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#1
I know why Bm7 is an inversion of Am7


Do you know??


I'll let this grow for a while before I post the answer.


I bet I get busted in two posts
#4
I was going to say that, but I'm assuming this is some kind of riddle or joke?
#6
No joke

And, it is an inversion

Gotta go get my kid, I'll answer in about an hour

Clue = Letter language??? No
#8
Do you mean why you can play both over a static Am7 vamp and have it sound good?

It's because

Am7 ..................Bm7

A..C,,E..G ...........B .D..F# A
1 b3 5 b7............9.11.6...1

It contains all the colour! simply alternate back and forth (or walk up the board with inversions - Am(root) Bm(root) Am(1st) Bm (1st) etc)

And because dorian doesn't contain an "avoid" note its full chordscale can be played without excessive dissonance.
#10
It's justifiable (to me, at least) that once a harmony is clearly established, thinking of combinations of notes from that harmony (a full, dorian, minor chord contains a m7 from the 9th) as simply an nth inversion of the harmony can help simplify things in the mind

Say I'm comping so what and I want some spice to my dm7s so I throw some voicings that, in other contexts, form em7 - here, they are still part of the dm7 harmony and could be thought of as 5th inversion chords with most of the boring removed if that is how your mind wants to work.

However, since Bm7 is only an inversion of Am7 in context, and over quicker changes it might be too ambiguous a substitution (but that's up to you and your taste and who else is providing harmony and how your soloist likes to play etc ...), it might be confusing if you flat out state it as such. And the way the post was worded it could certainly be taken as intentionally misleading.
#11
Quote by Clifford D
No joke

And, it is an inversion

Gotta go get my kid, I'll answer in about an hour

Clue = Letter language??? No
I can hardly wait to see what kind of perverted twist on convention you come up with to justify this statement.

Chord inversions refer to chords that have a different note as the lowest tone, rather than the root. They require, by definition, that any other tones in the chord are found in the original chord, even if spaced more than an octave above the lowest tone.
Meadows
Quote by Jackal58
I release my inner liberal every morning when I take a shit.
Quote by SK8RDUDE411
I wont be like those jerks who dedicate their beliefs to logic and reaosn.
#12
Ok, like I promised
the answer

I got this from my buddie Steve Kimock, so blame him

B..|....|....|..D..|....|....|....|..F#..|....|....|..A..|....|....|..C..|....|....|....|..E..|....|....|....|..G..|
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<...>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Bm7 = BDF#A
Am7 = ACEG

A up to C = min 3rd
A down to F# = min 3rd

A up to E = 31/2 steps
A down to D = 31/2 steps

Bm7 is the reciprocal of Am7

A up to G = 5 steps
A down to B = 5 steps

Think key of G


Last edited by Clifford D at Dec 1, 2007,
#13
Inversion ... I get it ...

groans aside that's an interesting new symmetry that I hadn't seen before - does anyone find a similar form anywhere else?
#14
Its called reciprocal actually

Reciprocal = the opposite of overtonal

as in the reciprocal of an ascending perfect 4th C to F
is a decending perfect 4th C to G


.
Last edited by Clifford D at Dec 2, 2007,
#15
Ah, reciprocal, like in math class. 8 is the reciprocal of -1/8. That is pretty cool stuff.
Quote by funkdaddyfresh
justin, that was easily the most inspiring, helpful piece of advice anyone has ever given me in regards to my musical pursuits.


Screaming Help
#17
Yes, you'd be thinking slope of a perpendicular line I believe, with the negative reciprocal like you have there.

The question however, is that when this is applied to harmony does it sound interesting/nice?
#18
Quote by Clifford D
Ok, like I promised
the answer

I got this from my buddie Steve Kimock, so blame him

B..|....|....|..D..|....|....|....|..F#..|....|....|..A..|....|....|..C..|....|....|....|..E..|....|....|....|..G..|
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<...>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Bm7 = BDF#A
Am7 = ACEG

A up to C = min 3rd
A down to F# = min 3rd

A up to E = 31/2 steps
A down to D = 31/2 steps

Bm7 is the reciprocal of Am7

A up to G = 5 steps
A down to B = 5 steps

Think key of G




Wow, thats really impressive. So how would this information by applied musically.... how is it usefull ?

Also are you implying that the term Reciprocal means exactly the same thing as the term inversion (as it applies to chords in music)? As far as I know an inversion of a 7th chord would only include the notes in that chord (1,3,5,7). So while the "reciprocal" relationship is interesting, I dont understand why your calling it an inversion.

Would be interesting to know where your coming from on this, and im curious to know how you think this information is useful and applicable to the guitar.
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Dec 2, 2007,
#19
Quote by Nick_
Yes, you'd be thinking slope of a perpendicular line I believe, with the negative reciprocal like you have there.


Ya, thats what I was going for, with the perpendicular line thing, however, it would make more sense if it was -1/8 because everything is flipped.

Im thinking that Ive only really learned of the negative reciprocal when I think about it. When I think about math class, thats how I have heard it, so ya, my bad on that screw up. Gotta love pre calc!
Quote by funkdaddyfresh
justin, that was easily the most inspiring, helpful piece of advice anyone has ever given me in regards to my musical pursuits.


Screaming Help
#20
You'll spend lots of time on rational functions before you hit calc, don't worry (of course you might not I don't really know the manitoba curriculum)
#21
Quote by justin_fraser
however, it would make more sense if it was -1/8 because everything is flipped.
Well no:

8=+8/+1

Switching everything yields -1/-8=1/8


But the perpendicular line thing is the opposite recoprical. For instance, if you have y=3x+2, the slope of a line perpendicular to it is -1/3.


Hooray math!
#22
Wow, I've been studying music for many years and I've never come across anything like this.
Music can be picked apart and reconstructed to suit any argument. In the end it's like explaining that the color red is actually green. I better to play guitar rather than waffle on endlessly.........

www.nofretguitarlessons.com.au
#23
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Well no:

8=+8/+1

Switching everything yields -1/-8=1/8


But the perpendicular line thing is the opposite recoprical. For instance, if you have y=3x+2, the slope of a line perpendicular to it is -1/3.


Hooray math!


Haha, I know i know, but the word reciprocal means basically switched or flipped right, so when I think of that, I think not only flip it to 1/8, but flip the sign as well. I do get this stuff.

And for Nick, right now Im at grade 11 taking a pre calc 30 course, and the pre calc 40 is next semester for me. Im sure Ive done rational functions, things just arent coming to my head as to what they are.
Quote by funkdaddyfresh
justin, that was easily the most inspiring, helpful piece of advice anyone has ever given me in regards to my musical pursuits.


Screaming Help
#24
Quote by GuitarMunky
Wow, thats really impressive. So how would this information by applied musically.... how is it usefull ?

Also are you implying that the term Reciprocal means exactly the same thing as the term inversion (as it applies to chords in music)? As far as I know an inversion of a 7th chord would only include the notes in that chord (1,3,5,7). So while the "reciprocal" relationship is interesting, I dont understand why your calling it an inversion.

Would be interesting to know where your coming from on this, and im curious to know how you think this information is useful and applicable to the guitar.

You know, inversion is probobly the wrong word
but the word reciprocal might have been to weird
to use on the thread title,

Or maybe it is a pure inversion????
#25
Quote by justin_fraser
Haha, I know i know, but the word reciprocal means basically switched or flipped right, so when I think of that, I think not only flip it to 1/8, but flip the sign as well. I do get this stuff.

And for Nick, right now Im at grade 11 taking a pre calc 30 course, and the pre calc 40 is next semester for me. Im sure Ive done rational functions, things just arent coming to my head as to what they are.


you might have or you might not - they should be around now

your introduction to them will be with the reciprocals of functions you already know, so basic stuff like 1/x^2 etc which is why they came to mind. There is also where you'll probably be introduced to limits, which should lead the way into calculus nicely.

so anyway

music
#26
^Just to keep my sanity, the recoprical of that is x^2, right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_function

That's rational functions. Ignore Taylor Series and stuff beyond that. It's second semester calculus and beyond, or it appears to be at a glance.

Gee, I could have sworn I didn't get drunk and register on ultimate-math.com...
#27
Quote by bangoodcharlote
^Just to keep my sanity, the recoprical of that is x^2, right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_function

That's rational functions. Ignore Taylor Series and stuff beyond that. It's second semester calculus and beyond, or it appears to be at a glance.

Gee, I could have sworn I didn't get drunk and register on ultimate-math.com...


I absolutely love math, its gotta be my favorite subject. Thats why Ive taken such a liking to theory and the math component of it all, its so math orientated.
Quote by funkdaddyfresh
justin, that was easily the most inspiring, helpful piece of advice anyone has ever given me in regards to my musical pursuits.


Screaming Help
#28
Quote by bangoodcharlote
^Just to keep my sanity, the recoprical of that is x^2, right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_function

That's rational functions. Ignore Taylor Series and stuff beyond that. It's second semester calculus and beyond, or it appears to be at a glance.

Gee, I could have sworn I didn't get drunk and register on ultimate-math.com...

Math had little to do with this thread in the beginning

really

#29
Quote by Clifford D
Math had little to do with this thread in the beginning

really

Yeah, but I have 5,300 posts and will change topics whenever I want.

This recoprical idea you have is kind of cool, though.
#30
ok, so now that i've gotten over the initial wrongness of the thread title, this is actually a pretty interesting concept. how do you go about actually using it in music?
#31
Quote by Clifford D


B..|....|....|..D..|....|....|....|..F#..|....|....|..A..|....|....|..C..|....|....|....|..E..|....|....|....|..G..|
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<...>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



B to D=Minor Third

D to F#=Major Third
F# to A=Minor Third

And then the reflection across A:

A to C=Minor Third
C to E=Major Third
E to G=Minor Third

I guess a better term for this than reciprocal is reflection.

Consider this an addition to my previous post.
#32
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Yeah, but I have 5,300 posts and will change topics whenever I want.

This recoprical idea you have is kind of cool, though.

You have 5,300 posts

Is that just tonite? lol

I suggest you go for a walk.

Dude, that doesn't impress me.

Who you are as a musician is what gets me.

I'm new here but I hang out at The Gear Page
and The Jam Session and post way too much.
The Gear Page rocks with pros, kicks my butt.
But I like challenge in my music.

Me, I like to address the op and do my best to
keep the discussion on track.
But I ain't telling you what to do. And I won't.

So this is a big active forum, are there name pros
lurking about??
#33
i understand how these relate to eachother when you set them up linearly like that, i'm just curious how using a "reflected" chord in a progression would work. it would be really interesting if it would have specific applications, such as tritone substitution has its applications, or something.
#34
Now we're getting into transformations

Yeah, it seems like a more appropriate word though. TS, did your buddy come up with this himself?
#35
Quote by allstrats726
i understand how these relate to eachother when you set them up linearly like that, i'm just curious how using a "reflected" chord in a progression would work. it would be really interesting if it would have specific applications, such as tritone substitution has its applications, or something.

Well, it sure seems to outline a G major scale.

You could use it in the tune "Moondance" the Am Bm vamp. Coltrane
Play that part in G
then when the tune goes to the Dm chord, pop over to the key of C
Two keys

Anyway, the use of the G major scale over those chords sound good.
#36
Quote by Clifford D
Anyway, the use of the G major scale over those chords sound good.
That's because they are the ii and iii chords, so playing G majr over them is A Dorian and B Phrygian.

Now does reflection have any specific applications, or is it simply a cool feature of two m7 chords a whole step apart?

I haven't checked it for any others, but I'm just assuming it would work. If I'm wrong on this, please call me out (NICELY!).

Edit: It does work for all m7 chords, but the higher chord must come first. For instance, it works if you do E G B D F A C, not D F A C E G B.
#37
Quote by kirbyrocknroll
Now we're getting into transformations

Yeah, it seems like a more appropriate word though. TS, did your buddy come up with this himself?

Are you talking about Steve Kimock?

Steve is a master of all things reciprocal.
He is a great musician and player and
highly respected for his intellect.
As far as this "concept" it belongs to the universe
no one created it.
Harmonic Experience by W. A. Mathieu is the study
or at least a great start.

And he's also a cool guy that lets me in on his thing.
Very generous.

Here's a little bit of him, and the Two Rock
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6EsFeBdA7A

Homepage
http://www.kimock.com/frames/index_home.html


.
Last edited by Clifford D at Dec 2, 2007,
#39
Quote by bangoodcharlote
That's because they are the ii and iii chords, so playing G majr over them is A Dorian and B Phrygian.


beat me to it. in this case, its really just a roundabout way of applying modes to a progression and staying diatonic.

still, a pretty interesting concept. i find that a C chord "reflects" to an Fm, which means next to nothing, but maybe there are some more possibilities for this thing. i'll probably fool around with it sometime in school when i'm bored.
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