#1
I found this on WIKI:
Key Sig. Major Scale Minor Scale
0♯/♭ C major a minor

1♯ G major e minor
2♯ D major b minor
3♯ A major f♯ minor
4♯ E major c♯ minor
5♯ B major g♯ minor
6♯ F♯ major d♯ minor
7♯ C♯ major a♯ minor


So his means when someone is playing G major on rhythm, i could whip out an e minor scale??
#2
that's exactly what it means. look at C major/A minor:

C major: C D E F G A B c
A minor: A B C D E F G a

they're the same scales, in different modes.
#3
Quote by newaccount
I found this on WIKI:
Key Sig. Major Scale Minor Scale
0♯/♭ C major a minor

1♯ G major e minor
2♯ D major b minor
3♯ A major f♯ minor
4♯ E major c♯ minor
5♯ B major g♯ minor
6♯ F♯ major d♯ minor
7♯ C♯ major a♯ minor


So his means when someone is playing G major on rhythm, i could whip out an e minor scale??

Yes and no. Yes they contain the same notes, but no because of the tonal center.
#4
It realy depends on what the chord progression is, if it's most major chords, It might sound out of place, but If they are most minor chords, Let her rip.
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#5
^no it wont sound out of place. If you tried to play the E minor scale of a G major chord, it would sound exactly the same as playing the G major scale. And you wouldnt even be technically playing the E minor scale, techniqually you'd be playing G major.

This is sort of where modes come in. The chord defines which mode your playing mode.
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Last edited by demonofthenight at Dec 6, 2007,
#6
Quote by Vittu0666
Yes and no. Yes they contain the same notes, but no because of the tonal center.


He can, there's not a real 'no' to it, it wont sound completely minor, but it will add a new sort of feel to the music
Quote by beadhangingOne
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Last edited by EZLN libertad at Dec 6, 2007,
#7
Quote by EZLN libertad
He can, there's not a real 'no' to it, it wont sound completely minor, but it will add a new sort of feel to the music
Are you kidding? It wont sound minor at all. Its using the EXACT same notes as the major scale. Its over a MAJOR chord. What difference will it make if he calls the scale he's playing minor or major? Its still the same scale with the same 7 notes, regardless of its name.

If I called you a dog would you bark? Would you even be slightly dog-like?
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#8
Well, if you focus around E you would be resolving on the minor sixth, which would give it a different sound. But still, you would be playing G major because of the chord.
#9
You wouldn't resolve on E. You might resolve a phrase to E, but an entire melody line or solo would resolve to G.

Superimposing modes on chords (playing E Aeolian over a G major chord) leads to some ambiguous stuff. It's hard to say what really happens.
#11
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Superimposing modes on chords (playing E Aeolian over a G major chord) leads to some ambiguous stuff. It's hard to say what really happens.
Superimposing sounds pretty useless. E aeolian is G ionian when G major is being played. Modes are only defined by the key and chord thats being played. Regardless of what you call the mode your playing, it will always be determined by the chord and the key.

Even if you said you were played G mixolydian over that G major in the key of G, your still playing G ionian, its just that the m7 of the mixolydian becomes an accidental.
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#12
Quote by demonofthenight
Are you kidding? It wont sound minor at all. Its using the EXACT same notes as the major scale. Its over a MAJOR chord. What difference will it make if he calls the scale he's playing minor or major? Its still the same scale with the same 7 notes, regardless of its name.

If I called you a dog would you bark? Would you even be slightly dog-like?

Guy 1: Ok, we're going to play a G Major chord, you just improv over that G Major chord, ok?
Guy 2: Doodz! I'm totallee going to be the metalz and play teh lowkreean mohdez!
*They Jam and end*
Guy 1: Wtf was that? Wrong key dude.
Guy 2: Lawlz, j00 noob. I wuz totalleez in F# Locrian! So ep1c! So metalz!
Guy 1: YOU ENDED ON THE 7TH!
Guy 2: I knowz, eetz teh root uv locrian! Eetz the zame skale! same notez same saklez!
#13
Quote by Metaphysics
you lost me kirby. care to expand on that?

I meant that if you end a phrase on E, it'll obviously sound different than resolving to the root, because if you resolve on an E while a G major chord is playing, you're just ending on the minor sixth of G major.
#14
Quote by kirbyrocknroll
I meant that if you end a phrase on E, it'll obviously sound different than resolving to the root, because if you resolve on an E while a G major chord is playing, you're just ending on the minor sixth of G major.

Technically if someone is playing a G major triad and you play an E, it'll sound like a first inversion Em7.
#15
Quote by demonofthenight
If I called you a dog would you bark? Would you even be slightly dog-like?
Worst analogy... ever!

It'd sound akward or maybe a bit minor-ish because as you use E minor (rather than G), you tend to resolve around the E... which may sound quite weird if you play it over Gmaj chords...

And if you tend to resolve on G, why call it Eminor?? It'd be a simple G major!


/sarcasm starts

Why calling a dog a Canis lupus familiaris when you can call it a dog??

/sarcasm ends
Note: Sorry if my grammar and/or vocabulary isn't very good, English is my 2nd language!

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#16
Quote by demonofthenight
Superimposing sounds pretty useless. E aeolian is G ionian when G major is being played. Modes are only defined by the key and chord thats being played. Regardless of what you call the mode your playing, it will always be determined by the chord and the key.
Think about this. What if you start playing E blues licks over a G chord? Or what about an E minor arpeggio? Superimposing isn't a useless idea. You are right in saying that, ultimate, it all becomes G Ionian because of the chord.


Quote by demonofthenight
Even if you said you were played G mixolydian over that G major in the key of G, your still playing G ionian, its just that the m7 of the mixolydian becomes an accidental.
Kind of. I've seen modal work written two ways. The first would be to just write everything with one sharp and just write an accidental every time the F note appeared. The second way, which i think might be better, is to use a key signature with no accidentals and write a note that the key signature denotes G mixolydian.

However, you're not playing G Ionian. It's definately G Mixolydian.

Regarding Vittu0666's post:
You're funny, but you do raise a valid point. Emphasizing the F# and the enherent dissonace of Locrian will definately give a different feel that classic major chord licks. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, though. Also, ending on the 7th when the chord is a maj7 chord (F# over Gmaj7) will generally sound better than ending on the root, assuming that you are playing high up. You avoid the b9 between the maj7 and the root that way.
#17
Quote by Vittu0666
Guy 1: Ok, we're going to play a G Major chord, you just improv over that G Major chord, ok?
Guy 2: Doodz! I'm totallee going to be the metalz and play teh lowkreean mohdez!
*They Jam and end*
Guy 1: Wtf was that? Wrong key dude.
Guy 2: Lawlz, j00 noob. I wuz totalleez in F# Locrian! So ep1c! So metalz!
Guy 1: YOU ENDED ON THE 7TH!
Guy 2: I knowz, eetz teh root uv locrian! Eetz the zame skale! same notez same saklez!
I agree with guy 1, guy 2 did not resolves and effectively played the G ionian. Over G major in the key of G major, there is only one mode that can be played and only one note that resolves best consonantly. That goes to hurlyz too. Just because your resolving on a different note, it does not mean your using a different mode.
Quote by bangoodcharlotte
Think about this. What if you start playing E blues licks over a G chord? Or what about an E minor arpeggio? Superimposing isn't a useless idea. You are right in saying that, ultimate, it all becomes G Ionian because of the chord.
Melodically, it will be an E minor arpeggios. Ultimatly, its playing a major sixths than a toni than a major third. And what if you do start playing E blues licks? Your still playing G ionian, its just that the intervals your using in those licks will be different, and therefore will NOT sound the same over G major as it did over E minor. It might sound the same melodically, but harmonically its completely different.
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Last edited by demonofthenight at Dec 6, 2007,
#18
Quote by demonofthenight
I agree with guy 1, guy 2 did not resolves and effectively played the G ionian. Over G major in the key of G major, there is only one mode that can be played and only one note that resolves best consonantly. That goes to hurlyz too. Just because your resolving on a different note, it does not mean your using a different mode.
Melodically, it will be an E minor arpeggios. Ultimatly, its playing a major sixths than a toni than a major third. And what if you do start playing E blues licks? Your still playing G ionian, its just that the intervals your using in those licks will be different, and therefore will NOT sound the same over G major as it did over E minor. It might sound the same melodically, but harmonically its completely different.

That's what I was gettin' at buddy! Yes, E minor and G Major do have the same notes, but they don't have the same tonal center, so it's not really right to play E minor over G major. By no means am I saying "Ok. This is how it is. Break this rule and you'll be executed." I'm just sayin' it probably wouldn't sound too pleasant to the ears.
#19
^Vittu:
Playing classic E minor and E blues licks over a G chord generally sounds fine and even good. Look at what Randy Rhoads (I don't care how he spelled his last name) did in "Come on Feel the Noise." The song is in G but a lot of his soloing is E blues stuff. He just resolves his phrases to G.

Here's an A blues lick that resolves to C:


e-5-----------------------
B---8-5-----5------------
G-------7b9--9r7-5--5-
D---------------------7---
A--------------------------
E--------------------------


I'd write it in E minor/G, but I'd rather deal with lower, one digit frets.

Quote by demonofthenight
Melodically, it will be an E minor arpeggios. Ultimatly, its playing a major sixths than a toni than a major third. And what if you do start playing E blues licks? Your still playing G ionian, its just that the intervals your using in those licks will be different, and therefore will NOT sound the same over G major as it did over E minor. It might sound the same melodically, but harmonically its completely different.
Correct.

I just wanted to illustrate that superimposing other modes is not the same as just playing G Ionian. Superimposing the various modes leads to different sounds that you wouldn't get by just approaching it is G major and that's it. I mean, the first thing I think of playing over a G major chord is a G note, not an E blues lick.

Ultimately it all becomes G Ionian, but superimposing is a way of thinking differently than normal. Everything I quoted from you is correct, however.

Sorry about the double posting and deleting the first post (if anyone has noticed), but my browser gets screwed up when I try to edit long posts.
#20
Quote by bangoodcharlote
^Vittu:
Playing classic E minor and E blues licks over a G chord generally sounds fine and even good. Look at what Randy Rhoads (I don't care how he spelled his last name) did in "Come on Feel the Noise." The song is in G but a lot of his soloing is E blues stuff. He just resolves his phrases to G.

A *little* off topic but correct me if I'm wrong...Randy left Quiet Riot to join Ozzy. Metal Health - As well as Cum on Feel the Noise - came out after he had left.
#21
Quote by Vittu0666
That's what I was gettin' at buddy! Yes, E minor and G Major do have the same notes, but they don't have the same tonal center, so it's not really right to play E minor over G major. By no means am I saying "Ok. This is how it is. Break this rule and you'll be executed." I'm just sayin' it probably wouldn't sound too pleasant to the ears.
But isnt the tonal centre always the same as the root of the chord?
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#22
It's very off topic, but I don't care.

Randy did leave Quiet Riot to koin Ozzy. I don't know if he played Metal Health, though it's possible that he recorded the album, left QR, joined Ozzy, and then the album came out.


And I missed the most important note in that lick, so here is what I meant to post.


e-5-----------------------
B---8-5-----5------------
G-------7b9--9r7-5--5----
D---------------------7---
A--------------------------
E--------------------------


Edit: Okay, so it won't let me post the entire lick, but after that A note, you play C on the fifth fret of the G string. That makes it resolve to C major. Move the lick up 7 frets to get a G major lick.

Quote by demonofthenight
But isnt the tonal centre always the same as the root of the chord?
It depends on what you're talking about. The tonal center for a chord is the root of the chord, but not necessarily the root of a lick.

What if the backing chord is G, but the lead player lets a D note ring out? The tonal center of that lick is D, though the key of the song is still G.
#23
Quote by demonofthenight
But isnt the tonal centre always the same as the root of the chord?

The tonal center is where the progression/melody will want to resolve to. It's the "center" of the tone." Ugh. I know what I want to say, I just don't know how to word it.
#24
Quote by Vittu0666
The tonal center is where the progression/melody will want to resolve to. It's the "center" of the tone." Ugh. I know what I want to say, I just don't know how to word it.
It's different for the melody. A high melody over Gmaj7 will not want to resolve to G because that will create a b9 interval which is ugly. It will want to resolve to F#. However, the tonal center of the Gmaj7 chord is still G, as is the key of the song.
#25
demons still right pple, because u dont have to resolve around the E anyways lol to make it a minor scale it just helps so demons completly wrong u cant argue the facts
#27
Quote by natedapunk
demons still right pple, because u dont have to resolve around the E anyways lol to make it a minor scale it just helps so demons completly wrong u cant argue the facts


EDIT: Aww...I can't post a "Lol Wut" pear pic
Last edited by Vittu0666 at Dec 7, 2007,
#29
wow, thank you all for helping me here without even knowing.... this thread just made everything i knew about theory clash together.. its all coming to me now.
#30
Quote by bangoodcharlote
What were you saying about him getting banned, Vittu?

I posted a "Lol Wut" pear pic and when it came up, it said "(USER BAND FOR HOTLINKING THIS IMAGE)" so I took it off.
#31
this thread has actually helped me a little but i have a question. I have a metallica music book and itll say the song is in the key of G but the lead is an E Dorian mode or something, why woudlnt they just say its a G major scale is what the lead is made in
#32
^I'm going to assume the key signature has one sharp. That can mean G major OR E minor. E Dorian is a type of E minor scale, hence them writing it in E minor.
#33
Quote by bangoodcharlote
It depends on what you're talking about. The tonal center for a chord is the root of the chord, but not necessarily the root of a lick.

What if the backing chord is G, but the lead player lets a D note ring out? The tonal center of that lick is D, though the key of the song is still G.
I wouldnt see that as a lick, I dont usually say licks have tonal centres. I'd just call that a perfect fifth.
It's different for the melody. A high melody over Gmaj7 will not want to resolve to G because that will create a b9 interval which is ugly. It will want to resolve to F#. However, the tonal center of the Gmaj7 chord is still G, as is the key of the song.
You know, I've never thought of that. I've always thought, if its a G chord the most consonant note over that chord is G. But yeah, a high G (one thats only a semitone above the F#) would clash and sound so muddy over Gmaj7. It makes me wonder....
The tonal center is where the progression/melody will want to resolve to. It's the "center" of the tone." Ugh. I know what I want to say, I just don't know how to word it.
Could be the most "consonant" note?

Thanks guys, vittu and bangoodcharlote
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