#1
IM gonna build my own cab soon, out of either eminence governors or wizards, an im wondering, is there even a point to using 212 or 412 cabs?

Even a 112 cabinet can handle 75 watts with one of those eminence speakers which is plenty for up to a 50 watt tube amp i figure, and anything louder than 50 tube watts is overkill anyway, for any purpose due to the widespread use of PAs.

So is there a point to 212 or 412 cabs? is the possibility to use stereo effects worth it? is the allegedly "bigger" sound really there?
#2
Closed back multiple speaker cabs sound a lot different than a single speaker open back.
#3
it really is... i have a 1x12 combo amp... which sounds great... but it doesnt sound ANYTHING like my 2x12 legion cabinet... you get more punch out of a 2x12 or even more out of a 4x12... when i think live music... i think when that guitar player hits those strings with a palm mute that is gonna like pound into your chest... you can feel it... thats my draw to bigger cabs
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#5
But in a stage situation the sound dispersion effect will be actually created by the PA cabs, wouldnt it? ...making the sound dispersion of the guitar cab of less importance
#7
I'd say go for the 212 because it looks sexy.

412 is just overkill. I used to have a 412 and it is not worth luggin that **** around.
I am the Infantry.
#8
I kind of think im gonna go for a 112 still guys... the weight seems a big bummer with the bigger cabs, lifting and carrying a 25kg 212 cab seems like very gruesome work.. whereas a 15 kg 112 is still lift able with one hand. also, my monetary resources are slightly limited.. another 12 incher would cost 60-80 euros which i dont wanna waste unless its really worth it in the sound.
#9
Quote by The red Strat.
yeah but some people don't mic it. like me.
i hate micing it.


Agreed. Especially when you have a soundy that has a sook because you need 3 different speakers done. I mean, wtf? You'll happily give the drummer 8 channels, but the 2nd I ask for two more you go into a bitch about how it screws your whole mix up, when in reality you haven't even finished setting up the mics yet.

Yep. It was a bit of a rant. I know it sounds mean, but I'm not paying them to complain.
#10
Quote by 1337void
IM gonna build my own cab soon, out of either eminence governors or wizards, an im wondering, is there even a point to using 212 or 412 cabs?

Even a 112 cabinet can handle 75 watts with one of those eminence speakers which is plenty for up to a 50 watt tube amp i figure, and anything louder than 50 tube watts is overkill anyway, for any purpose due to the widespread use of PAs.

So is there a point to 212 or 412 cabs? is the possibility to use stereo effects worth it? is the allegedly "bigger" sound really there?

for a 50 watt tube amp, you will need a speaker of at least a 100w rating. The 50w is a mean power output, the peak power output will be 100w, also the power varies slightly from the rated value within a threshold. So you should REALLY have a 212 with 2 of those speakers to make sure you don't blow it.
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#11
^ Ever notice how speakers have peak output ratings as well? You're wrong.
#12
Quote by mcw00t
for a 50 watt tube amp, you will need a speaker of at least a 100w rating. The 50w is a mean power output, the peak power output will be 100w, also the power varies slightly from the rated value within a threshold. So you should REALLY have a 212 with 2 of those speakers to make sure you don't blow it.


I got told something like that when I wanted a 212 with vintage 30s. They are 60W each and my head is 120W and I was told they wouldn't be able to handle it so I ended up with a 412 with Hot 100s. I like them better anyway but I still dont get why a cab of 120W wouldnt be able to handle a 120W tube head?
#13
Quote by littlemurph7976
I still dont get why a cab of 120W wouldnt be able to handle a 120W tube head?


It would have. With ease.

Speakers -especially quality name brand speakers- are generally conservatively rated. Speaker manufaturers don't want their speakers to blow, so they put plenty of cushion in those ratings. Plus, your 120W amp head is only putting out 120W when every volume and gain knob is completely maxed out. How often do you run it that way?

It's amazing, the bad info out there.
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You Don't Need 100W.

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#14
It really is. The guy who was telling me all this runs a guitar shop as well and is supposed to know his ****.

****ing Bell-end.

Still, I like my cab so its not that bad.
#15
^ Unfortunately, what he knows is how to sell a 4x12 to someone looking for a 2x12.
You Don't Need a halfstack.

You Don't Need 100W.

Quote by jj1565
i love you slats.
#16
Quote by slatsmania
^ Unfortunately, what he knows is how to sell a 4x12 to someone looking for a 2x12.

Aye. If you have a job a guitar at a guitar store, it's usually not that you "know" gear so much as you "know how to sell" gear!
#17
^ some of the people in the guitar shops here have no clue at all. there are one or two who, provided you aren't a little brat, will be frank with you and give good advice
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#18
Quote by Storm_Bringer_
^ some of the people in the guitar shops here have no clue at all. there are one or two who, provided you aren't a little brat, will be frank with you and give good advice


I hate arseholes like that.

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#20
handling ratings on speakers should be taken with a grain of salt no matter what it says... i've ALWAYS gone by the handling rating... not the max rating or whatever... those can be VERY misleading... those max levels mean they can handle that many watts for a very short period of time... not all the time... the normal ratings... such as 60 or 75 watts or whatever on average speakers is what you should be going by... and then of course keeping in mind the type of circuit you are gonna be using also makes a big difference as to how those speakers are going to actually get the ammount of power you are putting into that circuit... whether it be series or parallel i have a 1x12 combo that i use... solid state and it says it has an output of 60 watts... solid state circuitry... and the original speaker, which said 60 watts handling on the back, blew... like completely shred to pieces. And i was just using it at about half the master volume with the other volumes about half as well... So i went ahead and got a 75 watt speaker for it... thats 75 watts handling and that thing has not even stressed the speaker at all, even with max settings all across... granted i don't use it like that... but whatever. Now for tube amps when it says 50 watts of power output... tube power is a crapload more powerful than solid state. Thats why when amplifier companies who sell, say a 100 watt tube amp head the matching cabinet can usually handle FAR more wattage than 100 watts, like 200 watts or something
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#21
Quote by mr_hankey
^ Ever notice how speakers have peak output ratings as well? You're wrong.

Not the speakers he was looking at. The rating on the speaker is how much power can be run through it before mechanical clipping begins. The output of the amplifier, as I said before, is the MEAN (RMS to use the more common, but false description) the peak power output is actually double the mean/RMS. That's why you'll find that matching cabs are pretty much always a little over double the power rating of the amp's output.
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#22
Quote by mcw00t
Not the speakers he was looking at. The rating on the speaker is how much power can be run through it before mechanical clipping begins. The output of the amplifier, as I said before, is the MEAN (RMS to use the more common, but false description) the peak power output is actually double the mean/RMS. That's why you'll find that matching cabs are pretty much always a little over double the power rating of the amp's output.


You mean like the 30 watt cab (or speakers) which goes with the AC30? Or the 100 watt 4x12 which belongs with the 100 watt super lead? I won't deny that you might get clipping, but they won't blow.
#23
Quote by mr_hankey
You mean like the 30 watt cab (or speakers) which goes with the AC30? Or the 100 watt 4x12 which belongs with the 100 watt super lead? I won't deny that you might get clipping, but they won't blow.

They COULD blow, which is what I'm trying to say. Plus once they did begin clipping, it would sound like ass. I'm just saying that it is a far better idea to get the 2 of them as it will sound better and it will make sure it is crankable.
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#24
Quote by mcw00t
They COULD blow, which is what I'm trying to say. Plus once they did begin clipping, it would sound like ass. I'm just saying that it is a far better idea to get the 2 of them as it will sound better and it will make sure it is crankable.


You might be right, but a lot of people like the sound of (mild) speaker clipping. I think having speakers that handle twice the wattage might be a bit excessive/unnecessary, though.
#25
Quote by mr_hankey
You might be right, but a lot of people like the sound of (mild) speaker clipping. I think having speakers that handle twice the wattage might be a bit excessive, though.

My VC30 has 2 35 watt speakers, meaning a total power handling of 70w from a 30w amp. Which fits perfectly with how I've always been told to have speakers in a circuit.
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Ibanez RG370DX
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Dunlop Crybaby
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Ibanez TS9DX
#26
A tube amp rated for a certain number of watts is the rated number of watts that the tube amp will put out before it begins to overdrive. Once it begins to overdrive it can almost double in wattage, which is why speaker cabs are rated higher than the actual amp. That is why it is always advised to get something with a power handling of double your amp power.
#27
^AFAIK, the point of overdrive is when the maximum output is reached. Again, using the AC30 as an example: 33 watts into two 15 watt speakers. Works fine. If those 33 watts would be 'clean output', there would be no way the speakers would survive.

And cabs are often over-rated (especially nowadays) since speakers can handle very high wattages. Good luck finding a (decent selection of) 5-10 watt speaker(s) for your 5 watt amp. I will soon have a 300 watt cab for my 50 watt amp, just because I couldn't find the speakers I wanted, with lower wattage ratings.
Last edited by mr_hankey at Oct 22, 2007,
#28
Quote by mcw00t
Not the speakers he was looking at. The rating on the speaker is how much power can be run through it before mechanical clipping begins. The output of the amplifier, as I said before, is the MEAN (RMS to use the more common, but false description) the peak power output is actually double the mean/RMS. That's why you'll find that matching cabs are pretty much always a little over double the power rating of the amp's output.


ive read from numerous sources that the governor can handle 150 watts peak power and the wizard can handle 150 aswell. also, considering the very high efficiency of those speakers, i dont think i would even crank em even on a 50 watt amp..
#29
Speaker manufacturers rate their speakers knowing full well the ins and outs of rating tube amplifiers, and rate their speakers accordingly. mr_hankey's point about the AC30 and Celestion blues being a perfect example. You think the makers of such an important amp component wouldn't understand peak and RMS values? C'mon! You think they want their customers blowing speakers rated at 30W in 30W amps? Of course not! Their speakers are designed to handle the wattage rating listed on them with ease.

And speaker breakup is a very desirable sound for blues and some classic rock players. It's the sound back from when amps weren't big enough to keep up with the band, and were pushed to their absolute limit - and it sounded great! The sound of Page's Supro or Clapton's Champ. It's the sound so many players are after.

This "double the amp's wattage" thing is an old wives tale. You believe it? I've got an old wife to sell you. Cheap.
You Don't Need a halfstack.

You Don't Need 100W.

Quote by jj1565
i love you slats.