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#1
what sort of scales are being played by wes montgomery in his songs? i have the cd "wes montgomery: jazz guitar genius" and it has songs like "tune up" and "round about midnight".

i'm pretty unfamiliar with jazz and how it works, it seems to me there are a few key changes during the songs?

what sort of scales are being used bu him to solo in? sometimes it sounds almost dorian, other times aeolian or something, i'm probably wrong though...
#2
The melodic minor scale? I'm not familiar with jazz either.
--S---------
S---H------
--H---R----
S---R---D-
--H---E----
S---R---D- SHRED
--H---E----
S---R---D-
--S---E----
----R---D--
--H---------
S-----------

How many times do you see SHRED in this?
#3
man i have no idea, but i heard jazz theory is the hardest theory to learn.
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#4
Jazz uses just about every scale ever.
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#5
Contrary to popular belief, there are no "jazz" scales. Guitar-pro (god bless that program) might call the melodic minor that "jazz minor," but it is not a jazz specific scale. Also to contrary belief a song can't be in dorian. A song can be based around dorian and have dorian as it's I mode, but a song cannot be exclusively in dorian, as the mode will change when the chord under it changes, whether you like it or not.

And don't get confused, modes ARE NOT scales and SHOULD NOT be treated as such.

Now to answer the T/S, if I wanted to sound "jazz," I would use a lot of syncopation (make you sound all groovy) and study some smart jazzers licks and phrasing and probably use the 7 modes. Tone is also another important thing for jazz guitar, but ask that in the guitar forums. Don't expect there to be a magic scale and that no matter what you play you will always sound "jazz," it won't happen.
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Last edited by demonofthenight at Oct 22, 2007,
#7
^+1. There is no definite "jazz" scale, much like the way there isn't any "metal" scale. However, when phrased right, Melodic minor can sound very "jazz"-y, but this is applicable for scales and modes.
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#8
A lot of what Wes did was based on the arpeggios of the chords, and that's always the best place the start when just learning a jazz standard for the first time.
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#9
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my neew year reslosutions are not too drikn as much lol.

happy new yeeae guyas.
#10
Quote by demonofthenight
Also to contrary belief a song can't be in dorian. A song can be based around dorian and have dorian as it's I mode, but a song cannot be exclusively in dorian, as the mode will change when the chord under it changes, whether you like it or not.

And don't get confused, modes ARE NOT scales and SHOULD NOT be treated as such.


Not any more than any other scale, reight?

And also, why not?
#11
Quote by demonofthenight


And don't get confused, modes ARE NOT scales and SHOULD NOT be treated as such.


Hunh? Where'd you get that from? Modes definitely ARE scales. Separate scales.
Each with a different scale formula. Each with different scale degrees that make the
same notes function in entirely different ways. Modes of each other are related
scales, but still separate and individual scales on thier own.
#12
The hell are you talking about? Modes are diatonic scales.
The scales most fundamental to jazz are the major (ionian), minor (aeolian), and mixolydian. The lydian mode is also kind of important, particularly due to the importance of lydian chords and lydian dominants (7#11). THe dorian mode makes a strange pet fellow for soloing but it's not as common as it is in "rock", so to speak.
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#13
Quote by edg
Jazz harmony can be defines with only 4 scales: Major, Melodic Minor, Diminshed
and Whole Tone. Most likely what you'll hear is something based on those and
a lot of chromaticism.


what about dominant and minor?
#14
Quote by zerohero
man i have no idea, but i heard jazz theory is the hardest theory to learn.

well jazz theororists would like you to believe that
#16
Quote by edg
What about them? They'd fall under major scale harmony which would include the
modes of the major scale.


Technically, sure I guess you could look at it that way. When I see a dominant chord... im thinking dominant scale. Yup its a mode of the Major.... but im not thinking Major, Im thinking dominant. A7 ... A dominant scale (Mixolydian)
#17
I think there needs to be better terminology somehow. Usually when I use major
scale I mean the whole system, not just the Ionion mode of the major scale. There's
not really a clear way of saying the system vs the mode which is one of the things
I think screws people up on modes.

I suppose you could say most jazz harmony is based on ... 17 different scales. But
that sure seems harder and doesn't really reflect the 4 underlying systems that
make it easier to tie it all together.
#18
Jazz theory is just... theory. It's the same theory that all other Western music adheres to.

I'm not exactly sure why you're refering to the mixolydian mode as the "dominant" scale, either. All modes of the major scale have a naturally occuring dominant chord in them somewhere, the mixolydian mode just happens to have it at the root.
People writing songs that voices never shared
No one dared
Disturb the Sound of Silence
#19
Quote by edg
I think there needs to be better terminology somehow. Usually when I use major
scale I mean the whole system, not just the Ionion mode of the major scale. There's
not really a clear way of saying the system vs the mode which is one of the things
I think screws people up on modes.

I suppose you could say most jazz harmony is based on ... 17 different scales. But
that sure seems harder and doesn't really reflect the 4 underlying systems that
make it easier to tie it all together.



Personally I think of the MAIN scales as Major, minor, and Dominant..... then the other scales I see as belonging to those families... but with different shades (alterations)
So 3 systems rather than 4.

For instance Lydian is in the Major family, but with a slight color change with the #11. Dorian is in the minor family but with the color change of a raised 6th (or natural 6 if you prefer)
The diminished and whole tone scales give you an altered dominant sound. Lydian Dominant, and melodic minor are most commonly used over altered dominant chords as well... so again dominant family.
The key for me is that I relate them back to the dominant family, becuase thats where I would apply them.
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Oct 23, 2007,
#20
Quote by Me2NiK
Jazz theory is just... theory. It's the same theory that all other Western music adheres to.

I'm not exactly sure why you're refering to the mixolydian mode as the "dominant" scale, either. All modes of the major scale have a naturally occuring dominant chord in them somewhere, the mixolydian mode just happens to have it at the root.



Same theory... different lingo

Why call it the dominant scale ? simple..... I see an E dominant 7th.... I can think E dominant scale ( I can think of it as Mixolydian as well.... just 2 terms that mean the same thing)

In my jazz studies program, my instructors often refered to it as the dominant scale. In classical based classes, they called it Mixolydian. it doesnt really matter, they are the same scale. Its just a relationship thing..... dominant chord... dominant scale. Easy to think of.
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Oct 23, 2007,
#21
My argument from 3 other threads (and at least 9 other post's) stands

Scales are a group of any notes, anything. Modes are a group of intervals that correspond melodically with each other and harmonically with a chord. Very different, as modes are always associated with a scale.

Every theorist knows about the all important relationship between modes and chords. So you must know that modes change whenever the chord changes (whether you like it or not)?

But the scale will only change when you deliberatly want it to change (keychange). You wouldn't normally change key that much (maybe once or twice throughout your song), but the modes will change just about every bar, as that is when chord changes normally happen.

Don't treat modes as scales, a song cannot be written exclusively in one mode. It can be based around one mode, and have that mode as the I chord, but that doesn't constitute that it's written in that mode.

And a dominant scale/mode is ANY (yes any) scale/mode with both a major third and a minor seventh and most likely a perfect fifth. Not just the mixolydian.
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#22
Ha. Well, you can argue all you want, but you're making up your own
definition of a scale. It's NOT just a group of notes. A scale also specifies the
function of every note -- which is the scale degree.

At any rate, anyone who wants to learn jazz should pick up a good book and not
try to learn it here.
#23
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#24
Scales don't exist. Scales are groupings of notes that we have decided sound nice together. A diatonic scale is a group of notes that we have decided sound nice together that adhere to clusters of TTS and TTTS.
Chord theory is based on that principle.
People writing songs that voices never shared
No one dared
Disturb the Sound of Silence
#25
Jazz uses like every single scale and arpeggios and such. I think they use arpeggios of w/e chord is being played and use passing tones. Or they used the right mode for the right chord. I dont play any jazz stuff, i've attempted to learn some "jazz theory". Basically "jazz theory" is having a good knowledge of scales, modes, and arpeggios/chords. Which is basically just knowing alot of regular theory cuz jazz theory is regular theory.
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#26
Quote by Me2NiK
Scales don't exist. Scales are groupings of notes that we have decided sound nice together.


We also decided to call them scales. They exist to all that use them.

Whats your point exactly with a statement like that?
#27
Quote by edg
Ha. Well, you can argue all you want, but you're making up your own
definition of a scale. It's NOT just a group of notes. A scale also specifies the
function of every note -- which is the scale degree.
To simplify, a scale degree is just the name given to each note of the scale, IE 1st (i or I) degree for the first note of the scale and 2nd (ii or II) for the note after. In the end, Me2NiK is right. Scales are just grouping of notes that sound good together.

Quote by edg
At any rate, anyone who wants to learn jazz should pick up a good book and not try to learn it here.
+*ridiculously large number*
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#28
Quote by demonofthenight
To simplify, a scale degree is just the name given to each note of the scale, IE 1st (i or I) degree for the first note of the scale and 2nd (ii or II) for the note after. In the end, Me2NiK is right. Scales are just grouping of notes that sound good together.

+*ridiculously large number*


yeah, and the point is ?
#29
Quote by GuitarMunky
yeah, and the point is ?
Must I tell you to reread all my posts?

Scales are not modes.

Read jazz books and listen to jazz songs to sound jazzy, don't look for special scales.
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#30
"In music, a scale is a collection of musical notes that provides material for part or all of a musical work. Scales are ordered in pitch or pitch class, with their ordering providing a measure of musical distance. Scales differ from modes in that scales do not have a primary or "tonic" note. Thus a single scale can have many different modes, depending on which of its notes is chosen as primary."

That seems to explain it a whole lot better imo.
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#31
^Many can argue that scales do infact have a tonic or root. It is C Major afterall.
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#32
Quote by demonofthenight
Must I tell you to reread all my posts?

Scales are not modes.

Read jazz books and listen to jazz songs to sound jazzy, don't look for special scales.


It sounds to me like your point is to cause controversy.

The reality is that for all practical purposes, scales and modes work very much the same way. In fact the Major SCALE is a MODE.

The points your trying to make are useless, and seem only to be brought up for the purpose of creating an argument.
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Oct 24, 2007,
#33
Quote by demonofthenight
Also to contrary belief a song can't be in dorian. A song can be based around dorian and have dorian as it's I mode, but a song cannot be exclusively in dorian, as the mode will change when the chord under it changes, whether you like it or not.


Have you ever played Impressions by Coltrane?

probably not, because ITS IN DORIAN...... exclusively. (whether you like it or not).
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Oct 24, 2007,
#34
Quote by GuitarMunky
Have you ever played Impressions by Coltrane?

probably not, because ITS IN DORIAN...... exclusively. (whether you like it or not).
So its a one chord song based around only one chord? Interesting...

EDIT: Just by studying the sheet music I found, I found 2 different modes in the first 8 bars. The first four bars are in E dorian (because of the bass riff more than the piano chords), then the next four are in B Aeolian. I can even hear a little phrygian (probably F# phrygian) in there, and I wouldn't be suprised if there was an A mixolydian. Listen to it for yourself http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUzFbT5JT1M

Now why would you say its exclusively in dorian when it's obviously not? I can guess it's probably based around dorian, as it starts on dorian, but its not exclusively in dorian.

You do know what a mode is right, guitar munky? Because your spouting more **** than a toilet drain.
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Last edited by demonofthenight at Oct 25, 2007,
#35
Quote by demonofthenight
So its a one chord song based around only one chord? Interesting...

EDIT: Just by studying the sheet music I found, I found 2 different modes in the first 8 bars. The first four bars are in E dorian (because of the bass riff more than the piano chords), then the next four are in B Aeolian. I can even hear a little phrygian (probably F# phrygian) in there, and I wouldn't be suprised if there was an A mixolydian. Listen to it for yourself http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUzFbT5JT1M

Now why would you say its exclusively in dorian when it's obviously not? I can guess it's probably based around dorian, as it starts on dorian, but its not exclusively in dorian.

You do know what a mode is right, guitar munky? Because your spouting more **** than a toilet drain.


first of all im looking at the version in the real book, Volume 1. So any arguments should be made with the same version.

The melody for the 1st 8 bars is D dorian, it contains a B, not a Bb at is would in aeolian. then it shifts up a 1/2 step to Eb dorian.
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Oct 25, 2007,
#36
Quote by GuitarMunky
The melody for the 1st 8 bars is D dorian, it contains a B, not a Bb at is would in aeolian. then it shifts up a 1/2 step to Eb dorian.



Sounds like someone stole from So What
Founder of Jaco society

[22:08:23] <Confusius> I wish I was a bassist
[22:08:26] <Confusius> you fuckers look cool


Want to know how to play bass in jazz? Read this.
#37
Peacekeeping Commitee


constructive arguments please!

what EXACTLY is the argument?
that a mode is not a scale?

i think its fair to say a mode IS a scale, surely any collection of notes is a scale.
you then take the scale intervals and make chords.

i mean... what are chords made from? the Major scale? which is a ???? SCALE!

so, if the major scale is a scale and the minor scale is a scale, then why are the other modes not?

i dont know, but i THOUGHT that the 7 major modes were just the kinda old fashioned church modes..... thats why they have fancy names.

It has been pointed out that it is more difficult to write a song in a mode other than the major or minor. Sure, this is due to how tones resolve... some scales resolve to a root better than others.
if you can write a song in aeolian, then you can write a song in dorian.

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