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#1
I was thinking of buying a Marshall MG 100 HDFX guitar amp head.

But a friend of mine asked me this question:
"Isn't the max power that you'll get from it be ALWAYS 100 watts, independently of how many cabinets you plug into it?"

And i stopped right there. My question is the same: if i buy this Marshall head and one cabinet, and later add a second cabinet, won't the rig get louder and more powerful?

Or will i be stuck with a 100-watt-power limit, because the head only distributes the power between the cabinets, instead of ADDING it?

Thank you for your help!
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#2
1.) Don't get that head
2.) The max mean/RMS power output will always be 100w
3.) You do not need 100w
4.) You do not need a stack
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#4
Quote by mcw00t
1.) Don't get that head
2.) The max mean/RMS power output will always be 100w
3.) You do not need 100w
4.) You do not need a stack



2) RMS means max watts clean. On tube amps this means watts before break up. My amp is 30 watt RMS, but 60 watt Max.

Though:
You don't need 100 watt. Not a stack either. And the MG is an awful amp.
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#5
doesnt anyone read any of the other million posts about the marshall mgs? think there should be a big popup when you load UG up that says dont buy an mg they are ****e
#6
i love my MG
:stickpoke :stickpoke :stickpoke :stickpoke :stickpoke :stickpoke :stickpoke :stickpoke :stickpoke
#7
id highly suggest looking into other amps first the marshall MG is just an old park amp refurbished with the marshall logo and they honestly have horrid tones and tend to break down after 6 months of use, id stay away from Crate and Marshall Solid State amps, if the amp doesnt have a stand by and a power switch stay away, id look into maybe marshall jcm2000 and 900 combos, peavy combos, or if you are a solid state fan maybe a line 6 flextone II or VoxADVTs
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#8
Quote by Gabel
2) RMS means max watts clean. On tube amps this means watts before break up. My amp is 30 watt RMS, but 60 watt Max.

Though:
You don't need 100 watt. Not a stack either. And the MG is an awful amp.


+1
For the money, there are way better tube amps available than a MG. Don't get caught up by the "I gotta have a Marshall half-stack" syndrome. You could get a small tube combo & get an extra cab later. If you state your budget & styles of music you want to play, there's a lot of people here that could steer you in the right direction.
Listen to Gabel. His opinion is much-respected on UG. Wise beyond his years....
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#9
Quote by riffhog
+1
For the money, there are way better tube amps available than a MG. Don't get caught up by the "I gotta have a Marshall half-stack" syndrome. You could get a small tube combo & get an extra cab later. If you state your budget & styles of music you want to play, there's a lot of people here that could steer you in the right direction.
Listen to Gabel. His opinion is much-respected on UG. Wise beyond his years....


You too Riffhog

Oh and sigged!
Quote by stratman_13
It's okay Gabel. You kick ass.



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#10
Quote by riffhog
+1
For the money, there are way better tube amps available than a MG. Don't get caught up by the "I gotta have a Marshall half-stack" syndrome. You could get a small tube combo & get an extra cab later. If you state your budget & styles of music you want to play, there's a lot of people here that could steer you in the right direction.
Listen to Gabel. His opinion is much-respected on UG. Wise beyond his years....


Okay, thank you for the help!

Here you go:
- I have a very small budget, so please recommend me an amp with a good price/quality ratio. I don't want to put a money limit, but saving money is a priority for me.
- I am a guitar noob, i don't play very well. I've started playing in 2006 Christmas, and my current amp is a Fender Frontman 15G. I want to get a new amp because the Fender hasn't high volume and has a ridiculously low gain tolerance. I always have to use my friends DJ set to pump my guitar's volume, and if i use gain in overdrive or distortion (compact effects pedals), i get a HORRIBLE noise, that gets worse as i add more gain.
- I want a reliable amp, good for gigs (mind my bass player uses a 100-watt Fender Rumble, so i have to use DJ stuff and other sound sets to pump my guitar power) but also to practice at home (garage).
- I'm very happy with the sound i get from my guitar (and my friends too). I'm a rhythm guitar player, and play stuff from: Ramones, Nirvana, the pillows, Green Day, Pearl Jam, lostprophets, Red Hot Chili Peppers... I play essentially rock, old-school and new-school punk, and a little bit of alternative metal (like TooL, for example).
- A combo amp is not a must for me, i'm getting the effects pedals i want along my way, so... Probably i already have the effects combo amps have. But i'm also perfectly okay with getting a combo amp!

So... I just want to state again: I SUCK AT GUITAR PLAYING, but i really need a good amp, powerful, reliable, versatile (maybe upgradable with cabs or something), tube or non-tube (whatever. your choice!), and nice.
EDIT: and with a friendly price!

Thank you, riffhog and Gabel !
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#11
Quote by Gabel
2) RMS means max watts clean. On tube amps this means watts before break up. My amp is 30 watt RMS, but 60 watt Max.

Though:
You don't need 100 watt. Not a stack either. And the MG is an awful amp.

-1 on the first bit, sorry, but learn what the abbrviation RMS means.

+1 on the second bit
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#12
Quote by mcw00t
-1 on the first bit, sorry, but learn what the abbrviation RMS means.

someone challenging Gabel? But God is infallable!
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#13
Quote by Yngwi3
someone challenging Gabel? But God is infallable!

Yes, I am challenging Gabel.

I've been through this particular argument many many times. When tubes are pushed into saturation, they do give SLIGHTLY more power than before saturation. But the whole idea of saturation is that the device cannot supply any more current from its output.

There appears to be a huge confusion between the phrases RMS and mean as well. The acronym RMS can only be used when referring to voltages and currents, not power.

When talking about power output, you should be using mean. The MEAN power output is the output rating of the amp, ie, you have a 50w amp, your max mean power output is 50w before breakup. Yes, the tubes will supply slightly more power than this after breakup, but not that much. The max, or peak, power output of the amp would be 100w before breakup, and again, this would increase SLIGHTLY after breakup.
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#14
hah alright then- so how mcuh extra power do valves produce?
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#15
Quote by Yngwi3
hah alright then- so how mcuh extra power do valves produce?

I'm really not sure, but it is definately nowhere near double. I had my 30w amp up to max volume, with 70w peak handling speakers. Therefore the peak of my amp before breakup would have been 60w, and my speakers did not start mechanically clipping, therefore, it didn't output more than 10w extra
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#16
How do you then explain that you should always get attenuators rated 1,5 times your amp max output.

Or that Orange has stated that the Rocker is rated 30 watts clean, 60 watt peak? Or the Rockerverb 50 is rated 50 watt clean 80 watt peak? Or that speakers are rated at clean output, so a 30 watt speaker can actually handle 60 watt max?

Threadstarter, check out these amps:
http://www.thomann.de/se/peavey_classic_30.htm
http://www.thomann.de/se/orange_tiny_terror.htm
with these cabs
http://www.thomann.de/se/orange_ppc112.htm
http://www.thomann.de/se/harley_benton_g212_vintage.htm

They should do most things you want. You could also get an overdrive pedal like a Visual Sound Jekyll & Hyde
Quote by stratman_13
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Last edited by Gabel at Oct 31, 2007,
#17
Quote by Linkerman
Okay, thank you for the help!

Here you go:
- I have a very small budget, so please recommend me an amp with a good price/quality ratio. I don't want to put a money limit, but saving money is a priority for me.
- I am a guitar noob, i don't play very well. I've started playing in 2006 Christmas, and my current amp is a Fender Frontman 15G. I want to get a new amp because the Fender hasn't high volume and has a ridiculously low gain tolerance. I always have to use my friends DJ set to pump my guitar's volume, and if i use gain in overdrive or distortion (compact effects pedals), i get a HORRIBLE noise, that gets worse as i add more gain.
- I want a reliable amp, good for gigs (mind my bass player uses a 100-watt Fender Rumble, so i have to use DJ stuff and other sound sets to pump my guitar power) but also to practice at home (garage).
- I'm very happy with the sound i get from my guitar (and my friends too). I'm a rhythm guitar player, and play stuff from: Ramones, Nirvana, the pillows, Green Day, Pearl Jam, lostprophets, Red Hot Chili Peppers... I play essentially rock, old-school and new-school punk, and a little bit of alternative metal (like TooL, for example).
- A combo amp is not a must for me, i'm getting the effects pedals i want along my way, so... Probably i already have the effects combo amps have. But i'm also perfectly okay with getting a combo amp!

So... I just want to state again: I SUCK AT GUITAR PLAYING, but i really need a good amp, powerful, reliable, versatile (maybe upgradable with cabs or something), tube or non-tube (whatever. your choice!), and nice.
EDIT: and with a friendly price!

Thank you, riffhog and Gabel !


I'd suggest either a Peavey Envoy or, budget permitting, a smallish valve amp like an Orange Tiny Terrror, Fender Blues Junior or (slightly cheaper) an Epi Valve Junior.
#18
Well I checked what the price for an MG100 was so the ones I recommended were those in the same pricerange.
Quote by stratman_13
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#19
Quote by mcw00t
Yes, I am challenging Gabel.

I've been through this particular argument many many times. When tubes are pushed into saturation, they do give SLIGHTLY more power than before saturation. But the whole idea of saturation is that the device cannot supply any more current from its output.

There appears to be a huge confusion between the phrases RMS and mean as well. The acronym RMS can only be used when referring to voltages and currents, not power.

When talking about power output, you should be using mean. The MEAN power output is the output rating of the amp, ie, you have a 50w amp, your max mean power output is 50w before breakup. Yes, the tubes will supply slightly more power than this after breakup, but not that much. The max, or peak, power output of the amp would be 100w before breakup, and again, this would increase SLIGHTLY after breakup.

Actually, you're also wrong.

Watts is not a rating of power output, it's one of power consumption. Think of a light bulb. A 100 watt light bulb consumes 100 watts of power and puts out a certain number of lumens. There's a relationship between power consumption and signal output, but watts is not actually a measurement of output. And think of RMS rating as an average. The reason you don't see RMS/Max ratings on guitar amplifiers like you do car audio amplifiers is that the signal going through a guitar amplifier is pretty much a constant, rather than the dynamic variations that can occur with a car amp. Think of when headlights dim in a poorly wired car when power consumption suddenly spikes due to sudden loudness or heavy bass. RMS is NOT indicative of when your amp will break up. You really should throw out the whole RMS/max power discussion entirely. Not to mention, unless you're told by the manufacturer what the peak and RMS ratings are, it's impossible to tell unless you have specific testing equipment - you can see wattage peaks that are 3 times higher than the RMS rating of an amp.

Oh, and stop thinking of getting an MG halfstack. They're pieces of shit.
Hi, I'm Peter
Last edited by Dirk Gently at Oct 31, 2007,
#21
Dirk, when you are talking about guitar amplifiers, it does talk about output. The power output from the power amp is used to drive the speakers. It obviously depends on the load, which is why you need to impedance match, but you can use the term power output. And yes, in the second part of your argument Dirk, you are right. The phases of the voltage and current peaks are 90 degrees out of phase but usually, the power peaks are 2 times the rated power output.
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#22
^ Interesting. I'm no electrician, so I just pick things up here and there. So, if my understanding is correct, a watt measures joules per second, and joule is a measurement of work done. Hmm. So that could go for either consumption or output? Seems kind of strange.
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#23
Quote by Dirk Gently
^ Interesting. I'm no electrician, so I just pick things up here and there. So, if my understanding is correct, a watt measures joules per second, and joule is a measurement of work done. Hmm. So that could go for either consumption or output? Seems kind of strange.

It's talked about at output, as the pentode, or triode controls the amount of current at its output, dependent on the voltage at the input. It's all to do with transconductance, and I'll explain it all if you want, but not now, I gotta get off to work

Just when talking about amplifier systems, the power drawn from the supply (ie, your wall) =/= the power delivered to the speaker. The power at the output of the tube, however is dissipated through the speaker, so all of the outputted energy is used to move the speaker. (bar resistances in wires etc)
OMG!!! They're playing One!!!!!11fade to black11one11

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Electronics God of the Laney Cult

My Gear:

Ibanez RG370DX
Laney VC30-212
Dunlop Crybaby
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Ibanez TS9DX
#24
Guys, I don't think any of that matters to him. He wanted to buy an MG halfstack, so I don't the the definition of RMS or the number of jouels per seccond is on his mind.

TS, I'd look at mabye a Peavy Valveking 112, but play it first; some people don't like their tone. You could also look at a Randall RG50TC. Try to find either used, if you can. They are both 50 watt all-tube combo amps, and could be hooked up to a speaker cabinet later, when you can afford one, or need one.

Just to correct for former impression, a "combo" amp is just an amp with a speaker in the enclosure. "Combo" dosn't mean "built in effects", although some combo amps and amp heads to have built in effects.

On your question concerning multiple cabs, your amp will only ever put out 100 watts. If you plug it into a 12" speaker, it will put 100 watts in to the 12" speaker. If you plug into 4 4x12" cabs, you'll put 100 watts total into 16 speakers. The real differance is # of speakers is how much air you're moving, and projection. A 4x12" typically will project more, and have fuller bass response, than a 1x12" or a 2x12". However, at your current playing level, I don't think you need either. Stick with a 1x12" or 1x10" combo for now, and you can upgrade down the line once you know how much projection and response you need.

PS: Those 2 50 watt tube amps I reccomended will be PLEANTY loud for garage jamming, so don't worry!
#25
Quote by Gabel
Threadstarter, check out these amps:
http://www.thomann.de/se/peavey_classic_30.htm
http://www.thomann.de/se/orange_tiny_terror.htm
with these cabs
http://www.thomann.de/se/orange_ppc112.htm
http://www.thomann.de/se/harley_benton_g212_vintage.htm

They should do most things you want. You could also get an overdrive pedal like a Visual Sound Jekyll & Hyde



Okay, i checked those amps and respective cabs...

Maybe i'll buy one of those cabs cab first and use my Fender Frontman 15G as a head for a while... But the heads you recommended seem very low powerful... 7/15 and 30 watts...? Don't you think i need a 200-watt head? Or are heads that powerful out of budget?
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#26
Quote by Linkerman
But the heads you recommended seem very low powerful... 7/15 and 30 watts...? Don't you think i need a 200-watt head? Or are heads that powerful out of budget?




hell no
30 watts valve is deafening when cranked.
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#27
Well to start with.

The Frontman G into the cab won't work, it will sound like crap. Plus it won't do much difference to the sound.

Well I have a 30 watt (tube) Orange Rocker 30 and I played a gig (unmiced) for 600 people on 3. 30 watts is loud enough. So is the 7/15 (a guy had the Tiny Terror CRANKED in a store on the 7 watt mode and you had to scream). 200 watt? I doubt anybody (unless you need headroom, which you don't need to worry about) would need more than 30 watts tube (15 would do anything up to huge gigs, but then the gigs are so large so it's gonna be miced anyway).
Quote by stratman_13
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#28
Quote by Gabel
Well to start with.

The Frontman G into the cab won't work, it will sound like crap. Plus it won't do much difference to the sound.

Well I have a 30 watt (tube) Orange Rocker 30 and I played a gig (unmiced) for 600 people on 3. 30 watts is loud enough. So is the 7/15 (a guy had the Tiny Terror CRANKED in a store on the 7 watt mode and you had to scream). 200 watt? I doubt anybody (unless you need headroom, which you don't need to worry about) would need more than 30 watts tube (15 would do anything up to huge gigs, but then the gigs are so large so it's gonna be miced anyway).


Seriously? I use 50w tubes on 4 at gigs. Not very big ones either...
...
#29
Well depends on how loud the amp is. But yes my Orange was at 3.
Quote by stratman_13
It's okay Gabel. You kick ass.



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#30
Quote by Gabel
2) RMS means max watts clean. On tube amps this means watts before break up. My amp is 30 watt RMS, but 60 watt Max.

Though:
You don't need 100 watt. Not a stack either. And the MG is an awful amp.

so how do i figure out my amp's max? it's 15w blues jr...
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#31
Quote by Linkerman
I was thinking of buying a Marshall MG 100 HDFX guitar amp head.

But a friend of mine asked me this question:
"Isn't the max power that you'll get from it be ALWAYS 100 watts, independently of how many cabinets you plug into it?"

And i stopped right there. My question is the same: if i buy this Marshall head and one cabinet, and later add a second cabinet, won't the rig get louder and more powerful?

Or will i be stuck with a 100-watt-power limit, because the head only distributes the power between the cabinets, instead of ADDING it?

Thank you for your help!


irrelevant- if you buy an MG, the tone you get from it will always be shitty. that's what you should really be concerned about, rather than some illusory feeling of badassery because you have 100 watts.
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
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#32
Quote by ECistheBest
so how do i figure out my amp's max? it's 15w blues jr...

Don't worry about it
Quote by Gabel
Well depends on how loud the amp is. But yes my Orange was at 3.

Exactly. Some volumes have smoother throw than others. My Boogie goes from almost quiet to deafening in about 1/2 a number. In 35 watt mode, I've never turned it about 4. On the other hand, I've played a Marshall JCM 900 half stack standing directly in front of it at reasonable volume with the master at around 12 o'clock.
Hi, I'm Peter
Last edited by Dirk Gently at Oct 31, 2007,
#33
^lol i wanted to know but okay. there aren't any worries now.
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#34
^ It's just that max wattage is basically how high the amp's power could possibly spike to, and is maintained for only perhaps a matter of milliseconds. It's really a worthless number only used by car amp manufacturers to sell to 16 year old kids tricking out their '89 Civic who don't know any better.
Hi, I'm Peter
#35
^haha. okay. dirk knows what its all about.
Call me "Shot".

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Custom Hand-wired Amplifiers and Effect Pedals.

Est. 2007


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#36
Quote by Gabel
Well to start with.

The Frontman G into the cab won't work, it will sound like crap. Plus it won't do much difference to the sound.

Well I have a 30 watt (tube) Orange Rocker 30 and I played a gig (unmiced) for 600 people on 3. 30 watts is loud enough. So is the 7/15 (a guy had the Tiny Terror CRANKED in a store on the 7 watt mode and you had to scream). 200 watt? I doubt anybody (unless you need headroom, which you don't need to worry about) would need more than 30 watts tube (15 would do anything up to huge gigs, but then the gigs are so large so it's gonna be miced anyway).


Okay, so.. Gabel, if i buy the Orange Tiny Terror and one Orange PPC112 cab, do you think i'll get enough power and a good quality sound (even with effects pedals pumping, and using lots of gain on distortion and/or overdrive)?

And this Orange setup (Tiny Terror + PPC112 cab) is reliable? Will it last many years to come (knowing that i take EXTREMELY good care of my stuff)?

Thank you very, very much for your help, Gabel. I really appreciate it!
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#37
Quote by Dave_Mc
irrelevant- if you buy an MG, the tone you get from it will always be shitty. that's what you should really be concerned about, rather than some illusory feeling of badassery because you have 100 watts.


"Illusory feeling of badassery"? That's the f#@king best!
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#38
Quote by Linkerman
Okay, so.. Gabel, if i buy the Orange Tiny Terror and one Orange PPC112 cab, do you think i'll get enough power and a good quality sound (even with effects pedals pumping, and using lots of gain on distortion and/or overdrive)?

And this Orange setup (Tiny Terror + PPC112 cab) is reliable? Will it last many years to come (knowing that i take EXTREMELY good care of my stuff)?

Thank you very, very much for your help, Gabel. I really appreciate it!


Well they sound REALLY good, especially for the price. They should do msot stuff except EXTREME high gain über death metal.

they are very reliable, being an Orange owner myself.
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#40
Quote by Chinomaster182
^ And yes, you will have enough power to practice and gig with your band.

^Yeah, the TT is way louder than you'd imagine, & the tone kicks serious ass.

Edit: BTW- With a TT, you'll still get Dave's feelings of "badassery"!
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Last edited by riffhog at Oct 31, 2007,
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