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#1
ok .... now for a more difficult question. how does one tell wich mode or scale to use over a particular chord or progression. i asked this question once to someone alot better than me and was told, " i cant tell you how to play music, man."wich while true .... left me stymied and a little annoyed. i know noone can tell someone how to play music .... but some general guidelines are always helpful. any help what so ever would be greatly appreciated.
#3
well do understand keys that always helps? and for modes its up to u really was what the guy was really saying altho he could have explained more, the majority of pple on here will say u can only use a mode that has the same tonic note as its chord, how ever if u use a mode thats the same tonic note as the chords 3rd interval it will sound minor as u play it over said chord if u play a mode thats the same note as the 5th interval in yr chord it will emphasize the chord and make it sound major if u use the 7th or 4th or 2cnd interval it will sound suspensful and the tonic note of the chord sounds fine for yr mode also LOL it really depends on what u want to accomplish with yr peice
#4
First you have to figure out what key the songs in, then use a scale in that key. The mode really depends on the sound you're going for. I usually just stick to major, but I see a lot of guitarists using Aoelian (spell:/?) and dorian. Hope that helps.
#5
thanks. i know about keys and such.... i know most of the scales and modes all up and down the neck. i think my problem is that i get stuck in this sound and have no idea how to brak out of it.......... like isaid .... i know my scales and modes and practice them religiously but im having trouble combining them to make something interesting ........ its like i can either sound bluesy, spanish, "happily classical", or what i call medieval town fair music..........what im trying for is a way to combine everything i know into something cool and interesting. ........ any help with that???
please someone give me something to work with........ after 20 years im about to give up
#6
Quote by the_mad_riffer
thanks. i know about keys and such.... i know most of the scales and modes all up and down the neck. i think my problem is that i get stuck in this sound and have no idea how to brak out of it.......... like isaid .... i know my scales and modes and practice them religiously but im having trouble combining them to make something interesting ........ its like i can either sound bluesy, spanish, "happily classical", or what i call medieval town fair music..........what im trying for is a way to combine everything i know into something cool and interesting. ........ any help with that???
please someone give me something to work with........ after 20 years im about to give up


can give a specific example of a progression that you need help with? It would be easier to help you that way.
shred is gaudy music
#7
hmm why dont u tell us how u want to sound and give us an example of yr current progressions, easier if we start there
#8
OK ....... we can do this ...... lets try Emin ........ Hmmmm........ ok progression:
E5/ / / / / / / D / / / / / F5/ C D..... there thats a pretty easy one......... that would be a metalish progression............. now for this i would want to sound bluesy with touches of classical minorness and spanish flair ........... kind of like Randy Rhoads meets Kirk Hammett with a little flamenco thrown in for fun.... how would i do that???
#9
well for touches of minorishness and spanish flare u probly have to modal the chords around the lead, to an extent, phrygian ive thought is the most spanish sounding mode so make yr first chord have its 3rd note one that a phrygian that way it will sound minor and spanish or u could make sure u emphasise a minor in some chords by using a mode thats the tird interval in said chords scale, than try and use phrygian mode alot aslo and really pronounce it so as to really get that spanish feel id use alot of bends hammer ons and pull offs when yr being this detailed about ur music u almost have to be a composer not a noodler if that makes sense compose it first and than work with yr song to improve it into soemthing u like
#10
I think about it this way:
The scale doesn't have to come from any particular key, and shifting tonalities (playing outside of major and natural mnor keys) is a good way to break free from your usual feel. If you're playing over a minor triad for instance, you can easily play any scale that contains the notes in that triad. So, just thinking about 7-note scales, you have these possibilities: (I have the better scale choices bolded.)

1-b2-b3-4-5-b6-b7
1-b2-b3-4-5-b6-7
1-b2-b3-4-5-6-b7
1-b2-b3-4-5-6-7
1-b2-b3-#4-5-b6-b7
1-b2-b3-#4-5-b6-7
1-b2-b3-#4-5-6-b7
1-b2-b3-#4-5-6-7
1-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7
1-2-b3-4-5-b6-7
1-2-b3-4-5-6-b7
1-2-b3-4-5-6-7

1-2-b3-#4-5-b6-b7
1-2-b3-#4-5-b6-7
1-2-b3-#4-5-6-b7
1-2-b3-#4-5-6-7


As you increase the number of distinct notes in the chord, the number of "inside" scale choices gets smaller. If you were playing over a dominant 7 chord for example, you would have these choices among the 7-note scales:

1-b2-3-4-5-b6-b7
1-b2-3-4-5-6-b7

1-b2-3-#4-5-b6-b7
1-b2-3-#4-5-6-b7
1-2-3-4-5-b6-b7
1-2-3-4-5-6-b7

1-2-3-#4-5-b6-b7
1-2-3-#4-5-6-b7
1-#2-3-4-5-b6-b7
1-#2-3-4-5-6-b7
1-#2-3-#4-5-b6-b7
1-#2-3-#4-5-6-b7

As you keep adding notes to chords you have to acknowledge those new notes and 'accomodate' their presence within the chord. Part of the reason why power chords are so popular among guitarists is that they give an enormous amount of freedom as to what notes you can easily play. The scales that I didn't bold above were excluded from the 'good scale choices' because they had 3 chromatic notes in a row (#2-3-4; or #4-5-b6; or 7-1-b2). Also keep in mind that pentatonic and hexatonic scales are your friends, you can make some really beautiful music and lines just using the those types of scales; and they can really add color to pieces that you might have thought you had gotten all that you could from. Experiment, follow the chords, and bring things from outside your comfort zone into it.
#11
In the MT sticky at the top of this forum is the answer to all of your questions. It shows you what modes you can use over certain chords. Its a great resource.
Quote by funkdaddyfresh
justin, that was easily the most inspiring, helpful piece of advice anyone has ever given me in regards to my musical pursuits.


Screaming Help
#12
thank you ........ so what you are saying is that i should put more thought into my progressions when im thinking how i want to sound???..... that actually sucks for me cause to do that i will have to completely revamp my writing process
#13
Quote by titopuente
I think about it this way:
The scale doesn't have to come from any particular key, and shifting tonalities (playing outside of major and natural mnor keys) is a good way to break free from your usual feel. If you're playing over a minor triad for instance, you can easily play any scale that contains the notes in that triad. So, just thinking about 7-note scales, you have these possibilities: (I have the better scale choices bolded.)

1-b2-b3-4-5-b6-b7
1-b2-b3-4-5-b6-7
1-b2-b3-4-5-6-b7
1-b2-b3-4-5-6-7
1-b2-b3-#4-5-b6-b7
1-b2-b3-#4-5-b6-7
1-b2-b3-#4-5-6-b7
1-b2-b3-#4-5-6-7
1-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7
1-2-b3-4-5-b6-7
1-2-b3-4-5-6-b7
1-2-b3-4-5-6-7

1-2-b3-#4-5-b6-b7
1-2-b3-#4-5-b6-7
1-2-b3-#4-5-6-b7
1-2-b3-#4-5-6-7


As you increase the number of distinct notes in the chord, the number of "inside" scale choices gets smaller. If you were playing over a dominant 7 chord for example, you would have these choices among the 7-note scales:

1-b2-3-4-5-b6-b7
1-b2-3-4-5-6-b7

1-b2-3-#4-5-b6-b7
1-b2-3-#4-5-6-b7
1-2-3-4-5-b6-b7
1-2-3-4-5-6-b7

1-2-3-#4-5-b6-b7
1-2-3-#4-5-6-b7
1-#2-3-4-5-b6-b7
1-#2-3-4-5-6-b7
1-#2-3-#4-5-b6-b7
1-#2-3-#4-5-6-b7

As you keep adding notes to chords you have to acknowledge those new notes and 'accomodate' their presence within the chord. Part of the reason why power chords are so popular among guitarists is that they give an enormous amount of freedom as to what notes you can easily play. The scales that I didn't bold above were excluded from the 'good scale choices' because they had 3 chromatic notes in a row (#2-3-4; or #4-5-b6; or 7-1-b2). Also keep in mind that pentatonic and hexatonic scales are your friends, you can make some really beautiful music and lines just using the those types of scales; and they can really add color to pieces that you might have thought you had gotten all that you could from. Experiment, follow the chords, and bring things from outside your comfort zone into it.


Very nice post Using hexatonic scales and other various pitch collections leads to some interesting sounds that are distinctly different than the commonly used 7 note scales, and are fun to experiment with and lend themselves to varying degrees of "out" and "in" sounds
Last edited by Stash Jam at Dec 14, 2007,
#14
thanks everyone ... .this is really helpful, now for a new question.......... any advice on using diminished scales or the hungarian minor scale??? these are my favorites but i can rarely use them to good effect
#15
Quote by the_mad_riffer
thanks everyone ... .this is really helpful, now for a new question.......... any advice on using diminished scales or the hungarian minor scale??? these are my favorites but i can rarely use them to good effect


Find some music that uses them and learn from it. I can't recommend you anything, but that's easiest way to begin.
Quote by Johnljones7443
my neew year reslosutions are not too drikn as much lol.

happy new yeeae guyas.
#16
Quote by the_mad_riffer
thank you ........ so what you are saying is that i should put more thought into my progressions when im thinking how i want to sound???..... that actually sucks for me cause to do that i will have to completely revamp my writing process
yup thats exactly it LOL u gotta decide which notes in the chord u want to use the lead to ephasise and how dark u want it
#17
Quote by the_mad_riffer
thank you ........ so what you are saying is that i should put more thought into my progressions when im thinking how i want to sound???..... that actually sucks for me cause to do that i will have to completely revamp my writing process


Depending on who you ask, and what kind of music you're planning on writing, the melody of the song is going to come first. It's what determines the chords, and creates the framework that tune or section of that tune follows. If you keep the melody in mind, you'll never stray from where you should go. Even the most outside music still has something in common with the original melody, if it's good outside music.
#18
i see..... usually when i "write" i tend to begin with a riff or a little "noodle" then i build from there..........start with the riff,.... use that as a general basis for what the chord progression should be, that said ........i feel that if i stray too far from the riffs general sound, it wont sound as if it fits. i suppose since my riffs are usually more complex than my chord progression i could analyze my riffs more anduse the implied chord tones to build my solos???
#19
This thread is a trainwreck for misinfomation. As I am lazy, I will direct you here https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=503032

EDIT: after a deep breath and after reading this thread I am ready...

1. nate and mad riffer, learn to format. Reading what you wrote was ridiculously difficult.

2. Mad riffer, stop putting '........' randomly in your paragraphs......... It's probably the most annoying thing I've.......... ever seen in these forums. It even beats those girls who put their....... UG profile on private.

3. There IS only one mode you can play over each chord. You can use accidentals if you want to gain the feel of another mode, but ultimately, your still in that same one mode.

4. Because modes are only decided upon the chords underneath them, the only way to determin what mode is being played is by looking at the chord. Figure out what degree of the scale (key) the chord fits under and than look at the order of the modes:

I ionian
ii dorian
iii phrygian
IV lydian
V mixolydian
vi aeolian
viio locrian

If the chord is a I chord (meaning the root is the first note of the scale), the proper mode to aim for is the ionian mode. If the chord is a V chord (meaning the rrot is the fifth note of the scale) the proper mode is the mixolydian mode. But hey, if you like the sound of the lydian mode, than by all means play that #4 (the #4 is the distinguishing interval of the lydian mode) as an accidental.

Now these are just target notes, as in notes that will sound most consonant (opposite to dissonant) regarding the chord under the mode and the chord progression. You dont have to play these notes.

Music is free and without rules, music theory are not rules, it just tells you what will sound like what and when

5. To titopuente: most of those scales you mentioned are ridiculously unstable and therefore shouldnt be used as non-accidental notes. But if for some reason you like the sound of a b2 mixed with a #4, than (as it is your music) you can use those notes as accidentals.

6. To mad riffer regarding the other scales: Dont go looking for other scales (like the hungarian minor or 'diminished scale) to sound "dark" or eastern or whatever. It will just lead to a horrible unstable chord progression that will eat your soul and suck you into oblivion. It's better to use the right accidentals. https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=733976&page=1&pp=20 <--theres a post in that thread where I talk about accidentals if you want to know more.
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Last edited by demonofthenight at Dec 15, 2007,
#20
Like I said, I was just giving all the possibilities and highlighting the ones that didn't have the 3 chromatic notes in a row. There's no reason why someone can't play them if they want to. Don't reject something just because other people don't do it.
#21
Quote by demonofthenight
This thread is a trainwreck for misinfomation. As I am lazy, I will direct you here https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=503032

EDIT: after a deep breath and after reading this thread I am ready...

1. nate and mad riffer, learn to format. Reading what you wrote was ridiculously difficult.

2. Mad riffer, stop putting '........' randomly in your paragraphs......... It's probably the most annoying thing I've.......... ever seen in these forums. It even beats those girls who put their....... UG profile on private.

3. There IS only one mode you can play over each chord. You can use accidentals if you want to gain the feel of another mode, but ultimately, your still in that same one mode.

4. Because modes are only decided upon the chords underneath them, the only way to determin what mode is being played is by looking at the chord. Figure out what degree of the scale (key) the chord fits under and than look at the order of the modes:

I ionian
ii dorian
iii phrygian
IV lydian
V mixolydian
vi aeolian
viio locrian

If the chord is a I chord (meaning the root is the first note of the scale), the proper mode to aim for is the ionian mode. If the chord is a V chord (meaning the rrot is the fifth note of the scale) the proper mode is the mixolydian mode. But hey, if you like the sound of the lydian mode, than by all means play that #4 (the #4 is the distinguishing interval of the lydian mode) as an accidental.

Now these are just target notes, as in notes that will sound most consonant (opposite to dissonant) regarding the chord under the mode and the chord progression. You dont have to play these notes.

Music is free and without rules, music theory are not rules, it just tells you what will sound like what and when

5. To titopuente: most of those scales you mentioned are ridiculously unstable and therefore shouldnt be used as non-accidental notes. But if for some reason you like the sound of a b2 mixed with a #4, than (as it is your music) you can use those notes as accidentals.

6. To mad riffer regarding the other scales: Dont go looking for other scales (like the hungarian minor or 'diminished scale) to sound "dark" or eastern or whatever. It will just lead to a horrible unstable chord progression that will eat your soul and suck you into oblivion. It's better to use the right accidentals. https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=733976&page=1&pp=20 <--theres a post in that thread where I talk about accidentals if you want to know more.


Good explaination man
#22
well .... ok then ........ i know what accidentals are..... i HAVE studied music theory....... there are no rules, you are right about that. so there is only one mode to use over any chord??? well by what you have said then there is only one scale..... with accidentals. hell in that mode of thought and applying the advanced theory of hybrid scales .... there is only the chromatic scale. wich doesnt help anyone at all. i dont randomly put "......." they are there for a reason.to seperate ideas...... if what i write is hard to follow ...... maybe you should put down the axe and try reading a little more. everyones replys helped me out alot. i understood what they were saying.while i understand what you said about accidentals
that is just one way of looking at music, i tried that way and it didnt work for me. i can use accidentals almost exclusively and it comes out sounding " country".......... what i was looking for was a way to understand things better and therefore help myself combine the different genres of music i can play to make something cool and different.
#23
Quote by demonofthenight
This thread is a trainwreck for misinfomation. As I am lazy, I will direct you here https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=503032

3. There IS only one mode you can play over each chord. You can use accidentals if you want to gain the feel of another mode, but ultimately, your still in that same one mode.

Music is free and without rules, music theory are not rules, it just tells you what will sound like what and when

5. To titopuente: most of those scales you mentioned are ridiculously unstable and therefore shouldnt be used as non-accidental notes. But if for some reason you like the sound of a b2 mixed with a #4, than (as it is your music) you can use those notes as accidentals.

6. To mad riffer regarding the other scales: Dont go looking for other scales (like the hungarian minor or 'diminished scale) to sound "dark" or eastern or whatever. It will just lead to a horrible unstable chord progression that will eat your soul and suck you into oblivion. It's better to use the right accidentals. https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=733976&page=1&pp=20 <--theres a post in that thread where I talk about accidentals if you want to know more.


There is more than one mode you can play over each chord... What would you call playing G altered over G7? Gmixolydianb9#9b5#5? of course not it would be G altered.

Also there are non-diatonic chord progressions where your logic wouldn't fit.

What would be the "only" modes you could play over Dm - Ebm?

Take a simple 12 bar blues...A7 D7 E7 are A D & E mixolydian the only modes that can be played? of course not

Even a minor key ii V i...you could play harmonic minor over it all or different melodic minor modes over each chord.

Tito had the best post here, showing many options and being insightful about bringing
up various hexatonic & pentatonic scales/pitch collections. As he stated, he was giving a multitude of options to experiment with, nothing more, nothing less.
Just b/c something is 'ridiculously unstable' doesn't mean it shouldn't be used as you put it . Tension/Release is a beautiful thing and makes music interesting
Last edited by Stash Jam at Dec 15, 2007,
#24
as a general point to Demon, sometimes i think you could benefit from taking a step back from modes and having a look at the bigger picture of how they work.

perhaps the best way would be to only use one guitar, so not to slip into the 'Lead/ryhmn comparison' trap. write a minute or 2 of lead guitar, trying to base it on the dorian scale (or whichever). a mode doesnt HAVE to be entirely decided by the chord, pedal point exercises are the best example of this.

It isnt always as straight cut as saying "Em7 plus Dmajor = E Dorian", albeit correct, there may be much more going on with a piece of music.

I dont know... i sometimes dont know where i am with modes myself.
#25
Quote by branny1982
as a general point to Demon, sometimes i think you could benefit from taking a step back from modes and having a look at the bigger picture of how they work.

perhaps the best way would be to only use one guitar, so not to slip into the 'Lead/ryhmn comparison' trap. write a minute or 2 of lead guitar, trying to base it on the dorian scale (or whichever). a mode doesnt HAVE to be entirely decided by the chord, pedal point exercises are the best example of this.

It isnt always as straight cut as saying "Em7 plus Dmajor = E Dorian", albeit correct, there may be much more going on with a piece of music.

I dont know... i sometimes dont know where i am with modes myself.


You're absolutely right...I think people get too hung up on chord/scale relationships therefore having a somewhat narrow minded viewpoint on modes. Modes were developed by the Greeks for melodic purposes, modes came before the major/minor key system we use today even existed! When they created the modes, they weren't thinking about chords at all, and modes were used as a way of creating different moods in a melodic context.


look at an Am chord vamp...No other chords being played.You can make it sound aeolian, phrygian, dorian, harmonic minor, melodic minor, etc...all based around the melodies that you create over top of it.
#26
^The greeks used modes by assigning one of the notes as the root and usin it as the resolve note. And that Am could be in any key and thats why it could be in any mode.
Quote by Stash Jam
There is more than one mode you can play over each chord... What would you call playing G altered over G7? Gmixolydianb9#9b5#5? of course not it would be G altered.
Next time read what I wrote. Thats perfectly okay if you like it. But its not a "Gmixolydianb9#9b5#5," its a G mixolydian with a b9, a #9, a b5 and a #5 as accidentals and all those intervals that you didnt use, they would just be ommited. Actually youd write intervals enharmonic to those, as in b10 or bb10 or something instead of #9, but I cant be stuffed correcting you.
Your still playing the mixolydian mode, your just playing with accidentals. Personally IMO that would sound like dog crap as b9 and #9 sound like crap over major chords.

Quote by Stash Jam
Also there are non-diatonic chord progressions where your logic wouldn't fit.

What would be the "only" modes you could play over Dm - Ebm?
Thats where it gets sort of difficult. You have to find the scale that Ebm belongs to. If its a secondary dominant, its slightly easier, but that chord isn't. I don't know, non diatonic chord are normally only used to change keys or as passing chord, and you'd know the mode if it was used to change keys and passing chords are just passing chords. Passing chords dont really need their own mode, as they are only played for an instant.

Quote by Stash Jam
Take a simple 12 bar blues...A7 D7 E7 are A D & E mixolydian the only modes that can be played? of course not
In jazz, the 12 bar blues progression is more structered and wouldnt normally be all dominant chords. That progression might be popular in blues, but than again blues wasnt really the most theory oriented type of music. Their theory still had lots of growing up to do to get to our stage of theory.

Quote by Stash Jam
Even a minor key ii V i...you could play harmonic minor over it all or different melodic minor modes over each chord.
Than you would use the harmonic/melodic minor modes. Still using modes, just changing the scale.

Tito had the best post here, showing many options and being insightful about bringing
up various hexatonic & pentatonic scales/pitch collections. As he stated, he was giving a multitude of options to experiment with, nothing more, nothing less.
Just b/c something is 'ridiculously unstable' doesn't mean it shouldn't be used as you put it . If tito started talking about using the pentatonics and adding accidentals, I would probably have commented that he was my hero. But he didnt. He started recommending weird scales instead. Personally I find memorising new scales and building new scales annoying and boring. Instead, I use ye olde pentatonic scales and add accidentals to it. Much the same as what tito said. But playing scales without any care for the intervals your playing is clumsy and means you have no control over how your music is gonna sound. Dont go looking for new scales, play the old scales and get creative with the phrasing and accidentals.
Quote by Stash Jam
Tension/Release is a beautiful thing and makes music interesting
Yes... Yes it is. No arguments here

Quote by branny1982
as a general point to Demon, sometimes i think you could benefit from taking a step back from modes and having a look at the bigger picture of how they work.

perhaps the best way would be to only use one guitar, so not to slip into the 'Lead/ryhmn comparison' trap. write a minute or 2 of lead guitar, trying to base it on the dorian scale (or whichever). a mode doesnt HAVE to be entirely decided by the chord, pedal point exercises are the best example of this.

It isnt always as straight cut as saying "Em7 plus Dmajor = E Dorian", albeit correct, there may be much more going on with a piece of music.

I dont know... i sometimes dont know where i am with modes myself.
To branny and mad riffer. Saying that only one mode can be played over a chord isn't a rule or a law, its logic. Its like gravity or that 2+2=4. If C major is the set of notes, the chords are being played and the mode changes with the root of the chord, logically there is still only one mode being played. But music isn't meant to sound perfect, its not even meant to sound 'good.' Its meant to sound how you want it to sound.

And maybe I was wrong about something. The chord doesnt definitely decide/change the mode, but the chord does change the modes root. What really decides the mode is the root of the mode, and since the chord changes this root, my error was to blatantly say the chord decides the mode. But dont think that because you think your playing b locrian over a c major that your playing in locrian. No. Your still playing in C ionian, because that C major has changed the root and therefore mode.

And mad riffer, instead of adding ........... to each new idea, try learning how to format and start using full stops and paragraphs. Sure I'm not perfect at it (I know that would be anyones arguement), but at least try to make it easier to read.

Lastly, if you guys cant understand my understanding of theory (using accidentals to change feel and not new scales/modes), than dont flame it. Everyone understands things differently, in the end we are all right in some way.

LOL mega epic post here. Sorry guys
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#27
Sorry for the double post, but I cant edit posts that big.
Quote by Stash Jam
Tito had the best post here, showing many options and being insightful about bringing
up various hexatonic & pentatonic scales/pitch collections. As he stated, he was giving a multitude of options to experiment with, nothing more, nothing less.
Just b/c something is 'ridiculously unstable' doesn't mean it shouldn't be used as you put it
. If tito started talking about using the pentatonics and adding accidentals, I would probably have commented that he was my hero. But he didnt. He started recommending weird scales instead. Personally I find memorising new scales and building new scales annoying and boring. Instead, I use ye olde pentatonic scales and add accidentals to it. Much the same as what tito said. But playing scales without any care for the intervals your playing is clumsy and means you have no control over how your music is gonna sound. Dont go looking for new scales, play the old scales and get creative with the phrasing and accidentals.
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#28
Quote by demonofthenight

Next time read what I wrote. Thats perfectly okay if you like it. But its not a "Gmixolydianb9#9b5#5," its a G mixolydian with a b9, a #9, a b5 and a #5 as accidentals and all those intervals that you didnt use, they would just be ommited. Actually youd write intervals enharmonic to those, as in b10 or bb10 or something instead of #9, but I cant be stuffed correcting you.
Your still playing the mixolydian mode, your just playing with accidentals. Personally IMO that would sound like dog crap as b9 and #9 sound like crap over major chords.


I read what you wrote, no sane musician would use a name such as "its a G mixolydian with a b9, a #9, a b5," They would say G altered and you wouldn't use "b10 or bb10 or something" thats absolutely false. I take it you don't like jazz blues or hendrix if you think b9 & #9 sound like crap over dominant chords. thats fine

Quote by demonofthenight


Thats where it gets sort of difficult. You have to find the scale that Ebm belongs to. If its a secondary dominant, its slightly easier, but that chord isn't. I don't know, non diatonic chord are normally only used to change keys or as passing chord, and you'd know the mode if it was used to change keys and passing chords are just passing chords. Passing chords dont really need their own mode, as they are only played for an instant.


Ok well a minor chord cant function as a secondary dominant. Also non diatonic chords are extremely common. You seem to want to relate everything back to a key...key based music is different than modal music. What if you have several bars of Dm followed by several bars of Ebm?
Quote by demonofthenight

Than you would use the harmonic/melodic minor modes. Still using modes, just changing the scale.


which proves your theory of "only one mode can be played over a chord" false

Quote by demonofthenight

Personally I find memorising new scales and building new scales annoying and boring.


well maybe you should expand your horizons a bit then... Seriously... experimenting with different scales & pitch collections will increase your musical vocabulary and allow you to express yourself better

Quote by demonofthenight
Sorry for the double post, but I cant edit posts that big.
. If tito started talking about using the pentatonics and adding accidentals, I would probably have commented that he was my hero. But he didnt. He started recommending weird scales instead. Personally I find memorising new scales and building new scales annoying and boring. Instead, I use ye olde pentatonic scales and add accidentals to it. Much the same as what tito said. But playing scales without any care for the intervals your playing is clumsy and means you have no control over how your music is gonna sound. Dont go looking for new scales, play the old scales and get creative with the phrasing and accidentals.


He did show care for intervals & gave specific context...Minor chord scale choices all had 1 b3 5, the essential notes. everything else is color. so while only maintaining the essential foundation of the chord, allowing numerous possibilities of added sounds. same deal with the dominant examples he gave
Last edited by Stash Jam at Dec 16, 2007,
#29
Quote by Stash Jam
I read what you wrote, no sane musician would use a name such as "its a G mixolydian with a b9, a #9, a b5," They would say G altered and you wouldn't use "b10 or bb10 or something" thats absolutely false. I take it you don't like jazz if you think b9 & #9 sound like crap over dominant chords. thats fine
I'm not saying, "zomg letz creatz teh new skalez lulz." I'm saying, call it a mixolydian, and call any outside notes accidentals. In the end, we are playing the same thing, but I'm keeping to logic. Please read my posts, your obviously skipping over them or misreading them.
Quote by Stash Jam
Ok well a minor chord cant function as a secondary dominant. Also non diatonic chords are extremely common. You seem to want to relate everything back to a key...key based music is different than modal music. What if you have several bars of Dm followed by several bars of Ebm?
Than your chord progression would be horribly unstable and it would collapse upon you and eat you. What I'm saying is, you wouldnt.
Quote by Stash Jam
which proves your theory of "only one mode can be played over a chord" false
Why? If the chord progression is based around another scale, than logic suggest you would use that other scale and its modes.
Quote by Stash Jam
well maybe you should expand your horizons a bit then... Seriously... experimenting with different scales & pitch collections will increase your musical vocabulary and allow you to express yourself better
Were you the kind that asked, "liek what skalez did dime bag use?." If I want a different sound, I dont go looking for new scales. And my pitch collection is THE WHOLE 12 NOTES. If I want I will use every note known to man (including microtonal). I'm not restricted by your scales. I will accept that scales can show safe notes, but if your scale is stupidly unstable, and there are no safe notes, for what point is your scale?
Quote by Stash Jam
He did show care for intervals & gave specific context...Minor chord scale choices all had 1 b3 5, the essential notes. everything else is color. so while only maintaining the essential foundation of the chord, allowing numerous possibilities of added sounds. same deal with the dominant examples he gave
Yes... Everything else is colour. But why should I confine myself to only using 7 notes in a solo/melody? Going by his method, he will only use the 7 notes chosen. Going by my method, I can (if I want) use all 12 notes and still sound like him. Sure my method takes alot more thinking, and alot more knowledge about intervals.

BTW, this is sort of fun in a very geeky way

EDIT:
Quote by stash jam
with different scales & pitch collections will increase your musical vocabulary
While you experiment with your scales, I will experiment with my intervals.
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Last edited by demonofthenight at Dec 16, 2007,
#30
Quote by demonofthenight
I'm not saying, "zomg letz creatz teh new skalez lulz." I'm saying, call it a mixolydian, and call any outside notes accidentals. In the end, we are playing the same thing, but I'm keeping to logic. Please read my posts, your obviously skipping over them or misreading them.



You're right that in the end it's playing the same thing, but you're the only person i've ever met that would call R b9 3 #9 b5 #5 b7 over a _7 anything other than Altered. Whatever works for you...

Quote by demonofthenight


Than your chord progression would be horribly unstable and it would collapse upon you and eat you. What I'm saying is, you wouldnt.


Haha tell that to Miles Davis, it's from one of the most famous jazz songs ever, So What

Quote by demonofthenight


Were you the kind that asked, "liek what skalez did dime bag use?."



What would give you that impression? Were you the kind that said "Actually youd write intervals enharmonic to those, as in b10 or bb10 or something instead of #9, but I cant be stuffed correcting you."

Quote by demonofthenight


If I want a different sound, I dont go looking for new scales. And my pitch collection is THE WHOLE 12 NOTES. If I want I will use every note known to man (including microtonal). I'm not restricted by your scales. I will accept that scales can show safe notes, but if your scale is stupidly unstable, and there are no safe notes, for what point is your scale?Yes... Everything else is colour. But why should I confine myself to only using 7 notes in a solo/melody? Going by his method, he will only use the 7 notes chosen. Going by my method, I can (if I want) use all 12 notes and still sound like him. Sure my method takes alot more thinking, and alot more knowledge about intervals.



I agree with what you're saying there, I never said anyone should be confined to 7 note scales

Quote by demonofthenight

Why? If the chord progression is based around another scale, than logic suggest you would use that other scale and its modes.


Not really , a minor ii V i you can play harmonic minor , or 3 different melodic minor scales, one over each chord, or even a mixture of those approaches.Point being that progression can be looked at and soloed over in a variety of ways, with no one specific mode tied to each chord it's a simple fact
Last edited by Stash Jam at Dec 16, 2007,
#31
Quote by Stash Jam
You're right that in the end it's playing the same thing, but you're the only person i've ever met that would call R b9 3 #9 b5 #5 b7 over a _7 anything other than Altered. Whatever works for you...
Hmm. The notes your playing might be the altered scale, but because of the chord/scale/chord progression, it would still be mixolydian.
I think the mode/scale just tells you the safe notes, the notes of the mixolydian mode are still the safe notes.
Also why would you do that? play an altered scale over the mixolydian mode... Sure it might work if you played say a G# altered scale (the altered scale in this case is the superlocrian double flat 7, right?) over that G dominant chord, but than you would just be playing a G mixolydian with an added b2. Otherwise, just about all the intervals clash with the chord tones...
Quote by Stash Jam
Haha tell that to Miles Davis, it's from one of the most famous jazz songs ever, So What
Well, I was owned. Or maybe....
I wish I could change the word key, everytime I said it, to scale. Maybe its not a non-diatonic chord at all. Maybe mr Miles Davis was using a different scale, and therefore, different chord progression and different modes? I dunno. Personally I like the fact the major scale and its progression is ridiculously consonant.
Quote by Stash Jam
What would give you that impression? Were you the kind that said "Actually youd write intervals enharmonic to those, as in b10 or bb10 or something instead of #9, but I cant be stuffed correcting you."
You cant have both a b9 and a #9. b9 means that the ninth degree is flatened (from the ionian mode obviously) but than you have a #9 which means its augmented. So which one is it? Thats what I was about to correct you about.
Quote by Stash Jam
I agree with what you're saying there, I never said anyone should be confined to 7 note scales

Quote by Stash Jam
Not really , a minor ii V i you can play harmonic minor , or 3 different melodic minor scales, one over each chord..Point being that progression can be looked at and soloed over in a variety of ways, with no one specific mode tied to each chord
Okay you got me there. There are 2 possible combinations to modes that can be used there. But only because there are 2 possible scales that can be used
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#32
Quote by demonofthenight

Also why would you do that? play an altered scale over the mixolydian mode... intervals clash with the chord tones...


Thats the point, all of the chord tones are there (G altered over G7 btw), so you have the essential chord tones R 3 b7
So you get the tritone between the 3 & b7 your basic tension.
The altered notes makes it more tense, thus giving you a stronger sense of resolution...remember the beauty of tension & release?

This is definitely common to jazz, but can be used anywhere over a V chord

Try playing G7 - C ...yeah ok basic tension/resolution going on there
Now play G7b9 - C That G7b9 is much more tense than plain old G7, therefore gives you a stronger sense of resolution...Same deal with other altered dominants. So your basically adding tension to the 'realtively tense' tritone that's inherent in _7 chords
Quote by demonofthenight


Well, I was owned. Or maybe....
I wish I could change the word key, everytime I said it, to scale. Maybe its not a non-diatonic chord at all. Maybe mr Miles Davis was using a different scale, and therefore, different chord progression and different modes? I dunno. Personally I like the fact the major scale and its progression is ridiculously consonant.
You cant have both a b9 and a #9. b9 means that the ninth degree is flatened (from the ionian mode obviously) but than you have a #9 which means its augmented. So which one is it? Thats what I was about to correct you about.


I like how you're trying to correct me on something that you don't understand. You absolutely can have a b9 & #9 & b5 & #5, these are the altered notes can be contained in both dominant chords and are all in the altered scale. Just a simple fact
Granted it's not a typical way of naming scale tones, but thats just the way it is in an altered scale/chord context
Last edited by Stash Jam at Dec 16, 2007,
#33
Quote by Stash Jam
Thats the point, all of the chord tones are there (G altered over G7 btw), so you have the essential chord tones R 3 b7
So you get the tritone between the 3 & b7 your basic tension.
The altered notes makes it more tense, thus giving you a stronger sense of resolution...remember the beauty of tension & release?

This is definitely common to jazz, but can be used anywhere over a V chord

Try playing G7 - C ...yeah ok basic tension/resolution going on there
Now play G7b9 - C That G7b9 is much more tense than plain old G7, therefore gives you a stronger sense of resolution...Same deal with other altered dominants. So your basically adding tension to the 'realtively tense' tritone that's inherent in _7 chords
Granted. More tension=better release, but how would you release such tension?

Sure going from G7b9 to Cmaj releases that tension, but only because thats a consonant chord played in a consonant progression. The more tension, the more consonance needed, right?

And lawl at epic thread size
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#34
i am the last person to tell anybody they are wrong etc etc, and whilst i warrant this thread for open theory discussion..... i think we should have a bit of respect for Mr Jam, he has the best avatar ever and generally knows his stuff!

Demon, what i was trying to say is that i think you will develop a deeper understanding for the modes if you spend a decent amount of time with one guitar creating some modal licks, the mode doesnt have to be related to the chord as you always state.
If a Cmajor is being played it could very well be part of an A Dorian progression, because the chord is contained within the mode. i dont see how it is easier to say "well Cmajor + Gmajor = C Lydian" because it usually wont be true.

Make the licks resolve to one degree... use pedal points... THAT is what modes are.

i started to cringe when you questioned the whole b9 #9 theory, but unfortunately it is correct!
#35
Yeah, Branny I'm with you.
Jam's avatar is really groovy.

No really, demon is trying to correct entire theory on which jazz is based...
There are also melodic and harmonic minor modes, and you can't go: Yeah that's not lydian dominant, only lydian with #5 accidental...

Maybe you know it, but clickie: https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26618
Quote by Johnljones7443
my neew year reslosutions are not too drikn as much lol.

happy new yeeae guyas.
#36
Quote by DarTHie
Yeah that's not lydian dominant, only lydian with #5 accidental...
Dont insult me, its not funny. I'm well aware that the harmonic minor scale has a different set of modes.
You two obviously didnt read any of our posts. I'm not gonna repeat myself. Your only here to flame me and stick up for stashjam
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#37
well, actually i read all of the posts and i have posted a couple of times myself.

i was not trying to be offensive, i was trying to guide you down the path of enlightenment....

it isn't a case of 'sticking up' for anybody. i'm sure he is a big boy who can take care of himself, i just made the point that he is very clued up on theory and MORE IMPORTANTLY putting the theory into practice.
#38
Hey, Demon don't be mad...
Your:

There IS only one mode you can play over each chord.

is completely wrong. It is so much complicated observing with your accidental way...
Quote by Johnljones7443
my neew year reslosutions are not too drikn as much lol.

happy new yeeae guyas.
#39
Hey, its my own theory about theory. I'm not totally convinced with this modes are just scales thing. IMO, modes are an important aspect of musical composition and very seperate from just a group of notes (over simplified definition of scales). Sure my theory isn't very simple, but it damn well isn't "completely wrong." And your being a bigot if you say it is wrong without explaining yourself.
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#40
sure, if it helps you to make music, then it's great, thats what theory is there for!
but dont fell into a theory hole which has no bearing on the act of writing music, thats all (not saying you have done )

imagine for a day that dorian is major/ionian. play exactly as you would with the major scale, but use dorian, so if your major V - IV - I was D7 - C - G, then it is now Dm - C7 - Gm. etc etc.

i have tried my hardest to post nicely! i dont think i am a bigot


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