Poll: Creationism vs. Evolutionism
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View poll results: Creationism vs. Evolutionism
Creationism
656 16%
Evolutionism
2531 62%
Rawr! Dinosaurs!
900 22%
Voters: 4087.
Page 4 of 351
#121
Quote by Blind In 1 Ear
macro is a fact. its already been observed.

Wrong.
Evolution is a continuous process. There is no micro and Macro
"Why should we subsidise intellectual curiosity?"
-Ronald Reagan

"Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."
-George Washington
#122
Evolution, because it happens.

Creationism = incest.
I like analogue Solid State amps that make no effort to be "tube-like", and I'm proud of it...

...A little too proud, to be honest.
#123
Quote by Mutant Corn
again with the pseudi-science...what do you call macroevolution?

Did you even read more than the first page?
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/HydroplateOverview.html


It's quite hard to comprehend, or even understand, but for lack of a better explanation god exists outside of time. There was no beginning to him.

There is no distinction between micro and macro evolution!

Its a stupid distinction made by creationists. "Macro evolution" is a result of the thousands of instances of "micro evolution"

Or, more properly, evolution is a process that happens normally in small gradual changes which eventually show themselves in larger changes that occur over time.


"Micro evolution" and "Macro evolution" are just terms invented by creationists to try to make them look more accepting.

What they call" Micro evolution" is readily observable therefore they can't even hope to deny it without sounding foolish. So they make this distinction to sound smarter, and claim that they are seperate things when they aren't.

And believe me, I understand most of the christian ideas and arguments. I was a catholic once.
#124
Quote by Ur all $h1t
Wrong.
Evolution is a continuous process. There is no micro and Macro


this is true. im speaking in terms creationists understand. macro is considered the "long term". its really just a change in species. thats how science uses it. but yes in reality, there is no difference. they are both evolution and work on the same principles.

i should stop using these terms because they are misleading.
#125
Macroevolution, like when an a male and female of a certain species are suddenly born with very different bodies, more chromosomes on their DNA, and the exact same mutation(or whatever you want to call it) and mate with each other.

Even if the bodies aren't really all that different...like dogs and cats, the DNA still is quite different. That had to happen somehow.
Nope, no sig here.
#126
what the F**K is creationism? Is that like "God created Earth blah blah blah"? or am i just totally out of the f*****g loop?
Colors by Between the Buried and Me is the Best album ever
#127
Quote by Mutant Corn
Macroevolution, like when an a male and female of a certain species are suddenly born with very different bodies, more chromosomes on their DNA, and the exact same mutation(or whatever you want to call it) and mate with each other.

Even if the bodies aren't really all that different...like dogs and cats, the DNA still is quite different. That had to happen somehow.


you have no idea what you are talking about do you?
#128
Quote by Mutant Corn
Macroevolution, like when an a male and female of a certain species are suddenly born with very different bodies, more chromosomes on their DNA, and the exact same mutation(or whatever you want to call it) and mate with each other.

That never happens. taht is a flawed interpretation of evolution.


Smaller change occur over vast ammounts of time eventually leading to a change in species.

Quote by Mutant Corn

Even if the bodies aren't really all that different...like dogs and cats, the DNA still is quite different. That had to happen somehow.


Actually, you'd be supprised how similar the DNA of cat's and dogs are. Humans share 1/3 of our DNA with daphodils.
#129
Quote by Mutant Corn
Macroevolution, like when an a male and female of a certain species are suddenly born with very different bodies, more chromosomes on their DNA, and the exact same mutation(or whatever you want to call it) and mate with each other.

Even if the bodies aren't really all that different...like dogs and cats, the DNA still is quite different. That had to happen somehow.

no, thats downs syndrome...
I like analogue Solid State amps that make no effort to be "tube-like", and I'm proud of it...

...A little too proud, to be honest.
#130
Quote by Mutant Corn
Macroevolution, like when an a male and female of a certain species are suddenly born with very different bodies, more chromosomes on their DNA, and the exact same mutation(or whatever you want to call it) and mate with each other.

Even if the bodies aren't really all that different...like dogs and cats, the DNA still is quite different. That had to happen somehow.

Hey idiot, There is no such thing as macroevolution. Even using the ****ing term proves you have ni idea what you are talking about.

Explain the following without evolution
MRSA
The peppered moth
Comparative anatomy
Fossils

That's just for starters.
"Why should we subsidise intellectual curiosity?"
-Ronald Reagan

"Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."
-George Washington
#131
Quote by rizo299
That never happens. taht is a flawed interpretation of evolution.


Smaller change occur over vast ammounts of time eventually leading to a change in species.



But they still have to gain or lose the chromosomes at some point in time, and it has to be 2 of them with very similar mutations or else the lone individual will not be able to reproduce. And even if they are only similar, if hybrids today are indication, it still wouldn't work. It would have to be exact.
Nope, no sig here.
#133
Quote by Mutant Corn
Macroevolution, like when an a male and female of a certain species are suddenly born with very different bodies, more chromosomes on their DNA, and the exact same mutation(or whatever you want to call it) and mate with each other.

Even if the bodies aren't really all that different...like dogs and cats, the DNA still is quite different. That had to happen somehow.




Fail.

Quote by Mutant Corn
But they still have to gain or lose the chromosomes at some point in time, and it has to be 2 of them with very similar mutations or else the lone individual will not be able to reproduce.


The gain or loss of chromosomes will not necessarily make the offspring members of a different species.
#134
Quote by Mutant Corn
But they still have to gain or lose the chromosomes at some point in time, and it has to be 2 of them with very similar mutations or else the lone individual will not be able to reproduce.

You're misunderstanding mutations! A cat doesn't have to be born with an extra leg to be a mutant! Different hair colours are mutations, eye colours are mutations! Are you saying that a black cat with green eyes can only mate succesfully with another black cat with green eyes?
#135
Quote by Blompcube
Evolution, because it happens.

Creationism = incest.

True. Creationism means you're far more closely related to the last girl you banged than you thought. And also that many of your ancestors banged their blood relatives.
Although that might actually explain some creationists.
#136
Quote by Blind In 1 Ear
have you ever once looked up evolution?


I have. Genetic Drift seems like a pretty weak explanation for that to me..
Nope, no sig here.
#137
i belive that the bible is more of a aincient book of chinese whispers. one day the book came into a rich man a king or emporer you may say and was brought to be a more famous book than it was expected it then grew with importance and ancient chinese whispers become wise tales that were accurate.

i beleive there was a man called jesus or thereabouts, and i think his powers were a bit out of proportion from what the bible states. he couldve done wise things and as ive said before through chinese whispers told throught out ages and still today we are told of them.

this is all my opinion and as of now am putting on my flame shield
#139
Quote by DieGarbageMan
i belive that the bible is more of a aincient book of chinese whispers. one day the book came into a rich man a king or emporer you may say and was brought to be a more famous book than it was expected it then grew with importance and ancient chinese whispers become wise tales that were accurate.

i beleive there was a man called jesus or thereabouts, and i think his powers were a bit out of proportion from what the bible states. he couldve done wise things and as ive said before through chinese whispers told throught out ages and still today we are told of them.

this is all my opinion and as of now am putting on my flame shield




Quote by rizo299
And "God did it" is better?


It does seem to have a stronger evidence base, yes.
Nope, no sig here.
#140
Cosmic Evolution. The development of space, time, matter and energy from nothing.

Stellar Evolution. The development of complex stars from the chaotic first elements.

Chemical Evolution. The development of all chemical elements from an original two.

Planetary Evolution. The development of planetary systems from swirling elements.

Organic Evolution. The development of organic life from inorganic matter (a rock).

Macro-Evolution. The development of one kind of life from a totally different kind of life.

Micro-Evolution. The development of variations within the same kind of life.
#141
Quote by rizo299
You're misunderstanding mutations! A cat doesn't have to be born with an extra leg to be a mutant! Different hair colours are mutations, eye colours are mutations! Are you saying that a black cat with green eyes can only mate succesfully with another black cat with green eyes?


it can be something even smaller than those too. and it doesnt even needs to be flat out "mutations", just variations. and that happens all the time when two parents have offspring. some are stronger, taller, faster, have better senses, etc... but i guess that depends on how you define mutations. i just say genetic varitions because that covers everything. it doesnt need to be anything extreme. theists usually think for some reason evolution is all of a sudden sprouting a leg or wing or something. i dont know where they got this idea seeing as its nowhere in the theory.
#142
Species is an arbitrary distinction made by humans. Every life form is a transition between one thing and another.
Check out my latest recording on my profile
#143
Quote by Mutant Corn



It does seem to have a stronger evidence base, yes.
Such as?
"Why should we subsidise intellectual curiosity?"
-Ronald Reagan

"Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."
-George Washington
#144
Big Bang theory must be false, because something cannot come from nothing.
Big Bang theory must be false, because explosions are destructive, not creative.
Big Bang theory contradicts the first law of thermodynamics.
Big Bang theory contradicts the second law of thermodynamics.
Einstein's general theory of relativity is just a theory.

Just A few things that came to my mind.
#145
Quote by Mutant Corn



It does seem to have a stronger evidence base, yes.

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Seriously, how can you say that!? What evidence?!

I'm sure if there was solid evidence that God did it, and genetic drift is false, the scientific community would be backing the "God did it " theory

Quote by DieGarbageMan
Big Bang theory must be false, because something cannot come from nothing.
Big Bang theory must be false, because explosions are destructive, not creative.
Big Bang theory contradicts the first law of thermodynamics.
Big Bang theory contradicts the second law of thermodynamics.
Einstein's general theory of relativity is just a theory.

Just A few things that came to my mind.

IT DOES NOT CONTRADICT THE LAWS OF THERMODYNAMICS *head expodes*

I hate it when people say that! Any one who claims that has a terrible understanding of science!

The big bang is not strictly and explosion! its not like a bomb went off and then there was the universe! the name is a metaphore!

The big bang didn't come from nothing! Science is working on theorys to trace back past the singularity, which is 100X better than just going "**** it i can't explain it, there must be a God who did it!"And if you think that nothing can come from nothing, and try to use that to disprove science and prove god, you're a hypocritical idiot.

Einstiens theory of relativity is a theory yes, but not in the sense of the word that your thinking of it. Is musical theory unproven? no! its a system that is used to explain something!
Last edited by rizo299 at Dec 16, 2007,
#146
Quote by DieGarbageMan
Big Bang theory must be false, because something cannot come from nothing.
Big Bang theory must be false, because explosions are destructive, not creative.
Big Bang theory contradicts the first law of thermodynamics.
Big Bang theory contradicts the second law of thermodynamics.
Einstein's general theory of relativity is just a theory.

Just A few things that came to my mind.

Big band is technically a creationist theory, that is in no way linked to evolution.

edit: oops, big bang lol. Ah well, i'll leave it as "big band" just because.
I like analogue Solid State amps that make no effort to be "tube-like", and I'm proud of it...

...A little too proud, to be honest.
#148
Quote by Mutant Corn
I have. Genetic Drift seems like a pretty weak explanation for that to me..

educate yourself man. evolution is just changes in species due to genetic variation and natural selection. when your parents had you, you werent the same as them were you? obviously not. and your kids will be different too. right there thats variation. everyone is different. and when animals migrate or the environment changes, the ones who are better suited survive while the others die or move somewhere else. when you do this for millions of years, things can change quite a bit.

"macro" evolution as you call it has been observed. its been done with fruit flies for example. look it up. a change in species was observed. so right there that proves that it happens and is possible.

now you are probably thinking, but they are still fruit flies. but let me ask you, if you added a little speck or yellow paint to a big blob of red, is it still red? it still looks red. but lets add another. and another. and keep going. when do you call it orange? at what point do you say it isnt red anymore? its the same with evolution. it take a long time and works in little steps but eventually you step back and say, what a sec, this isnt red.

its all just human definitions. thats where the problems lie. when does that fruit fly change enough for you to say its evolved? but the thing is, the fossil record shows changes, we have observed small changes withing a species and even a change of species. there isnt really anything up for debate. we know for a fact that life evolves over time.
#149
Quote by Blompcube
Big band is technically a creationist theory, that is in no way linked to evolution.


Its is not a creationist theory. Your misinformed.

And the big bang theory does not contradict the first law of thermodynamics. Kent Hovind made that ridculous claim, and who is he? A young earth creationist. Its false.
Quote by Meths

Obviously I'm biased towards the correct point of view. What kind of retard isn't?


#150
Evolution because...

Evolution is a process by which new species are formed from pre existing ones over a period of time. In order for evolution to occur, all organisms must produce large numbers of offspring, which if they survived would lead to a geometric increase in the size of the population. Despite the fact that organisms have a tendency to increase in numbers due to over production, the population actually remains constant. This is due to the fact that members of the species are constantly competing to survive. This struggle for existence means only a few will survive to breed. Any form of competition be it food territory or availability of mates will only be open to those who are best adapted to the prevailing conditions to survive. Those that are not adapted to suite the environment, or cannot compete adequately with the rest of the population die off. This means that those that go on to breed pass on their genes to the next generation thus the new offspring are better able to survive. However, in any sexually produced offspring of any species, there is always individual variation amongst members of that species. This means that generally, no two offspring are alike. (This excludes twins who are genotypically the same but maybe phenotypically different due to environmental factors). Amongst the offspring of any species within any population, there are some that are able to withstand the prevailing conditions of the environment. This means that some are better able to survive the struggle for existence, and those that are more likely to survive are the ones that are more likely to breed, and therefore produce offspring that are similar to themselves.

Advantageous characteristics are therefore passed onto the next generation which allows the next generation to be better adapted to their environment. Over time, the favourable characteristics pass through the population therefore spread through the gene pool. Development of variation over generations leads to the evolution of a new species.As we have seen, evolution is based on natural selection and those that are better able to survive prevailing conditions, go on to breed. However, in order to breed, these organisms need to be able to survive selection pressures. Selection pressures determine the spread of an allele amongst the gene pool. Where variation forms a normal distribution curve, there will be organisms that have ?average alleles? that allow it to survive prevailing conditions, and there will be organisms that have the extremes of these alleles that make them less able to survive the prevailing conditions. For example, in a population of polar bears, there is a mean fur length, short fur and long fur. If the selection pressure is temperature, the mean hair length and long hair length is favourable in cold temperatures, there for short fur is selected against, therefore short hair polar bears die out, therefore, the short hair allele is no longer in the population (not all short fur bears die because body fat composition may make up for what the fur lacks). This means the mean shifts to allow favourable medium and long fur alleles to prevail in the population and therefore, over time, longer haired species of polar bear develop. Where extreme characters (long fur in this case) are selected for, the mean allele frequency shifts in the population. This is due to a change in the environmental conditions. The colder it gets, the more the long hair allele is favoured (as shorter hair bears die off they cannot pass genes to next generation) therefore more bears are produced with longer fur. This is directional selection where one of the extremes is favoured as conditions change.

Another form of selection is stabilising selection, where the environment selects against the extremes of the population therefore favours the mean. This reduces the allelic variation amongst the population therefore reduces evolutionary change.
There are rare cases where the mean allele in a population is selected against. This is disruptive selection and favours the extremes within the population, therefore two distinct phenotypes are favoured (phenotype determined by genotype) therefore encourages evolutionary change. Although selection pressures can lead to variation amongst a population and over time, new species can develop, another more common method of evolution that is often over looked is speciation. Speciation is where a new species is formed from groups via isolation mechanisms. Within a population there are demes. A deme is a group of individuals within a species. A deme can breed with individuals from its own deme or other demes, thus keeping the gene pool wide and varied. However, if a deme is prevented from breeding with another deme, the gene pool becomes smaller, therefore separated and therefore isolated. When demes become isolated from other demes, speciation occurs via two mechanisms, allopatric and sympatric speciation.

Allopatric speciation is where a deme becomes geographically isolated by any physical barrier. These can include mountain ranges, rivers, oceans and any other form of physical barriers that prevent two demes from interbreeding.
Sympatric speciation is more complex and involves factors other than geographical factors. This is where reproductive isolation occurs by a number of factors. There may be mechanical isolation where the genitals are not compatible, therefore it is physically impossible for the male anatomy to enter the female anatomy. Even if intercourse can occur, the male gametes maybe prevented from meeting the female gametes as the male gametes may not survive female reproductive tract. Another factor maybe that the gametes do not fuse because they are not compatible. If gametes do fuse, hybrid initability may occur where chromosomal abnormalities may occur preventing the survival of the embryo. Polyploidy may cause hybrid sterilisation. (Polyploidy will be explained later). Also, another factor is behavioural isolation, where courtship rituals prevent reproduction as the rituals differ. A factor with plants is seasonal differences, where some plants release pollen before female parts of plant are developed, but develop in another season.

Another big factor in evolution is variation due to genetic mutations. This can be recombination during prophase one of meiosis. This is where chromatids are exchanged that lead to changes in the genotype. During metaphase one of meiosis there is random distribution of chromosomes, and during prophase one, there is crossing over of homologous chromosomes. These are not necessarily forms of mutations, but that are inbuilt methods of variation where genes are swapped between chromosomes to deliberately change the genotype. A mutation is a change in the structure or the amount of DNA. Any mutation that occurs in somatic cells are not passed on to the next generation. Only mutations that occur in gametes are passed on as these are the cells used in reproduction. A point mutation occurs at a specific locus on a chromosome. These are a change in a specific nucleotide base pair. There can be duplication where a portion of DNA is repeated. There can be insertion, where an extra nucleotide sequence is added in. There can be deletion, where a portion of DNA is removed. Inversion can occur where a portion of the DNA sequence is removed, but joins back on to the chromosome in its reversed position. Substitution can occur where a nucleotide is replaced by another. All of these lead to evolutionary change because they alter the phenotype. Any change in the genotype alters the phenotype so much so a new species is formed as any two organisms now differ.Another type of mutation that leads to evolutionary speciation is a change in the structure of the chromosomes. During meiosis (pronounced my oh sis) chromosomes form chiamesta. This is where chromosomes break off into chromatids and rejoin. This can lead to new genotypes by similar mechanisms to point mutations. Deletion can occur.

This is where a portion of the chromosome is lost, however, this involves a loss of genes and is often fatal. Inversion can occur where the chromatid breaks off and rejoins in its reversed position. The gene sequence is reversed, but the genotype stays the same. This could however, alter the phenotype. This indicates that the sequence of the genes is important, as a change in the gene sequence can alter phenotype. Also, translocation can occur. This is where a chromatid becomes deleted and rejoins on a different position on the chromosome, or joins a new chromosome. The final type of chromosome mutation that can occur is duplication, where a whole sequence of the chromatid is repeated, therefore resulting in a repetition of the gene sequence. This can lead to new species forming as the genotype is changed in some way that alters the phenotype. This can lead to reproductive isolation therefore, new species can form.
Sat in a lab, curing diseases. They actually LET me play with chemicals!
#151
Quote by DieGarbageMan
Big Bang theory must be false, because something cannot come from nothing.
Big Bang theory must be false, because explosions are destructive, not creative.
Big Bang theory contradicts the first law of thermodynamics.
Big Bang theory contradicts the second law of thermodynamics.
Einstein's general theory of relativity is just a theory.

Just A few things that came to my mind.

1 None of that is evidence FOR creationism.
2 The big bang is not evolution you gob****e
3 You do not know what a theory is.
4. As for your laws of thermodynamics, WRONG.


Now, mo dheargamadán

"Why should we subsidise intellectual curiosity?"
-Ronald Reagan

"Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."
-George Washington
#152
It seems that there's nothing that I could possibly say to convince you people of this...so there's no point in causing the mods any more grief by continuing this thread. All I know is that anyone who has truly believed and felt God's power knows without a doubt that he exists. I cannot possibly explain the feeling to someone who has never experienced it...and I'm sorry that you haven't. I will pray for you.
Nope, no sig here.
#153
Contiued from previous post

Whole sets of chromosomes can be changed or exchanged. Polyploidy is where an organism has an additional set of chromosomes. This can arise where gametes become diploid and are self fertilised. It can also occur where whole sets of chromosomes double after fertilisation. This can lead to sterile hybrids such as a donkey and horse cross. Hybrids are formed when two organisms of differing chromosomes are mated. This leads to allopolyploidy where the hybrid can have a diploid divide to a haploid chromosome number evenly. Non disjunction can occur where chromosomes fail to separate during anaphase in meiosis. This can be fatal because the gametes have one extra or one less chromosome therefore not all genetic information provided to make new organisms, or if there is too much information, the organism is disabled in someway. However, all of this may lead to new species forming as there is an altered genotype. If the genotype is changed, the phenotype is changed. This leads to an increase in the variation of the population, therefore any changes over time lead to an increase of allelic frequency in the gene pool. This combined with selection pressures favouring one set of alleles over another, coupled with forms of isolation mechanism can lead to speciation.
Sat in a lab, curing diseases. They actually LET me play with chemicals!
#154
Quote by Blompcube
Big band is technically a creationist theory, that is in no way linked to evolution.

edit: oops, big bang lol. Ah well, i'll leave it as "big band" just because.


i was saying that against the creastist threom not the evoultion
#155
Quote by DieGarbageMan
Big Bang theory must be false, because something cannot come from nothing.
Big Bang theory must be false, because explosions are destructive, not creative.
Big Bang theory contradicts the first law of thermodynamics.
Big Bang theory contradicts the second law of thermodynamics.
Einstein's general theory of relativity is just a theory.

Just A few things that came to my mind.


Fail.
Fail.
Fail.
Fail.
Fail.

And your first and 3rd ones are the same.

The first 4 are easily refutable: The Big Bang created this universe and therefore the laws of thermodynamics. You cannot retroactively apply the laws to the event that created them.

The second one is just you being a cretin and failing at understanding the Big Bang.

Einstein's Theory of Relativity is "just" a theory and therefore also a fact.

Quote by Mutant Corn
It does seem to have a stronger evidence base, yes.


Erm no.

Quote by Mutant Corn
It seems that there's nothing that I could possibly say to convince you people of this...so there's no point in causing the mods any more grief by continuing this thread. All I know is that anyone who has truly believed and felt God's power knows without a doubt that he exists. I cannot possibly explain the feeling to someone who has never experienced it...and I'm sorry that you haven't. I will pray for you.




1)Religion and creationism are not the same. You don't need to be creationist to believe in god.
2)Don't bother praying for me. I don't need or want it.
3)"Anyone who knows god exists, knows god exists." Pretty pointless statement there buddy.
4)No, nothing you say can convince me that your dumbass beliefs are true.
Last edited by Meths at Dec 16, 2007,
#156
Quote by preludetowar

Its is not a creationist theory. Your misinformed.

well it sort of is, in the way that it explains how the universe was "created", but i know it isn't really. thats why i said "technically".
I like analogue Solid State amps that make no effort to be "tube-like", and I'm proud of it...

...A little too proud, to be honest.
#157
Quote by Mutant Corn
It seems that there's nothing that I could possibly say to convince you people of this...so there's no point in causing the mods any more grief by continuing this thread. All I know is that anyone who has truly believed and felt God's power knows without a doubt that he exists. I cannot possibly explain the feeling to someone who has never experienced it...and I'm sorry that you haven't. I will pray for you.

I used to think I'd felt gods presence. Turns out it was just the feeling of smugness you get when you think everyone else is going to hell.

And please don't pray for me, its incredibly patronising.
#158
Quote by DieGarbageMan
Big Bang theory must be false, because something cannot come from nothing.
Big Bang theory must be false, because explosions are destructive, not creative.
Big Bang theory contradicts the first law of thermodynamics.
Big Bang theory contradicts the second law of thermodynamics.
Einstein's general theory of relativity is just a theory.

Just A few things that came to my mind.


it turn, god doesnt exist because something cant come from nothing. if you accept that god doesnt need to be created or have some sort of creator, then you dont need to think that the universe needs one. we know the universe exists. we dont know if god does. so its one assumption to far.
#159
Creationism. Evolution makes no sense.

"The earth was made 160,000,000,000,000 years old. Even though the moon dust on the moon suggests the universe can only possible 3,000 years old. Silly us."
Quote by redneckrebel
Wow...just wow




A clapstack? My life is complete.
Last edited by Fred1000000 at Dec 16, 2007,
#160
Quote by rizo299
I used to think I'd felt gods presence. Turns out it was just the feeling of smugness you get when you think everyone else is going to hell.


That's not the Christian way dude.. Thinking that everyone else is going to hell saddens me.
Nope, no sig here.