Page 1 of 2
#1
double flats seem a little ridiculous to me. This is where theory just starts getting retarded. I mean an instructor corrects me when i say for an example an A note, and reminds me its not an A note its a double flatted B note, because there is no A in the scale.

This seems like an excuse to break theory, but theory trying to cover its own ass. I mean im sure there is more logic behind it, and im just asking someone to explain.


Also if I may ask when do you find diminished and half dimished chords or arpeggio's most appropriate? When im just messing with a progression and am trying to cover most of the chords in the key the dimished chords sound so terrible i usually just use them for an odd sounding bridge or break down.
#2
Yeah I haven't met a person yet who doesn't think double flats are retarded.

Quote by emad
jthm_guitarist
Warned for trolling!


Quote by metal4eva_22
Didn't you say that you had a stuffed fox that you would occasionally fuck?

Quote by Axelfox
It's not a fox,it's a wolf.
#3
yup double flats are just a way to cheat and play a note not in a scale...
My Rig
1. Hand built custom mockingbird with original floyd rose and emg 81-85
2. Epiphone Flying V Goth With Floyd Rose and emg 81-85
3. Thrown together strat body guitar
Effects
Boss Ds-1
Mxr EVH phaser
Zakk Wylde Wah
Amp
Behringer Gm212
#4
Quote by Manjinken
Also if I may ask when do you find diminished and half dimished chords or arpeggio's most appropriate? When im just messing with a progression and am trying to cover most of the chords in the key the dimished chords sound so terrible i usually just use them for an odd sounding bridge or break down.


i want you's breakdown sortof spots have half-diminished chords in them, sounds sick to me. i use them to give them a little off spot in the progression, makes everything else seem so spectacuraly harmonious
#5
That's why it is called music "theory" and not music law. It's a way of thinking set up by humans in order to create a way of discussing ideas about music, much like the sciences discuss the world around us.
#6
OK I need clarification...is a diminished chord 1 b3 b5 bb7, which played right creates two overlapping different tri-tones? I hope I'm right, because that chord sounds sweet played in a melodic minor progression. And half diminished is just a normal locrian scale...entirely second guessing myself and require explanation please.
#7
Quote by King ofKumbucha
That's why it is called music "theory" and not music law. It's a way of thinking set up by humans in order to create a way of discussing ideas about music, much like the sciences discuss the world around us.



wow. good way of putting that!
Quote by gallagher2006
Whats a Steve Vai? Floyd Rose ripoff?

Quote by Mr. Twelve
Behold...the Arctopus are obviously music. I don't see how anyone could say they're not music compared to many modern and post-modern composers. That being said, I think B...tA are terrible.
#9
Quote by st.stephen
OK I need clarification...is a diminished chord 1 b3 b5 bb7, which played right creates two overlapping different tri-tones? I hope I'm right, because that chord sounds sweet played in a melodic minor progression. And half diminished is just a normal locrian scale...entirely second guessing myself and require explanation please.

A diminished chord is completely simmetrical, minor thirds stacked on top of each other. Or tritones, as you said.

Yes, a half diminished chord is built from the locrian scale
Locrian 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7
half diminished chord 1 b3 b5 b7
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#10
Well, in particular, double flats (and double sharps) can help you in determining function. Flatted notes, in general, want to resolve downward, and sharp notes want to resolve upward. A double flat, therefore, would probably have an even greater tendency to resolve down, and vice versa for a double sharp note.

For example, let's say we're playing in G# minor. We want to use the V to resolve to the i, so we take the minor v (D# minor) and raise the third, giving us D# Fx (x standing for double sharp) and A#. Enharmonically, the Fx is the same as G natural, but the note's intent is to resolve up to G#, so it makes sense to see the Fx.

Also, it could be an issue of cleanliness. If you want to play alternating B double flats and A flats in a key, you COULD write out Ab, A natural, Ab, A natural, etc. It would be the same thing enharmonically. However, that would clutter the page, whereas you could just note the double-flat once and then write the alternating Bbb and Ab, and achieve the same thing with much less confusion and clutter.


For the diminished topic: 1 b3 b5 bb7 is a fully diminished 7. A diminished triad is 1 b3 b5.

Half-diminished appears frequently in two places: as the vii half-diminished (a substitute for the dominant) in a major chord progression, and as the ii7b5 in minor. If you are unclear about those terms, please post back

The fully diminished appears as the vii fully-diminished in a minor chord progression. It is also a substitute for the dominant. You may notice that the intervals in this chord are all a minor third apart from their closest neighbor. This means that any note could be the root of a fully diminished chord, which opens up lots of modulating possibilities. By starting in a given key, playing the vii fully-diminished, and using a different note as the root, you can move right in to a new key.
(Slightly outdated) Electronic and classical compositions by m'self: Check 'em out
#11
For all practical purposes a double flat is no differant than the letter name below it, and vice versa for double sharp. When playing on a keyboard, there is no differance bettween a B double flat and C.

Many instrumentalists (other than pianists) may argue that there is in fact a differance between the pitches. And they may be right, if you talk to particular music theorists and physicists. Many claim that there is a differance in frequency (though minute) between say, an F double sharp and a G natural. But for all practical purposes (practicality is the key, here) double flats and sharps are the epitome of the inefficiency and lunacy of music theory.

Try playingRachmaninov's Prelude in C# Minor, and soon double sharps make about as much sense as the Iraq war.
#12
Quote by 5/4
For all practical purposes a double flat is no differant than the letter name below it, and vice versa for double sharp. When playing on a keyboard, there is no differance bettween a B double flat and C.

Many instrumentalists (other than pianists) may argue that there is in fact a differance between the pitches. And they may be right, if you talk to particular music theorists and physicists. Many claim that there is a differance in frequency (though minute) between say, an F double sharp and a G natural. But for all practical purposes (practicality is the key, here) double flats and sharps are the epitome of the inefficiency and lunacy of music theory.

Try playingRachmaninov's Prelude in C# Minor, and soon double sharps make about as much sense as the Iraq war.
Then obviously to you Bb and A# are exactly the right note? Double sharps and double flats might be enharmonically the same as a tone below or above, but it makes sense if you start thinking about degrees and modes of scales other then the major scale. Some scales/modes you can only describe by saing double flat (or double sharp).

The third degree of the inverse enigmatic minor is a double flat. But really, as if anyone (apart from verdi who created that scale) would ever use it.

And no, Bbb will sound exactly the same as an A, there is no difference in frequency.
        ,
        |\
[U]        | |                     [/U]
[U]        |/     .-.              [/U]
[U]       /|_     `-’       |      [/U]
[U]      //| \      |       |      [/U]
[U]     | \|_ |     |     .-|      [/U]
      *-|-*    (_)     `-’
        |
        L.
#13
Quote by demonofthenight
And no, Bbb will sound exactly the same as an A, there is no difference in frequency.



Only in equal temperament.
Founder of Jaco society

[22:08:23] <Confusius> I wish I was a bassist
[22:08:26] <Confusius> you fuckers look cool


Want to know how to play bass in jazz? Read this.
#14
Quote by sinan90
Only in equal temperament.
Well, yeah, microtonal music doesn't count.
        ,
        |\
[U]        | |                     [/U]
[U]        |/     .-.              [/U]
[U]       /|_     `-’       |      [/U]
[U]      //| \      |       |      [/U]
[U]     | \|_ |     |     .-|      [/U]
      *-|-*    (_)     `-’
        |
        L.
#15
There are certain scales and whatnot that can only be expressed using a double flat or a double sharp. Its for theory purposes. The notes are enharmonic (the same note but spelled differently), yet sometimes notes cannot repeat, thus forcing a double flat or double sharp. Try the A# major scale.

Not to hi-jack the thread here, but I would like to bring up another topic. Ive heard of imaginary scales (such as A#), but arent they used when dealing with concert keys and stuff like that? I have heard there are 12 Keys. 12 or 13, but none of them contain a double flat or double sharp. Surely there are places where double sharps and double flats are commonly used?

If you want to jam in/around Mooresville NC message me.
#16
Quote by demonofthenight
Well, yeah, microtonal music doesn't count.


Says who?
#17
Quote by 5/4
Says who?


We're dealing with Western 12-tone music.
Quote by dudetheman
So what? I wasted like 5 minutes watching DaddyTwoFoot's avatar.


Metalheads are the worst thing that ever happened to metal.
#18
They are not necessarily the same. They will have a different overtone series based on how the note resolves properly and need to be treated as such.
Quote by nightwind
You must never double the leading tone ever. Failure to comply will result in a fugue related death.
#19
Whats an overtone series?
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#20
Quote by Ænimus Prime
Whats an overtone series?

http://www.smu.edu/totw/overtone.htm

It is also important to know that every note is divided into 9 equal parts, and therefore does not divide evenly in half. The difference of 1/9th is surprisingly significant. Try looking into electronic wave synthesis music and maybe dick around with Audacity a bit and you'll see it illustrated quite clearly.

Differences like that matter a lot, and the OP calling double flats "retarded" is ignorant on so many levels that I don't even want to try to convince him.
Quote by nightwind
You must never double the leading tone ever. Failure to comply will result in a fugue related death.
#21
Quote by DaddyTwoFoot
We're dealing with Western 12-tone music.


Ultimate-Guitar: Your source for Western 12-tone music.

A few cents DOES make a tonal differance, whether you like it or not. There is a differance between F# and Gb -- it's just imperceptable when using a tempered-tuned piano.

Remember that thing called a bend? You may or may not have performed one on your guitar before. You should take notice of the varying frequencies between the note you start on, and the note you bend it. It could make a world of differance.

But this is one of those subjects that can be argued until the end times: theorists vs. theorists; it eventually devolves into coffee and donuts.
#22
Quote by 5/4
Ultimate-Guitar: Your source for Western 12-tone music.

A few cents DOES make a tonal differance, whether you like it or not. There is a differance between F# and Gb -- it's just imperceptable when using a tempered-tuned piano.

Remember that thing called a bend? You may or may not have performed one on your guitar before. You should take notice of the varying frequencies between the note you start on, and the note you bend it. It could make a world of differance.

But this is one of those subjects that can be argued until the end times: theorists vs. theorists; it eventually devolves into coffee and donuts.


I think it's fairly safe to assume that we shouldn't go into semantics and count microtones when it comes to double flats and sharps, because that would be ridiculous. Properly, there is no audible difference at all between F and Gbb. In short, we aren't talking about microtones, we're talking about double sharps and flats (not a double flat a few cents sharp).
Quote by dudetheman
So what? I wasted like 5 minutes watching DaddyTwoFoot's avatar.


Metalheads are the worst thing that ever happened to metal.
Last edited by DaddyTwoFoot at Oct 22, 2007,
#23
Quote by DaddyTwoFoot
I think it's fairly safe to assume that we shouldn't go into semantics and count microtones when it comes to double flats and sharps, because that would be ridiculous.

It is sillier not to. Every composer who has written a piano concerto has had to deal with how to tune the instruments best, given that a properly tuned piano is a few hz sharp as it gets lower, and a few hz flat as it gets higher. It's a major part of classical performance. Electronic musicians specifically manipulate the differences in enharmonic tones. Dismissing concepts like this is somewhat irresponsible behavior for a musician.
Quote by nightwind
You must never double the leading tone ever. Failure to comply will result in a fugue related death.
#24
troyponce, could you explain how each note is divided into 9 equal parts?

Also, after reading about the overtone series in that link and on wikipedia, I would also like you to explain how enharmonic notes have different overtone series. (in fact I already knew what the overtone or harmonic series was, I thought you must have been reffering to something else).
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#25
Quote by Ænimus Prime
troyponce, could you explain how each note is divided into 9 equal parts?

Also, after reading about the overtone series in that link and on wikipedia, I would also like you to explain how enharmonic notes have different overtone series. (in fact I already knew what the overtone or harmonic series was, I thought you must have been reffering to something else).

Notes that are called enharmonic can be off pitch of each other by almost a quarter of a tone, which is very significant even to an untrained ear. When there is a discrepancy between tones even smaller than that, it still affects the way that the chord wants to be resolved, and therefore you could end up going up a minor third instead of a major third to find the proper overtone for a note, which throws off the rest of the pattern above it as well.

As for how notes are divided into 9 equal parts, I regret to inform you that I forgot the logic behind that one. I know it is rooted in the frequencies itself, but I can't remember the details. I'll talk to my music prof on Wednesday and ask him to run it by me again. PM me if you are still interested then, because I'm quite forgetful.
Quote by nightwind
You must never double the leading tone ever. Failure to comply will result in a fugue related death.
#26
Ok you lost me, but I cant help thinking it would just sound out of tune having a note 1/8 of a tone sharp or flat.

On which instruments are things like Gbb and F different?
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#27
Quote by Ænimus Prime
Ok you lost me, but I cant help thinking it would just sound out of tune having a note 1/8 of a tone sharp or flat.

On which instruments are things like Gbb and F different?


Yeah, this is what I've been thinking. They wouldn't really be enharmonic if they're out of tune with each other, because they'd be different frequencies.
Quote by dudetheman
So what? I wasted like 5 minutes watching DaddyTwoFoot's avatar.


Metalheads are the worst thing that ever happened to metal.
#29
I don't see how Gbb, which is A, sounds different than A.

Wouldn't you be playing the same A either way? Unless you were bending one and not the other or something.
#30
It has been a lot of fun watching this thread try to spin off into any of several different directions. But to address the original post, double-flats are absolutely indispensable (as are double-sharps) - just try spelling a Gb minor chord without a double-flat. Yes, the Bbb sounds exactly like an A, but these two notes (remembering that a note is what you see and a tone is what you hear) are worlds apart in function. A chord consisting of the notes Gb-Bbb-Db is a very different animal functionally from a chord consisting of the notes Gb-A-Db.

And that's the whole point: double-flats and double-sharps are all about theoretical function. If you don't understand their function, then you need to woodshed your theory.
All things are difficult before they are easy.
- Dr. Thomas Fuller (British physician, 1654-1734)
Quote by Freepower
For everything you need to know - gpb0216.
#31
In equal temperament, they are exactly the same.

This thread has got me interested and I would like to hear some music in other tuning systems. Anyone got any suggestions?
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#32
Quote by troyponce
(1)Notes that are called enharmonic can be off pitch of each other by almost a quarter of a tone, which is very significant even to an untrained ear. (2)When there is a discrepancy between tones even smaller than that, it still affects the way that the chord wants to be resolved, and therefore you could end up going up a minor third instead of a major third to find the proper overtone for a note, which throws off the rest of the pattern above it as well.

As for how notes are divided into 9 equal parts, (3)I regret to inform you that I forgot the logic behind that one. I know it is rooted in the frequencies itself, but I can't remember the details. I'll talk to my music prof on Wednesday and ask him to run it by me again. PM me if you are still interested then, because I'm quite forgetful.


I have four responces to your statement, one for each bold part, and one as a whole.

1. On a piano, or guitar (unless you are doing bends) the notse will not be off by that much.
2. We are dealing with western musical intervals here.
3. There is none. Enjoy music, don't make an algebra equation out of it.

Finally, all of this talk about how Gb and F# aren't really the same note, even though they are, and how Gbb and F are actually tonally different is nothing but a bunch of elitist crap that makes no sense. Even my guitar teacher, who was once a band teacher, composer and conductor, and plays six different instruments extremely well says the idea of double flats is stupid, and that people should have more important things to worry about.
ALWAYS

WANNA BE WITH YOU,
MAKE BELIEV
E WITH YOU,
AND L
IVE IN HARMONY, HARMONY,



OH, LOOVE!
#33
Quote by SG Man Forever
1. On a piano, or guitar (unless you are doing bends) the notes will not be off by that much.
On a piano they will be identical. Think about it for a second. We produce the tone Gb by pressing the leftmost black key in the group of three. To produce the tone F#, however, we press the leftmost black key in the group of three. In fact, on any fixed-pitch instrument (piano and fretted guitars being very familiar examples of this class), enharmonic tones are identical unless, as you have pointed out, you're manipulating the string in some way while producing the tone. On a piano this is fairly difficult, but it's quite easy to bend a guitar string.
Finally, all of this talk about how Gb and F# aren't really the same note, even though they are,
Well actually, no they're not. A note is what you see and a tone is what you hear. The notes Gb and F# are most certainly different
...and how Gbb and F are actually tonally different is nothing but a bunch of elitist crap that makes no sense.
Again, on fixed-pitch instruments, Gbb and F are identical tonally. They're most assuredly different notes, though.
Even my guitar teacher, who was once a band teacher, composer and conductor, and plays six different instruments extremely well says the idea of double flats is stupid, and that people should have more important things to worry about.
I agree that most people should have more important things to worry about, but musicians need to thoroughly understand double-flats. Maybe your teacher never quite caught on to why they exist and how to use them. I can't imagine anyone with a professional musical background making such a ridiculous statement. You might want to think about finding another teacher.
All things are difficult before they are easy.
- Dr. Thomas Fuller (British physician, 1654-1734)
Quote by Freepower
For everything you need to know - gpb0216.
#34
One sentence will sum this whole thing up... ready...?

Double flat/sharped notes just function differently than natural notes in certain keys.

That's it. You will use them differently. Dbb = C , sure, but it won't sound quite the same depending on the key.

Edit - depending on key/context
Oppression, quiet and Repressed
Swept under the seams
the bed of the acquiesced
where we sleep, insomniac dreams
Last edited by revan1013 at Oct 22, 2007,
#35
Double flats and sharps exist merely to keep scales and chords structurally sound. A Bbb and an A are both 440Hz, but there are many situations in which it is necessary to write Bbb but not A.
People writing songs that voices never shared
No one dared
Disturb the Sound of Silence
#36
Quote by gpb0216

I agree that most people should have more important things to worry about, but musicians need to thoroughly understand double-flats. Maybe your teacher never quite caught on to why they exist and how to use them. I can't imagine anyone with a professional musical background making such a ridiculous statement. You might want to think about finding another teacher.


I don't think he 'never caught on.' That whole buisness about notes being different and tones being the same, let me ask a question. In a Gb minor chord, where it has been said that if it is written Gb Bbb Db, and Gb A Db, then it is written different, but guess what? Music is heard meaning that the tones matter. Gb Bbb Db and Gb A Db may be written differently, but they are heard the same, and in music, what is heard is what ultimately matters, yes or no? So does it matter if I call a note Bbb or A, if an A natural is ultimately heard? No, because it just is overanalisis, especially considering that most of the best stuff I'v written was improv, and I don't need to be thinking about all that mumbo jumbo.
ALWAYS

WANNA BE WITH YOU,
MAKE BELIEV
E WITH YOU,
AND L
IVE IN HARMONY, HARMONY,



OH, LOOVE!
#37
And also, I'm tired of people saying, "All musicians need to thoroughly understand X," "All guitarists should be able to tell the difference between Y and Z," Because it's flat out not true. I'm pretty sure guys like Robert Johnson, Django Rienhardt, Albert King, BB King, Freddie King, and Chuck Berry didn't understand all that crap.

For the matter of finding myself a different teacher, you can go screw yourself, me and my teacher are best freinds, and he's the best musician I know, not just guitarist, musician. He is also an excellent piano player, (and I mean unbelievable) bass player, trumpet player, and also a very skilled mandolin player. I can't remember the sixth instrument, but I think it was a trombone. Anyway, he understands about double flats, and explained it to me the same way someone else did, about the notes resoving a certain way, but added that he thought it was dumb, overly confusing, and was "a broken rule trying to explain how it wasn't broken" as he put it. I hold the same opinion as him.
ALWAYS

WANNA BE WITH YOU,
MAKE BELIEV
E WITH YOU,
AND L
IVE IN HARMONY, HARMONY,



OH, LOOVE!
#38
Quote by SG Man Forever
I don't think he 'never caught on.' That whole buisness about notes being different and tones being the same, let me ask a question. In a Gb minor chord, where it has been said that if it is written Gb Bbb Db, and Gb A Db, then it is written different, but guess what? Music is heard meaning that the tones matter. Gb Bbb Db and Gb A Db may be written differently, but they are heard the same, and in music, what is heard is what ultimately matters, yes or no?
Yes, but if and only if you never have a need to communicate the music intelligently and consistently with another musician in written format. Like it or not, there are long-established conventions that allow us, as just one example, to interpret what Beethoven was hearing all those years ago. Codified key signatures, consistent notation for time signatures, and yes, double-flats and double-sharps, are critical parts of that consistent communication standard.
So does it matter if I call a note Bbb or A, if an A natural is ultimately heard? No, because it just is over-analysis
Again, this is true only if you have no desire or need to communicate with a trained musician
...especially considering that most of the best stuff I'v written was improv, and I don't need to be thinking about all that mumbo jumbo.
Nobody thinks about this "mumbo jumbo" while they're playing. The "mumbo jumbo" becomes useful when you want to intelligently convey what you're playing to musicians on the other side of the world, some or all of whom have actually had formal training. These folks will laugh out loud at you if you notate a Gb minor chord as Gb-A-Db. If you don't mind the ridicule, then don't worry about the "mumbo jumbo" - it's your call all the way.
All things are difficult before they are easy.
- Dr. Thomas Fuller (British physician, 1654-1734)
Quote by Freepower
For everything you need to know - gpb0216.
Last edited by gpb0216 at Oct 23, 2007,
#39
Quote by SG Man Forever
For the matter of finding myself a different teacher, you can go screw yourself, me and my teacher are best freinds
I apologize if my suggestion that you find a teacher who actually respects, understands and teaches formal music theory put a hornet up your ass. By all means, stay with your best friend / teacher.
...and he's the best musician I know, not just guitarist, musician. He is also an excellent piano player, (and I mean unbelievable) bass player, trumpet player, and also a very skilled mandolin player.
I'm sure his skills are impressive.
Anyway, he understands about double flats, and explained it to me the same way someone else did, about the notes resolving a certain way, but added that he thought it was dumb, overly confusing, and was "a broken rule trying to explain how it wasn't broken" as he put it. I hold the same opinion as him.
Again, this "mumbo jumbo" is absolutely useless unless and until you want to intelligently convey information to a trained musician. This I know - if you ever hand me a chart with a Gb minor chord notated Gb-A-Db I'm going to laugh in your face.

Have a great day, and all the best.
gpb
All things are difficult before they are easy.
- Dr. Thomas Fuller (British physician, 1654-1734)
Quote by Freepower
For everything you need to know - gpb0216.
#40
I have to wonder, for those in this thread to whom theory is useless, or stupid; why weigh in on a discussion which is obviously theoretical in nature?

I'm no expert on theory, but I am constantly making efforts to expand my knowledge and understanding. Double flats or sharps are mostly used in sheet music, to reduce the number of accidentals in a given bar, but they also occur in chords and scales, where an already flatted or sharped note in the major scale has been raised or lowered according to the new scale being formed from the major scale.

Enharmonic pitches, like F double sharp and G natural for example will be played on the same key on a piano, or the same fret on a guitar and hence will sound exactly the same in isolation. This is why a double sharp or flat is used and not the natural note which is enharmonic - because in context every note has a role or purpose in the melody or harmony and in notation the double sharp/flat indicates to the performer why that particular note was used.

I don't know if this contextual interpretation is why some people are suggesting that an F# and a Gb would sound slightly different, or whether there is some style of music and/or instruments where there actually are different pitches for enharmonics. I would be inclined to think that it is simply a case of, for example, the F# in a G major scale having a different effect to the Gb of Gb major. Same note, but play each scale and it will sound different.

Theory has its uses and double flats and sharps are indispensible for certain situations. You don't need to know it, playing by ear is fine for those who don't wish to learn theory, but among many others here, I appreciate what a good understanding of music theory can do for my creativity.
Page 1 of 2