their time, ask yourself if it isn't partly your choice as well.

EDIT: oh and you don't have to be smart to do good imo
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#19
Quote by Kroach
In switzerland there is some form of segregation, isn't there in the UK?

Yeah there is, the question is purely hypothetical
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#20
Quote by Sozes Flying V
He spelt Dylan wrong... Oh the irony.... I swear, I'm getting static....

And dumbass too....

Ever wonder why names aren't legal in word games like scrabble?

Seriously though, the problem with teaching to the ability of the smarter children is that they will likely make up only a fraction of the classroom. Less then 10% to be sure. So you'll be turning out 9 absolute wastes of space for ever 1 kid who actually knows what the fuck is going on.
#21
Quote by Sozes Flying V
He spelt Dylan wrong... Oh the irony.... I swear, I'm getting static....

And dumbass too....


I spelt dumass wrong on purpose, and both Dillan and Dylan are correct. My cousin's name is Dillan.
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Seriously, who thinks "Shit, i'm gonna die, BRB, Ima' tell UG."?

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Congratz man, you are a true, American Hero.
Go Schneiderman!

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#22
Quote by Schneiderman
I spelt dumass wrong on purpose, and both Dillan and Dylan are correct. My cousin's name is Dillan.


My apologies... satire's a bit hard to pick up in forums...
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I only do that on MSN, and I get many complaints about it.

F&F will have cyber sex with you on MSN. He's a bit handsy though.


I have become..... METACARPI!!!!

I wish


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#23
Quote by Schneiderman
I spelt dumass wrong on purpose, and both Dillan and Dylan are correct. My cousin's name is Dillan.


My mum's family name is spelt Dillon, there are still even more variations other than those already mentioned.
#24
Quote by denizenz
Seriously though, the problem with teaching to the ability of the smarter children is that they will likely make up only a fraction of the classroom. Less then 10% to be sure. So you'll be turning out 9 absolute wastes of space for ever 1 kid who actually knows what the fuck is going on.


On the plus side, the smart kids will actually use what you teach them, the bottom 10% won't. Do painters/builders/bricklayers really need to know Shakespeare/algebra?
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#25
Quote by Sozes Flying V
Yes, but that would be segregation. The point of the conversation was to debate whos potential is the most important


Both. Let the stupid people progress at their speed, and the geniuses at theirs.
#26
i am unfortunately in a class of 5 (its an accounting class) where the other 4 know what to do and im miles behind. i cant comprehend any of it. its my worst subject in school and its the one i spend most time on!!! the teacher is sh!t and doesnt cater for students of lesser intelligence in other classes either supposedly! bitch!
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#27
Quote by Meths
On the plus side, the smart kids will actually use what you teach them, the bottom 10% won't. Do painters/builders/bricklayers really need to know Shakespeare/algebra?


Being any of those three things has nothing to do with intelligence, I was one of the smartest in my high school and I prefer manual professions over, for example, any desk job.
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Seriously, who thinks "Shit, i'm gonna die, BRB, Ima' tell UG."?

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Go Schneiderman!

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#28
A mix, the slow kids need work above their level (slightly) IMO because it will drive them to get that bit better each time/start improving, rather than sticking to a slower level.

Which in the end is that they will need.
#29
Quote by TimmyPage06
Easy choice - stage a second holocaust, this time with people who's IQ is under a certain amount. Everyone wins, except stupid people, but they are barely human anyway.

I think we already had this debate and in the end it was concluded that you people were ****ing stupid for ever even considering that as an option.

And where's the cut-off line? People who are less intelligent than you? I say make it so the cut-off line is exactly 1 I.Q. point higher than yours. How would you feel about that, Mr. Stupidhead?

I swear to God, you people say **** like, "lol this world is so cruel/humanity = phail/lol i lost all h0p3 for mankind" yet you spew stupid **** like favoring a genocide.
#30
i believe that intellegence and the capacity for learning is bolstered through use anyway. So if you gear lesons slightly above the norm you will engourage the dumb people who want to learn *i was one* to better themselves, while still maintaining the intrest of the top 10%, this is barring actual mental and or learning disorders *dyslexia ect...*of course. imo that is the way that would stimulate the bulk of the student population while *wasting* as little potential as possible.

EDIT: looks like i was beaten to my point.....and less wordy as well
just so i dont have to edit every post i make, let me clarify something I CANT TYPE WELL....thanks
#31
Quote by Schneiderman
Being any of those three things has nothing to do with intelligence, I was one of the smartest in my high school and I prefer manual professions over, for example, any desk job.


Sure. I bet you £100000000000 that your average desk job worker is smarter than your average builder. Saying it has nothing to do with intelligence is wrong. General trend is that people who go through school and get a non-manual job will be smarter.

Quote by Archaon
And where's the cut-off line? People who are less intelligent than you? I say make it so the cut-off line is exactly 1 I.Q. point higher than yours. How would you feel about that, Mr. Stupidhead?




+1
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#32
Quote by Meths
On the plus side, the smart kids will actually use what you teach them, the bottom 10% won't. Do painters/builders/bricklayers really need to know Shakespeare/algebra?

They likely do need algebra...and also trig. Builders would for sure. The real question is, does anybody really need Shakespeare? Buncha men dressed like women talking about murder and incest...
#33
Quote by Meths
Sure. I bet you £100000000000 that your average desk job worker is smarter than your average builder. Saying it has nothing to do with intelligence is wrong. General trend is that people who go through school and get a non-manual job will be smarter.


And how do you know this? How many desk workers do you know compared to people in manual labor?

Fields related to both each have their geniuses and idiots. Think about it, politicians are the ones that went on to higher education.

In my experience, which is well rounded as I am achieving "higher education" (which is a farce) but prefer manual labor, is that intelligence is evenly distributed throughout. You may refer to fields which require more advanced types of intelligence but I would argue that one involved in carpentry or construction has acquired as much, if not more intelligence than someone involved in science or something along those lines. It's just not as prestigious.
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Seriously, who thinks "Shit, i'm gonna die, BRB, Ima' tell UG."?

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Congratz man, you are a true, American Hero.
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#34
Quote by Meths
On the plus side, the smart kids will actually use what you teach them, the bottom 10% won't. Do painters/builders/bricklayers really need to know Shakespeare/algebra?



Do you give people a chance to grow/develop/change?

Yes
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#35
On the plus side, the smart kids will actually use what you teach them, the bottom 10% won't. Do painters/builders/bricklayers really need to know Shakespeare/algebra?


Maybe not, but does that mean they shouldn't be given the oppurtunity in early life.
Its tremendously unfair to say to someone when they are still only young, "You're not going to be taught what the smart kids are taught, because your going to be a brick layer aren't you?".
The problem with segregating people is it creates a self fuffiling prophecy for people who have lower ability. Put someone in bottom set, and they'll perform like someone in bottom set. Give people a chance and they get that confidence boost and can improve.
And by the way, intelligence isn't all located within science and literacy, sometimes people with practical jobs have as high a level of intelligence in their given field as any supposed "intellectual", its all social perceptions.
#36
^You're not going to give me some crap about how "being able to make a brick wall requires as much intelligence as astrophysics, it's just a different kind of intelligence" are you?

And people should be set. I shouldn't be held back because you won't hurt some dumb kid's feelings. No it's not fair, how is it more fair to restrict the oppurtunities smarter kids have because you're too scared to offend? People should be taught at a pace which suits their ability and this is impossible in a mixed-intelligence class.

Quote by denizenz
They likely do need algebra...and also trig. Builders would for sure. The real question is, does anybody really need Shakespeare? Buncha men dressed like women talking about murder and incest...


Architects will need trig. Most builders I've met wouldn't know what the hell trig was.

Quote by Schneiderman
And how do you know this? How many desk workers do you know compared to people in manual labor?


Well of all the people who have dropped out of school and got manual labour jobs, most of them did it because they failed all their exams. But hey, they could secretly be geniuses I guess...

Quote by Schneiderman
Fields related to both each have their geniuses and idiots. Think about it, politicians are the ones that went on to higher education.

In my experience, which is well rounded as I am achieving "higher education" (which is a farce) but prefer manual labor, is that intelligence is evenly distributed throughout. You may refer to fields which require more advanced types of intelligence but I would argue that one involved in carpentry or construction has acquired as much, if not more intelligence than someone involved in science or something along those lines. It's just not as prestigious.


In other words their intelligence is solely about cutting wood or laying bricks. I'm not dismissing them all as stupid but as a general trend people who get manual labour jobs do it because they didn't achieve well in school and progress on to higher education which allows you to get better jobs that aren't manual labour.

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Do you give people a chance to grow/develop/change?

Yes


I wasn't saying it should be enforced, I was just commenting.
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Last edited by Meths at Oct 3, 2007,
#37
Quote by Meths



I wasn't saying it should be enforced, I was just commenting.


Ah, lol, i see.
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#38
What's better about a job that isn't manual labor?

Don't tell me the pay, union workers make ridiculous wages for laying bricks.

And there's more to know in the world of woodworking than you could ever imagine.
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Quote by SG thrasher

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Congratz man, you are a true, American Hero.
Go Schneiderman!

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#39
haha this makes me laugh. i go to a relativly small school (in fact we only have one class per year) and we have 3 maths class; smart, dumb and average. thing is the average class had the s##test teacher I've ever seen, he wasnt even qualified lol. Anyway they moved the smart kids down with the average kids hoping their smartness would rub off on the average kids.
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#40
Quote by Meths
^You're not going to give me some crap about how "being able to make a brick wall requires as much intelligence as astrophysics, it's just a different kind of intelligence" are you?



Actually, psychologically speaking building a brick wall and doing astrophysics are two different types of intelligence. This is why IQ tests test over both mathematical abilities and spacial abilities, as well as a multitude of other factors.

If you're thinking there's only one type of intelligence, you're referring to the "g-factor" of intelligence initially proposed by Spearman. This idea was refuted when the ideas of Crystallized and Fluid intelligence were proposed by Cattel, and eventually moved from Gardners 8 Separate "Intelligences" into what is most commonly used today: Sternberg's Triarchic Theory of Intelligence.

If you've ever taken a real IQ Test (not the phony one's online, those in no way provide any indication of actual intelligence), this would be apparent during the test. There are a number of different types of intelligences, not just one single one.
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