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#3
He's a great speaker, but this:

"I find it unacceptable, I will not accept it."

made me lol.

I don't really have a problem with the right to bear arms but I do think there needs to be [more] stringent restrictions. I do always find it funny though how people interpret the second amendment when it was meant to be specifically for militia purposes.

This should probably be in the political thread though.
#4
I think he made a great argument
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#5
Quote by rockon1824
He's a great speaker, but this:

"I find it unacceptable, I will not accept it."

made me lol.

I don't really have a problem with the right to bear arms but I do think there needs to be [more] stringent restrictions. I do always find it funny though how people interpret the second amendment when it was meant to be specifically for militia purposes.

This should probably be in the political thread though.


Right, but "militia" is somewhat loosely defined. A militia could simply be a group of people defending a property (household, etc.).

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#6
If you watched the video you'd have noticed that he did away with the argument over what the 2nd amendment means, and discussed the issue of gun rights itself with literary baggage.

Edit: <preventing confusion> he did this to explain why the 2nd ammendment's wording is irrelevant and in itself is one's "concealed weapons permit".
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#7
the guy speaks the truth
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#8
Ted Nugent is a complete fucking nutcase and he's wrong about everything, always. Period.

People really seem to kinda forget that the U.S. Constitution was written by armed revolutionaries, private citizens who had just used stored arms to overthrow a government. That's why the second amendment exists. If you want to argue for this right, that people should be allowed to arm themselves to overthrow the government, I mean, sure, argue for that, but that's what it's about.
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#9
Quote by jammoe
Ted Nugent is a complete fucking nutcase and he's wrong about everything, always. Period.

People really seem to kinda forget that the U.S. Constitution was written by armed revolutionaries, private citizens who had just used stored arms to overthrow a government. That's why the second amendment exists. If you want to argue for this right, that people should be allowed to arm themselves to overthrow the government, I mean, sure, argue for that, but that's what it's about.


/agree with most. But Ted isn't always wrong. Homebound is right.

Anyway, if we tried to ban guns it'd go down about the same as the war on drugs is going now.
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#10
Quote by jammoe
Ted Nugent is a complete fucking nutcase and he's wrong about everything, always. Period.

People really seem to kinda forget that the U.S. Constitution was written by armed revolutionaries, private citizens who had just used stored arms to overthrow a government. That's why the second amendment exists. If you want to argue for this right, that people should be allowed to arm themselves to overthrow the government, I mean, sure, argue for that, but that's what it's about.



take away the peoples guns and the only people who will be armed are criminals. would that really be a better situation?
#11
He said "numbnuts" in his argument, which means his argument doesn't matter.

The people who argue for gun control don't want people to be unable to defend themselves, they want people who SHOULDN'T have guns to not have them. I really don't understand while gun owners are so opposed to waiting 2 weeks while background checks are being run, before getting their guns. Why is regulating guns a bad thing?
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#12
Quote by Napalmdeth
take away the peoples guns and the only people who will be armed are criminals. would that really be a better situation?
I don't know if you've noticed, but it tends to be violent redneck psychos who are most opposed to gun control, and sane, healthy, good people who are in favour of it - really really broadly generalizing, of course.

There are very specific studies which pretty well prove that at least certain gun control measures directly reduce guns in the hands of criminals and gun crime.
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#13
Guns already are regulated to a certain degree.

In all seriousness, if US citizens lose the right to bear arms, it will not have anywhere near as drastic of an effect on criminals getting their hands on guns as it will on people trying to defend themselves. Robberies, rape, and crime(in general) will rise if this happens now.

After all, what would an armed criminal have to fear if he knows that his victim can't legally get a hold of protection?
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#15
Quote by Haha, Crackhead
After all, what would an armed criminal have to fear if he knows that his victim can't legally get a hold of protection?
The police, like they do now? The fact that rape is bad? That really does deter most people. You really think that, well, a substantial anyone regularly thinks about, say, raping their neighbour, and thinks "Well, I might do it, but there's no ban on assault weapons, so the 23-year-old woman who lives nextdoor is probably sitting in her house ready to machine gun me. Guess I'll have to wait until guns are illegal and only criminals like me get them".
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Really, it's quite gutting that we'll all be dead by the time the earth is entirely underwater because I really want to stick your head underwater while standing on Everest and say "if sea levels aren't rising, HOW COME YOU'RE DYING?!"
#16
One of the best things i love about America is that as citizens we are armed to the teeth. If an invading country attacks, they're not just fighting the military, they're fighting all of us (all of us with guns at least). Not that i feel it will ever happen soon, i just think it's a cool thing to have going on. Also, what about gun enthusiasts and hunters? People who want to protect themselves? I'm totally for the 2nd amendment
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#17
Quote by jammoe
The police, like they do now? The fact that rape is bad? That really does deter most people. You really think that, well, a substantial anyone regularly thinks about, say, raping their neighbour, and thinks "Well, I might do it, but there's no ban on assault weapons, so the 23-year-old woman who lives nextdoor is probably sitting in her house ready to machine gun me. Guess I'll have to wait until guns are illegal and only criminals like me get them".


I said "armed criminals." I never said a damned thing about it converting regular people into criminals. What I meant was that the criminals will be more likely to commit crimes more often.
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#18
Quote by Haha, Crackhead
I said "armed criminals." I never said a damned thing about it converting regular people into criminals. What I meant was that the criminals will be more likely to commit crimes more often.
Even supposing I take a lot of your assumptions for granted that I don't believe... look, the idea that the "standard" crime is a random (it's just assumed "black") male robs or rapes a poor, defenceless woman, further one who would have been saved at she only had a loaded pistol in, I don't know, her purse... it's all a bunch of bunk.

The word "crime" means all sorts of things. Sexual crime, which seems to always be invoked, primarily doesn't involve the sorts of "violence" or relationships where an ankle holster is going to help. There's violence, sure, but it's mostly emotional, and a lot of it is within preexisting relationships. You know, friends, relatives, those sorts of things. A person can have a loaded AK-47 and it's not going to stop them from being raped by their husband; if anything, having weapons in the house can make domestic violence far more complicated, which accounts for America's obscene gun murder rate.

So we'll set aside sexual crimes.

What about petty theft? Do I like people stealing from convenience stores or, I don't know, poor weak grandmothers? No, of course not. Do I think that the best solution is for Mr. Patel from behind his counter or Mrs. Jones from behind her walker to blow anyone's head of? No, of course not.

What about the sorts of crime actually involving habitually armed criminals? Do you think that a drug dealer's going to be regularly going out and attacking "civilians", people totally uninvolved, and that this situation is going to be improved by everyone being better armed? You're really saying drug deals go better when both sides are well armed? Then you're insane.

Also, again, gun control helps stem the flow of guns to criminals.

As for "actual" crime, you know, large-scale non-violent crime, gun control doesn't address this.


I really don't see an argument left.
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Really, it's quite gutting that we'll all be dead by the time the earth is entirely underwater because I really want to stick your head underwater while standing on Everest and say "if sea levels aren't rising, HOW COME YOU'RE DYING?!"
#19
Quote by MattPerson911
One of the best things i love about America is that as citizens we are armed to the teeth. If an invading country attacks, they're not just fighting the military, they're fighting all of us (all of us with guns at least). Not that i feel it will ever happen soon, i just think it's a cool thing to have going on. Also, what about gun enthusiasts and hunters? People who want to protect themselves? I'm totally for the 2nd amendment


Possibly the reason why most FPS zombie games are set in the U.S.

I think with a gun it's probably comforting to know that you can defend yourself against countries and people that attack you. Obviously having a gun is a huge right and alot of people in the U.S it seems aren't responsible enough too have a gun but sadly there is no responsibility test. If people want to have a gun, fine as long as they use it responsibly.

And this is by far the most convincing of Ted Nugents arguements I've heard on the matter.
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#20
They should ban all firearms. Hunters I understand. Police I understand. But citizens loaded with guns I don't. The man who steals your TV might have a gun, so you must have one to blow his head off? Wouldn't it be better with no guns at all?
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#21
Quote by Chips-
They should ban all firearms. Hunters I understand. Police I understand. But citizens loaded with guns I don't. The man who steals your TV might have a gun, so you must have one to blow his head off? Wouldn't it be better with no guns at all?


Wouldn't it be nice if nobody committed crimes? That'd be like.... a perfect society.

Too bad those don't exist.
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#22
Quote by Chips-
They should ban all firearms. Hunters I understand. Police I understand. But citizens loaded with guns I don't. The man who steals your TV might have a gun, so you must have one to blow his head off? Wouldn't it be better with no guns at all?


You completely missed the point.

Without guns, criminals have an advantage. If a criminal grabs a stick and beats the hell out of someone, it is hard for that person to defend themselves without a gun. The criminal has full advantage over the victim.

I agree, for the most part, with Ted Nugent. I also like what he ends it with, "I don't like repeat offenders, I like dead offenders."
#23
Quote by AngusIsMyHero
I agree, for the most part, with Ted Nugent. I also like what he ends it with, "I don't like repeat offenders, I like dead offenders."
America really is the most backward moderately industrialized country. You get you're calling for defacto corporal/capital punishment for like, attempted theft? Or hell, for startling someone? Much of the rest of the somewhat modern world has abolished capital punishment for murder, and there are very good reasons for this.
Quote by Meths
Really, it's quite gutting that we'll all be dead by the time the earth is entirely underwater because I really want to stick your head underwater while standing on Everest and say "if sea levels aren't rising, HOW COME YOU'RE DYING?!"
#24
Quote by Chips-
They should ban all firearms. Hunters I understand. Police I understand. But citizens loaded with guns I don't. The man who steals your TV might have a gun, so you must have one to blow his head off? Wouldn't it be better with no guns at all?



Of course it would be better with no guns at all. But that will never be a reality. The truth is, if there was a gun ban the law abiding citizens would not have guns. The criminals would still be able to have access to guns and there could be more crime because they know the chances of their victim having a gun are very small.
#25
An armed society is a polite society.
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#26
It doesn't mean **** if they ban guns, because if someone wants to commit a crime with a gun, or attain a gun in any way, they will do it. Making murder illegal doesn't stop murder, why should banning guns be any different?
#27
i was listening to Stranglehold when i opened this thread! haha.
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#28
Drugs are illegal, but i still have some weed. Would be the same with guns, if someone wanted one, they could get it.

Its my own life, not yours, I can have a ****ing gun if I want one.
#30
Quote by jammoe
You're really saying drug deals go better when both sides are well armed? Then you're insane.


I really don't see an argument left.


I do say this. If one gang has guns, and the other doesnt, the armed gang can easily slaughter the other gang. If they both have guns, the offensive gang will think twice between starting a shootout. Thats just common sense.
#31
Quote by Napalmdeth
take away the peoples guns and the only people who will be armed are criminals. would that really be a better situation?


Right.
Outlaw guns and the only ones that have guns will be the outlaws.

Yeah, it sounds cliche, but I think its very true.
#32
Quote by zeppelinfreak51
I do say this. If one gang has guns, and the other doesnt, the armed gang can easily slaughter the other gang. If they both have guns, the offensive gang will think twice between starting a shootout. Thats just common sense.
That was the one thing I thought might have been wrong in my post.

What I'm saying is, if you're arguing that "outlawing guns means only outlaws have guns" means that gun legislation doesn't affect criminals, those involved in drug deals say, so it's a moot point in that regard.

The more important point is that drug dealers just don't usually go after random people who aren't armed in America's already gun-crazed society (and I really should emphasize - you're pretty much the only place in the world where this is even an issue, and you also have the hugest gun crime rates in anywhere with primary schools), and wouldn't go after them in a society where guns were illegal. And to the extent that they do, they wouldn't just stop because guns are, I guess you'd actually have to "promote" them. Look - the sorts of people who are habitually armed are so because they're used to dealing with guns, and arming everyone on the thought that they might be potential victims to hypothetical crimes is just a mindnumbingly terrible idea.

Also, again, a lot of this discussion is immaterial because we know effective gun control policy can keep guns out of the hands of criminals.


ed:
Quote by CowboyUp
It doesn't mean **** if they ban guns, because if someone wants to commit a crime with a gun, or attain a gun in any way, they will do it. Making murder illegal doesn't stop murder, why should banning guns be any different?
So what? We legalize murder, because if we outlaw murder only outlaws will kill people? This is nonsense. Yes, obviously, there are sometimes legitimate uses for some guns, but hell, sometimes there are legitimate uses for murder.

Also, the general point stands - when something is bad, or unnecessarily dangerous, while illegalization isn't going to be totally effective, you still do it, and it still accomplishes some things. And we know for a fact effective gun control reduces gun crime.
Quote by Meths
Really, it's quite gutting that we'll all be dead by the time the earth is entirely underwater because I really want to stick your head underwater while standing on Everest and say "if sea levels aren't rising, HOW COME YOU'RE DYING?!"
Last edited by jammoe at Oct 7, 2007,
#33
I'd really prefer there be no gun control so smart, well-educated citizens can protect themselves, just in case. But the intellectual blackhole that is a good chunk of America's population would f*ck things up ten times worse if there were no gun control laws.
I agree with the you people for less restrictions that it should be that way, but if you consider how dumb people really are, do you seriously want more idiots armed to the teeth?
Imagine all the half-wit soccer moms who feel empowered watching trash like Oprah, hearing of these gun laws loosening, decide to buy some, and act out on every male they see. The sad thing is too, half those mouth-breathing c*nts would get out of it by schmoozing the jury with all this emotional, estrogen-hype bull.
In conclusion, gun control is good.
#34
Quote by jammoe
That was the one thing I thought might have been wrong in my post.

What I'm saying is, if you're arguing that "outlawing guns means only outlaws have guns" means that gun legislation doesn't affect criminals, those involved in drug deals say, so it's a moot point in that regard.

The more important point is that drug dealers just don't usually go after random people who aren't armed in America's already gun-crazed society (and I really should emphasize - you're pretty much the only place in the world where this is even an issue, and you also have the hugest gun crime rates in anywhere with primary schools), and wouldn't go after them in a society where guns were illegal. And to the extent that they do, they wouldn't just stop because guns are, I guess you'd actually have to "promote" them. Look - the sorts of people who are habitually armed are so because they're used to dealing with guns, and arming everyone on the thought that they might be potential victims to hypothetical crimes is just a mindnumbingly terrible idea.

Also, again, a lot of this discussion is immaterial because we know effective gun control policy can keep guns out of the hands of criminals.


ed:
So what? We legalize murder, because if we outlaw murder only outlaws will kill people? This is nonsense. Yes, obviously, there are sometimes legitimate uses for some guns, but hell, sometimes there are legitimate uses for murder.

Also, the general point stands - when something is bad, or unnecessarily dangerous, while illegalization isn't going to be totally effective, you still do it, and it still accomplishes some things. And we know for a fact effective gun control reduces gun crime.


Guns, even if banned, would still be fairly easy to obtain for those who needed them. Look at it this way, even though it is a stretch but I am going to use your metaphor. Murder is legalized, the people who would commit a murder would be incredibly weary about it, as they can be murdered by the person they are trying to murder. In a society where a criminal will feel safe murdering someone, because he knows the victim won't fight back but will instead run, is a society in which murder will happen. I know it's a stretch, but it is another way to look at it.

Basically the argument is that if everyone had a gun, you would be a lot more careful about pulling a gun on someone because they had one too. While I don't exactly think this is the way it should be, I see nothing wrong with owning guns for protection. We aren't talking full on assault rifles, but a small concealed firearm for protection is perfectly acceptable.


The other thing is drug dealers aren't the only criminals with guns. Armed robbery, for example, is much more difficult when the other side is armed too. How many robbers would hold up a bank when they know that every person in that bank is armed as well? Armed robbery is not that rare.
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#35
For those who say ban all guns, thats ridiculous, and stupid. If you ban guns, even if you get rid of (hypothetically) EVERY gun on planet earth, there will be people who will make them by themselves. There will be people to find more clever and creative ways to kill you. There will be murders regardless, you could kill someone with a pillow filled with feathers, a rock you find on maple street, a hammer, chainsaw, garden hose, your set of keys to your car, your car, a butter knife, battery acid, some rope, your steel-toed boots, a college textbook, a pen, a nailclipper, the nearby lake, your own fists. Are you getting my point? You can kill anybody with nearly anything in some fashion or another.

I personally can't give out my position on guns because I have yet to find a way to present the way I feel about them accurately. All I will say is criminals don't give a **** about the law, they'll get them legally or not, legal citizens should be able to purchase them if they choose to. And I'll even go as far as to agree with Nugent about the dead offenders. **** 'em, I can't stand sick people, I'd gladly pull the trigger myself to get rid of a few.
About a year ago, someone around here kidnapped a woman, tortured her, raped her, set her on fire while bound up, and left to die in a feild. I wish I could get my hands on people like that and kill em myself, **** the whole life-in-prison deal, let them fry or be shot.
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Last edited by AngilasGuy at Oct 8, 2007,
#36
Quote by goods2006
Basically the argument is that if everyone had a gun, you would be a lot more careful about pulling a gun on someone because they had one too.
Interesting theory, except that most people armed with far more dangerous things than handguns aren't remotely careful, deterrent or not. Are you arguing for universal MAD with nuclear weapons too? It's an interesting theoretical, but it's not the sort of thing anyone seriously considers. And the principle scales fairly well.

Quote by goods2006
How many robbers would hold up a bank when they know that every person in that bank is armed as well?
You'd be surprised at the places that are armed already. My, um, aunt I think it is, she's a nurse down south somewhere (Michigan? I don't know), apparently the hospital desk there is armed.

People still do stupid stuff. Deterrence is tremendously ineffective, except insofar as it already is. Putting more guns out there makes situations worse, period.


Quote by AngilasGuy
And I'll even go as far as to agree with Nugent about the dead offenders. **** 'em, I can't stand sick people, I'd gladly pull the trigger myself to get rid of a few. About a year ago, someone around here kidnapped a woman, tortured her, raped her, set her on fire while bound up, and left to die in a feild. I wish I could get my hands on people like that and kill em myself, **** the whole life-in-prison deal, let them fry or be shot.
Why.

Clear, simple question, and I'd like a coherent answer, something one obviously doesn't expect from Mr. Nugent and I can't imagine from you or anyone who would propose something similar, but I figure I'll ask.

Why?
Quote by Meths
Really, it's quite gutting that we'll all be dead by the time the earth is entirely underwater because I really want to stick your head underwater while standing on Everest and say "if sea levels aren't rising, HOW COME YOU'RE DYING?!"
#37
Quote by jammoe

Why.

Clear, simple question, and I'd like a coherent answer, something one obviously doesn't expect from Mr. Nugent and I can't imagine from you or anyone who would propose something similar, but I figure I'll ask.

Why?


Why what?
What do you mean? Why i'd want a criminal dead? Why criminals do it? Why not chuck them in jail for life instead?
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#38
Quote by AngilasGuy
Why what?
What do you mean? Why i'd want a criminal dead? Why criminals do it? Why not chuck them in jail for life instead?
Why do you seem to personally want to kill certain classes of people (and I use the word "classes" very generally, we'll ignore that debate for now). That's approximately what I'm asking.
Quote by Meths
Really, it's quite gutting that we'll all be dead by the time the earth is entirely underwater because I really want to stick your head underwater while standing on Everest and say "if sea levels aren't rising, HOW COME YOU'RE DYING?!"
#39
Quote by jammoe
Ted Nugent is a complete fucking nutcase and he's wrong about everything, always. Period.

People really seem to kinda forget that the U.S. Constitution was written by armed revolutionaries, private citizens who had just used stored arms to overthrow a government. That's why the second amendment exists. If you want to argue for this right, that people should be allowed to arm themselves to overthrow the government, I mean, sure, argue for that, but that's what it's about.

Ted Nugent is right. Completely.


He wants to defend himself against criminals. Period. Is that wrong? He is a famous man, and I'm sure people may try to break in his house at one point or another.

Man needs security. Any sensible person knows that the police are half assed and won't protect anybody. A fire arm in a good man's hand is good. A fire arm in a bad man's hand is bad. But, nearly all bad men get their fire arms illegally anyways.
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#40
I agree with Ted Nugent, he is now my IDOL. I've always been pro gun, and i've been around guns all my life. I don't go around wondering when I am gonna get to shoot someone, I've got guns for protecting me and my family from Ignorant ass people that want to take advantage and hurt other people. I'm legally handicaped and I'm not able to defend myself by no other means and no one is gonna come in and hurt me or my family. If they want my guns, they're are gonna have to pry them from my hands. I'm not gonna give the up easily. Not saying that I would do anything illegal or hurt anyone to keep them I would just do what I could to try and keep them. And whats the use to lock some worthless mother****er up that has killed someone? All that does is make the tax payers taxes higher to have to keep him up. Just listen to Charley Daniels - Simple Man song and you'll see my point of view on things. Call me a redneck, hick, hillbilly or what ever thats your oppion, and they are like assholes everybody has got one.