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#1
hey ,my mate wants to be a proffesional lead guitarist but he dont wana learn scales. how can i make him get into them becasue there really important. he just plays random notes and see if they fit in the keys. cheers in advance!
#2
Tell him he might as well start slogging his guts out as a bricklayer. If he doesn't think he needs them then he can kiss his dream goodbye.
Quote by Vornik
Thanks for the advice. I'm going to put it, along with your other advice, into a book, the pages of which I will then use to wipe my ass.
#3
Quote by dann_blood
Tell him he might as well start slogging his guts out as a bricklayer. If he doesn't think he needs them then he can kiss his dream goodbye.


Wrong.

You don't have to KNOW the scales if you've got a good ear. Than you can hear if it fits or not.
Quote by 'rockintheblues 14, 2007 2:38 am'
but i really do hate you and hope you and everyone you love is killed in the worst possible ways. i hope i get to spit in your eyes as you let out your final breath
#4
Quote by dann_blood
Tell him he might as well start slogging his guts out as a bricklayer. If he doesn't think he needs them then he can kiss his dream goodbye.


couldnt have put it better
#6
how can i make him get into them


You can't make someone learn scales, and if you are dumb enough to try it, he'll hate it, probably hate you too. I've never practiced a scale in my life except for sax in school, hated every minute of it. I'm still one of the better guitar players in my area, ended up one of the best sax players in the state as a high school kid, and still don't care a thing about scales, theory, modes, tabs you name it. And most of you guys with less than 15 years playing time would have to work your butts off to keep up with me onstage. Without ever practicing scales at all, I could duplicate every note of Stairway to Heaven when I was 15, when it was still a top 10 song on the radio, on an acoustic, I can still duplicate every note of Dire Straits Sultans of Swing, probably on an acoustic but normally I play it electric. I learned it on a nylon string classical guitar. Without practicing scales.

Scales are not required, theory is not required. Sure maybe it's a good thing to learn, but not mandatory and if your friend doesn't want to...

SO WHAT?

Leave the guy alone and let him live his own damn life already.
Hmmm...I wonder what this button does...
#7
Click on my avatar, find my website on my profile, and listen to my tunes. I am an entirely self-taught producer/guitarist/drummer/bassist, and I know not a single scale. And the icing on the cake? I don't suck. This isn't an advertisement for myself, I don't need that... it's just a blatant example that you do not need to 'know' music to play really well or write. I am defender of the notion that natural talent exceeds learned ability. After-all, if ya ain't got it in the first place, you ain't gonna get it. Music is about the feel, and you MUST have that. If you got that, you can do whatever you want!

By the way, I am a professional musician... remember, I don't know a lick of theory nor have I ever had a teacher.

And I have been playing music for 17 years now.
#8
Just let him do what he wants. The odds of him making it as a professional guitarist are slim enough, but don't just try and shatter is condifence. He will realize after a while that scales are important, whether you learn and commit them all to memory, you will still be dealing with them, whether you like it or not, and whether you think you are dealing with them or not. "Random notes that fit in with the key" are likely notes of the scale. Hey! He just learned the notes of <INSERT SCALE HERE>. Congrats.
#9
I know a kid who doesn't know the first thing about theory or a single scale, but he can improvise and/or create solos better then I can:/ he's probably slightly gifted though, or not idk.
#10
Quote by Paleo Pete
You can't make someone learn scales, and if you are dumb enough to try it, he'll hate it, probably hate you too. I've never practiced a scale in my life except for sax in school, hated every minute of it. I'm still one of the better guitar players in my area, ended up one of the best sax players in the state as a high school kid, and still don't care a thing about scales, theory, modes, tabs you name it. And most of you guys with less than 15 years playing time would have to work your butts off to keep up with me onstage. Without ever practicing scales at all, I could duplicate every note of Stairway to Heaven when I was 15, when it was still a top 10 song on the radio, on an acoustic, I can still duplicate every note of Dire Straits Sultans of Swing, probably on an acoustic but normally I play it electric. I learned it on a nylon string classical guitar. Without practicing scales.

Scales are not required, theory is not required. Sure maybe it's a good thing to learn, but not mandatory and if your friend doesn't want to...

SO WHAT?

Leave the guy alone and let him live his own damn life already.

so you can play some intermediate songs without practicing scales, that suddenly means you don't need them? no it doesn't. scales do more than just help you increase your technical ability. they help you increase your creative ability if you learn to use them right.
#11
Spamwise is right, your friend is crazy if he wants to be a "GUITARIST," but if he wants to be in a pop band, tell him he can make it.

You do have to learn scales if you want to be a guitarist, i'm sorry. I'm a guitarist, and improvisation is one of the most important elements, and you can't do that unless you AT LEAST know pentatonics, but then, even if you get really really good at them, your just gonna sound like SRV, which isn't bad, but people get tired of it if your not the first to do it.

He doesn't have to learn scales, but he also doesn't have to play guitar. It's like trying to play the drums but refusing to use sticks, he's just handicapping himself and he'll never know what key to play in, he probably doesn't even know keys <_<
4/4 is just so boring. <_<
#13
You can only get so far without scales. He can get to be professional, but he wouldn't be recognized for being a great guitarist. Not all guitarists know them, but all great guitarists do.
#14
put it this way, scales aren't necassary, but they are only there to help you. an it is handy to know what your ear is listening to. both are equally important music theory and good ears. theory is not mandatory, but it does advance you. and when you walk into a studio as session musician, you have to be quick they'll tell you the key and say ok play a solo over this, and you won't have time to think about note picking
#15
Quote by idahoimmortal
You can only get so far without scales. He can get to be professional, but he wouldn't be recognized for being a great guitarist. Not all guitarists know them, but all great guitarists do.



NOT TRUE. when I find the exceptions, I will let you know.
#16
Quote by WFMedia
NOT TRUE. when I find the exceptions, I will let you know.

You can't find them cause they're on small labels.
#18
Quote by WFMedia
NOT TRUE. when I find the exceptions, I will let you know.

this made made me laugh really hard. So basically, since you know of no exceptions, how is it not true? People point out guys like SRV or Hendrix, but when you really think about it, how many professional guitar players out there? I'm not just talking about those that make it big, but all of them. Tons, for sure. When you think that Hendrix (i don't know about SRV) really had an obsession (which isn't healthy) with guitar greater than most people do, you begin to realize that you can't use him as an excuse.
#19
it boils down to the amount of time your friend spends with his guitar. the less time you have to play the greater the emphasis on productivity becomes, knowing scales, modes theory, techniques increases productivity (the amount of time used to create something).

if you friend plays for hours everyday he'll probably get a feel of which notes gel which don't and which notes create a certain sound or effect. Great but its all time spent learnig stuff other people already know. your choice?

you don't need to learn the scales to know them. you can know them either by sight, sound, or application. if you don't want to learn them atleast know them if that make's any sense at all.
#20
Quote by Ryansb123
hey ,my mate wants to be a proffesional lead guitarist but he dont wana learn scales. how can i make him get into them becasue there really important. he just plays random notes and see if they fit in the keys. cheers in advance!

it depends on what kind of professional he wants to be. If he wants to be in a band that tours and makes a lot of money, then he doesn't need to learn scales.

If he wants to be a studio musician, however... he'd better start learning. NOW.
Banging on a trash can
Drumming on a street light
#21
Quote by Spamwise
this made made me laugh really hard. So basically, since you know of no exceptions, how is it not true? People point out guys like SRV or Hendrix, but when you really think about it, how many professional guitar players out there? I'm not just talking about those that make it big, but all of them. Tons, for sure. When you think that Hendrix (i don't know about SRV) really had an obsession (which isn't healthy) with guitar greater than most people do, you begin to realize that you can't use him as an excuse.



Seriously, just because I don't know of any off-hand, does NOT mean that there are not any. I don't know EVERYTHING without looking into it, after all... and I would use him (hendrix) as an excuse. But seriously, scales are not REQUIRED to make it in music. Ask The Edge from U2, for instance, or Kurt Cobain, or Billy Joe Armstrong - they would agree. Granted, you are not gonna play like Al Pitrelli w/o knowing scales, but that's not what we are talking about. We are talking 'pro' musicians here, in general. The word 'pro' is so broad, anyway, and applies to more than you think... I coverd this in a thread somewhere... but in any case, the fact remains, you CAN be a pro and not know jack about scales. Just remember - there are different levels of being 'pro', and guys of all levels who don't know scales are there.
#22
Even if you can play without scales, I suggest learning theory and what they are if only so you can communicate with other musicians.


Ask The Edge from U2, for instance, or Kurt Cobain, or Billy Joe Armstrong - they would agree.


They all kind of suck honestly.
Quote by marmoseti
Mastering your instrument is being able to play whatever you hear in your head, unhindered by inadequate technique. After that, it's all about what you've got to say, so there would be no "best," just a bunch of people saying exactly what they mean.
#23
Quote by MadassAlex
Even if you can play without scales, I suggest learning theory and what they are if only so you can communicate with other musicians.


They all kind of suck honestly.



But the point is that they are pro musicians. That was what the original thread topic encompassed, right? RIGHT. And I agree, they DO suck. Learning all that stuff is beneficial, but not a pre-requisite to being a pro musician. Like I mentioned, I am a pro musician by definition, and I don't know a lick of any theory - and I don't suck, either. Anything is possible, believe me.

So, basically, you need to redefine what you see as a 'pro' musician. Go to Wikipedia, and look up the term Professional Musician, you will see what I mean.
#24
They're pro musicians, sure.

But they're not exactly good examples of lead guitarists, which is what the thread is also about. If you don't know your scales, modes or at least have a REALLY good, developed ear you're not going to cut it as a lead guitarist.
Quote by marmoseti
Mastering your instrument is being able to play whatever you hear in your head, unhindered by inadequate technique. After that, it's all about what you've got to say, so there would be no "best," just a bunch of people saying exactly what they mean.
#25
Quote by Ryansb123
hey ,my mate wants to be a proffesional lead guitarist but he dont wana learn scales. how can i make him get into them becasue there really important. he just plays random notes and see if they fit in the keys. cheers in advance!



THAT is the original intent of this thread. My statements ring true to the threadstarter's sentiment. The fact is, you don't have to know jack about music to make good music or be pro. No one said anything about becoming a great guitarist w/o knowing scales, just being PRO. That one word covers more ground than most of you know about, I have a feeling... or else you'd understand already. This isn't my opinion, it is a fact: You CAN be pro w/o proper music training. Let your guitarist do what he does, mate! If he doesn't wanna do what you want him to, then maybe you should quit trying to exert your will on him, eh?

I have said all that needs to be said by me in this thread.
#26
if your friend is like mine then hes just lazy motivate hit ass get better than him and you play the damn lead haha thatll get him rollin i bet
#27
Quote by WFMedia
Ask The Edge from U2, for instance, or Kurt Cobain, or Billy Joe Armstrong -.
Who wants to play like them, theres stuff other than powerchords.


Scales are mandatory. Tell your friend that.
#28
Quote by WFMedia
Seriously, just because I don't know of any off-hand, does NOT mean that there are not any. I don't know EVERYTHING without looking into it, after all... and I would use him (hendrix) as an excuse. But seriously, scales are not REQUIRED to make it in music. Ask The Edge from U2, for instance, or Kurt Cobain, or Billy Joe Armstrong - they would agree. Granted, you are not gonna play like Al Pitrelli w/o knowing scales, but that's not what we are talking about. We are talking 'pro' musicians here, in general. The word 'pro' is so broad, anyway, and applies to more than you think... I coverd this in a thread somewhere... but in any case, the fact remains, you CAN be a pro and not know jack about scales. Just remember - there are different levels of being 'pro', and guys of all levels who don't know scales are there.

they made it because the music they play(ed) is/was not very guitar focused. chances are, (with maybe the exception of kurt) they won't be remembered very much anyway.
#30
Quote by branny1982
he does make a good point that in order to be a pro musician you dont need to know scales.

how many punk bands use scales? a lot dont even use lead guitar....

they are pro musicians.


they will never be good guitarists though.

every guitarist uses scales, whether they know any scales or not. The only difference is those that actually learn scales know what they're doing.
#31
Tell him he is an asshole, and doesnt know the first thing about guitar, music and from what I can tell, life. However, do tell him that it is possible to play in a "non-constrictive" manner, purely in the sense he does not have to become a Theory-twat, but he should understand that the process of learning guitar ties in with that of music, so he will inevitably have to learn something along the lines of "scales".
Quote by Robbie n strat
In the changing rooms we'd all jump around so our dicks and balls bounced all over the place, which we found hilarious.



Little children should be felt, not heard.
#32
Quote by Spamwise
every guitarist uses scales, whether they know any scales or not. The only difference is those that actually learn scales know what they're doing.


Quote for truth.

Look at the music of Hendrix and SRV, and it is filled with scales and arppeggios. Only difference is they had to find the notes which sounded good together, while theory can give you many possibilities to try out.
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#33
If you want to be a professional musician then you have to learn something about music, simple as.
Actually called Mark!

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#34
Quote by steven seagull
If you want to be a professional musician then you have to learn something about music, simple as.

well put.
#35
Do you need scales to be a good musician/guitarist? No.

Do you need scales to maximise your ability as a musician/guitarist? Yes.

Sure, you can get away with no scales and be very good. Indeed, you will be more free than some who do learn scales. But consider this; initially music theory (scales etc) are boring for most and rob them of their enthusiasm for music. But over time, as the information sinks in, they are liberated rather than bonded. Instead of being bound by what sounds right, you're liberated in that you know what is right before you play it. Many a time you could write a riff without a guitar. Though you would want to play it, the possibility is there. You are liberated because you can write by ear, or you can write by knowledge. Combine them and get even better.

No you don't need scales. People prove that over and over. I am serious.

But will scales make you a better musician/guitarist? Yes. No doubt.

What's the best choice? Well it's a personal thing. And if scales are boring, it pointless doing them because you wont want to play guitar.

There is that, or you could suck it up, take it like a man, discipline that weak body and mind of yours and run into the battle, going for the top, not once settling for mediocre. But this is not most people. They would rather take it easy. And some will read this and have read things like this before, but the vast majority of them don't take it in.

Let your friend do what he likes, but maybe let him know what he's missing out on.
"We weren’t too ambitious when we started out. We just wanted to be the biggest thing that ever walked the planet."
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#36
Quote by BigFatSandwich
it depends on what kind of professional he wants to be. If he wants to be in a band that tours and makes a lot of money, then he doesn't need to learn scales.

If he wants to be a studio musician, however... he'd better start learning. NOW.


no......YOU DONT HAVE TO LEARN SCALES!!!
#37
Quote by InVaZi0n
no......YOU DONT HAVE TO LEARN SCALES!!!

did you even read his post? studio musicians have to be incredibly versatile to find work. they have to know what they're doing.
#38
Quote by apalm


Sure, you can get away with no scales and be very good. Indeed, you will be more free than some who do learn scales. But consider this; initially music theory (scales etc) are boring for most and rob them of their enthusiasm for music. But over time, as the information sinks in, they are liberated rather than bonded. Instead of being bound by what sounds right, you're liberated in that you know what is right before you play it.



Totally true.

Someone who just gives scales and theory a try thinking it will solve many of their
problems right away are going to be very disappointed. These are the people who
post about how theory and scales are restrictive and its better to play by
"feeling".

But if you keep at it ... do some scales, learn some licks, try to apply it improvising,
practice scales some more, read some theory, do some arpeggio's... one day
you'll try something again and ... CLICK. A bunch of stuff just comes together.
You have to build up a critical mass on a bunch of fronts for that to happen.

All that being said, depth of knowledge is VERY dependent on what you're going
to be playing. Also, once in a great while someone comes along who has
apparently no scale or theory to speak of yet manages some amazing stuff,
but those are what you call "the exceptions that prove the rule".
#39
You don't NEED scales and theory. If you have an amazing ear maybe you will do alright without them too.

But they help more than i can say.
#40
This guy TS is talking about is gonna get a break with some really big band. He'll go to the audition and they'll say "So after the chorus theres a lead break, somthing in Gm mellodic would be sweet"

He'll get to the part - play 'random' notes, get laughed at and leave.

Scales are important. Suuure when you improvise you can do somthing that "feels right" but if it feels right then more often then not its the right scale.

Maybe not so much in rock but in jazz people can say "Its in F#m go nutz" and be expected to play a sweet as solo.

All in all if your gonna move outside your garage

Scales = important
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