#1
A few weeks ago ive learned about modes, and im now using them to improvise to my music, most of what im trying is metallica and DragonForce, (Thrash and Power Metal) which modes would sound the best over those bands/music types? Or would scales such as melodic minor, pentatonic, blues etc be more likely to sound good?
#3
What scales/modes you use all depend on what key the song is in. Metallica songs are just about all in E minor so an E phrygian or Aeolian would work for them. But I don't listen to Dragonforce so I can't help you there
#4
For metal, your gonna want to use the Dorian, Phrygian, Aeolian, or Locrian because those are the minor scales of the modes. However, if you learned how to use the modes, then you should know that it depends on the key of the music that your soloing over. For example, you can playing C Major over A minor and it will be minor sounding.
#5
Hrm, yeah aeolian and phrygian would work, does anyone know of any decent guides or resources on how to use modes? Everything i know so far is just trial and error lol, thanks for the advice anyway
#6
Dude, you can sound "metal" with just about any mode or scale (atleast I, and most other people I know, can). It all depends on your phrasing. Out of the bands you mentioned, Metallica's mostly in minor pentatonic and Aeolian, and Dragonforce is purely in Ionian (and the pentatonics). BTW both the bands have sh|tty guitarists, atleast IMO.
Quote by buckethead_jr
I didn't think they had metal in the 1790's

Quote by Guitarislife125
Copper is a metal

Quote by buckethead_jr
Ah, touche.
#7
Quote by BassTalk
Dude, you can sound "metal" with just about any mode or scale (atleast I, and most other people I know, can). It all depends on your phrasing. Out of the bands you mentioned, Metallica's mostly in minor pentatonic and Aeolian, and Dragonforce is purely in Ionian (and the pentatonics). BTW both the bands have sh|tty guitarists, atleast IMO.

+1. Work on phrasing. It's not the notes you play, it's how you play them.
#8
like said phrasing is a friggin HUGE part of it
i suggest looking at some of joe satrianis newer works, ie, super colossal, and work through a couple songs, even the first 30 seconds, just learn the riffs by ear, thats what i did, and continue to do, and it has helped my phrasing tremendously

but for modes/scales
pentatonics and straight up minor scale will get you somewhere

and i hate to say it, but i agree with basstalks last sentance, dragonforce...sure theyre fast, but theyre some of the worst guitarists ive heard, not because of speed, but because they have next to no emotion whatsoever in their playing
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#9
Guys, he came here for the advice, which you willingly gave and I commend you for that. But he didn't come here so you could bash his musical influences.
#10
Quote by Arycama
Hrm, yeah aeolian and phrygian would work, does anyone know of any decent guides or resources on how to use modes? Everything i know so far is just trial and error lol, thanks for the advice anyway


Try MT FAQ.
Quote by Johnljones7443
my neew year reslosutions are not too drikn as much lol.

happy new yeeae guyas.
#11
Quote by Discouraged
Guys, he came here for the advice, which you willingly gave and I commend you for that. But he didn't come here so you could bash his musical influences.

Damn straight. I thought us regs were more grown up than that

Quote by Arycama
does anyone know of any decent guides or resources on how to use modes? Everything i know so far is just trial and error

Now, when playing modes over chords, look at the intervals making up the chord and the intervals making up the mode. If they match up, they will sound good together.
Say a Cm chord comes up, thats 1 b3 5. Look at the modes and you see that Dorian, Phrygian and Aeolian all contain those intervals.
So you could play C Dorian, C Phrygian or C Aeolian, which one you chose will give a different feel.
Now if an Amaj7 comes along, thats 1 3 5 7. Compare that to the modes and you see that you can play A Ionian or A Lydian, againg giving different feels.
What about a Bbm7b5? You see that the only mode with 1 b3 b5 b7 is Locrian, so you can play Bb Locrian
With an E7 (1 3 5 b7) you find that only Mixolydian fits, so you can play E mixolydian

JohnlJones Jazz-Theory Bit:
With that E7 you could play E Phrygian, with the b3 funtioning as a #2, to outline an altered dominant chord.
E7 - 1 3 4 b7
E Phrygian 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
This gives the intervals 1 b2 #2 3 4 5 b6 b7 which is a _11b9#9b13 chord.

Remember none of this is law, it's just a guide so don't be afraid to experiment.
Hope this helps

The way to use modes and get their different sounds is to think of the intervals it is made up of. Phrygian has a b2, a dark, dissononant interval. Lydian has a #4, which sounds... I dunno how to describe it but it sounds cool. Mixolydian is like the major scale but has a b7, making it bluesy and dominant.

Just drone the low E string, keep it ringing (clean setting works best). Then on the remaining five stings, play E Phrygian, E lydian, E Aeloian, E Ionian etc. and emphasise the unique intervals in each. Really listen to each scales' characteristics. Try making a melody from each mode while droning the E string.

Once you have done this, watch this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWHKeC4IEgA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoGQ9yHOyZQ
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#12
Thanks for all the info Ænimus Prime, ill try remembering/practicing some of that next few times i play. Yeah I spose its the whole phrasing thingo. And dont worry about crushing my musical influences =P Ive read countless flame wars between DragonForce fans and haters and watched my share of Herman Li payout videos on youtube. Funny yes, but sad that people go to that much effort >< But people can have an opinion and say their guitarists suck if they like. Thanks for the help guys =)
#13
I suggest trying out phrygian. Take E phrygian for starters. You can make a very simple riff to learn how to solo with it. Just play a E5-F5 progression, and solo over that. Make sure to target chord tones.
#14
Quote by bigmanwithanaxe
+1. Work on phrasing. It's not the notes you play, it's how you play them.

That's just not true at all. Phrasing means a ****ton, but ignoring harmony and intervals is flat out dumb. I wouldn't use mixolydian to solo over a thrash or death metal song, because even with fantastic phrasing, it's simply the wrong choice. I'm not going to say you can't d it, but there are always better choices, and using something like mixolydian in metal will require so many chromatic tones thrown in that you'll kinda just use the I and V to resolve, making it pretty useless to say you are using diatonic scales anyways.

If you want some crazy dissonance, rock out Locrian. It's a dangerous tool to use because of the b5, but when a guy can use it well they can rock it hard. Frank Gambale has a few vids on Youtube where if you just type his name and the name of the mode then you'll find a demo of him soloing with it.

EDIT: I'd advise against melodic minor, it was designed for classical composition and adopted for jazz, but gives very little to metal music. Harmonic minor might suit your purposes better, and if you sharp the 4th degree then you get some crazy lack of resolution.
Quote by nightwind
You must never double the leading tone ever. Failure to comply will result in a fugue related death.
Last edited by troyponce at Oct 21, 2007,
#15
Quote by troyponce
That's just not true at all. Phrasing means a ****ton, but ignoring harmony and intervals is flat out dumb. I wouldn't use mixolydian to solo over a thrash or death metal song, because even with fantastic phrasing, it's simply the wrong choice. I'm not going to say you can't d it, but there are always better choices, and using something like mixolydian in metal will require so many chromatic tones thrown in that you'll kinda just use the I and V to resolve, making it pretty useless to say you are using diatonic scales anyways.

With good phrasing you can pretty much use what ever notes you want and make it sound good.

it's simply the wrong choice.

There's no rules in music.

I'm not saying forget harmony and intervals, I was trying to say that just playing a scale isn't going to make you sound metal and what not, it's how you apply it.
Last edited by bigmanwithanaxe at Oct 21, 2007,
#16
Quote by bigmanwithanaxe
With good phrasing you can pretty much use what ever notes you want and make it sound good.


There's no rules in music.

I'm not saying forget harmony and intervals, I was trying to say that just playing a scale isn't going to make you sound metal and what not, it's how you apply it.


There aren't rules to how you can write or the decisions you make, but there are rules of wave forms and the overtone series which are inescapable outside of electronic and experimental music. The simple truth is that he's looking for advice on what will sound good in metal and Ionian, lydian, and mixolydian are the wrong places to go for that. People telling him that it doesn't matter what scale he chooses are just going to hinder his progress.
Quote by nightwind
You must never double the leading tone ever. Failure to comply will result in a fugue related death.
#17
Quote by troyponce
The simple truth is that he's looking for advice on what will sound good in metal and Ionian, lydian, and mixolydian are the wrong places to go for that.
I disagree, major modes can and have be used effectively in metal by many artists.

People telling him that it doesn't matter what scale he chooses are just going to hinder his progress.

So metal is limited to just the minor scales and modes? Experimenting with different scales in different situations is going to hinder his progress?
Telling him he can only use certain scales when playing certain genres of music is what'd hold him back, not the other way around.
#18
indeed, but it's good to give someone who's new to scales and modes a scale or two to work on.
#19
And you could try using modes of harmonic minor, too you know!
Quote by Johnljones7443
my neew year reslosutions are not too drikn as much lol.

happy new yeeae guyas.
#20
^ Dorian #4 FTW!!!
Quote by buckethead_jr
I didn't think they had metal in the 1790's

Quote by Guitarislife125
Copper is a metal

Quote by buckethead_jr
Ah, touche.
Last edited by BassTalk at Oct 22, 2007,
#21
Quote by bigmanwithanaxe
I disagree, major modes can and have be used effectively in metal by many artists.

So metal is limited to just the minor scales and modes? Experimenting with different scales in different situations is going to hinder his progress?
Telling him he can only use certain scales when playing certain genres of music is what'd hold him back, not the other way around.

Experimenting comes after understanding the basics. He's still trying to learn the simpler concepts, hence why I'm not telling him to string together whole tone string skipping licks with augmented arpeggios. They can totally sound sick, but that's not the lesson he needs right now. Aeolian, phrygian, and minor pentatonic are what he needs to focus on getting down before he starts experimenting with other things. Phrygian dominant will sound like ass if he doesn't understand how to use a simpler scale already.
Quote by nightwind
You must never double the leading tone ever. Failure to comply will result in a fugue related death.
#22
Sorry for butting in but a lot of people said that phrasing is important, can anyone explain to me that a little bit more indepth about it?

Thanks
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#23
Phrasing is the way you do the things you do. What notes you choose over what chords, how you move melodically, dynamics, how you bend, vibrato, etc. Basically putting all your expressive tools together and saying something with them.

Watch Marty Friedman's Melodic Control video (you can find it on google videos) for some great ideas.
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#24
Quote by troyponce
Experimenting comes after understanding the basics. He's still trying to learn the simpler concepts, hence why I'm not telling him to string together whole tone string skipping licks with augmented arpeggios. They can totally sound sick, but that's not the lesson he needs right now. Aeolian, phrygian, and minor pentatonic are what he needs to focus on getting down before he starts experimenting with other things. Phrygian dominant will sound like ass if he doesn't understand how to use a simpler scale already.

You have a point, I was rushing a head slightly. I was just trying to let him know that experimenting and such was a good way to go about it so he wouldn't get stuck in a "pentatonic rut" or "modal rut" as I have done many a time before, it's something i wish someone would have told me when I started out.