Page 1 of 2
#1
What is the best way to practice the scales in this book? Should I play all say, E Major in the different patterns one day or play the complete fretboard pattern or....

The book boggles me
#2
no **** dude i freaking love this book. i'm going through and learning all the major and minor scales first, and when i feel like screwing around i'll just pick a random one to play.
Paul Gilbert
Steve Vai
Joe Satriani
John Petrucci
#3
Quote by ERA
What is the best way to practice the scales in this book? Should I play all say, E Major in the different patterns one day or play the complete fretboard pattern or....

The book boggles me



forgive me if i am wrong but if you learn the complete fret board pattern i believe you have just learned that scale in every key you just need to memorize the root note position so you know what key you are playing the scale in.
song stuck in my head today


#4
sorry you should learn what notes make up the scale and how it is constructed but i thought that was implied by your learning
song stuck in my head today


#5
So an F major scale in the II pattern would be in the key of G, which can be played over G chords?
#6
if you start the major scale on the first fret of the low E you would start the F maj scale. in the "first" position of "box" patern if you move up the neck 2 frets to the G note 3 fret on the low E it will be the G maj sclae in the "first box" position. every scale has a formula to find the notes that make up that scale .

the major scale formula is

whole tone, whole tone, half tone, whole , whole, whole, half

if you look at the book it should say the root note and where it is positioned in the scale. if you play that pattern on F the root note is F and the scale following will be the F maj scale.

if you start the patern on G as the root note the scale pattern will remain the same but you will be playing different notes in the key of G but still the maj scale.
song stuck in my head today


#7
does that make sence at all cause i can post something that will kinda clear a little bit up i an kinda bad at expalining things sometimes
song stuck in my head today


#8
well see, the book says F Major scales and it lists like 7 different patterns. Some of these start on the G note, some F, etc. Root notes are not made obvious.
#9
the I's are frets and the numbers are the notes. this is the first position G major scaleyou can move this pattern up and down the neck and get the major scale of any note as long as you keep these intervals

E-I-7-R-I-I
B-I-I-5-I-6
G-I-2-I-3-4
D-I-6-I-7-R
A-I-3-4-I-5
e-I-I-R-I-2
song stuck in my head today


#10
well see not all of the patterns begin with the root note...
#11
Quote by ERA
well see, the book says F Major scales and it lists like 7 different patterns. Some of these start on the G note, some F, etc. Root notes are not made obvious.


it is ok because it is in the key of F. G is a note in the F maj scale

if you move evry pattern 1-7, every note you see up 2 frets. then you would be playing in the key of G maj or the scale G maj

and you can move these paterns up or down the neck to get the major scale of any note.

all the intervals are the same in the major scale. so those paterns will never change no matter what root note you use

you are using the root note F
song stuck in my head today


#12
Quote by ERA
well see not all of the patterns begin with the root note...

\
no not all paterns do begin with the root note just generally the first position i believe for the simplicity of teaching.

but that book should have trhe root notes marked out
song stuck in my head today


#13
i am gonna use the major pentatonic scale as an example seing it is the only example i can find

A Major Pentatonic
e-|--|2-|--|--|5-|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|--|17|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|
B-|--|2-|--|--|5-|--|7-|--|--|10|--|12|--|14|--|--|17|--|19|--|--|22|--|24|
G-|--|2-|--|4-|--|6-|--|--|9-|--|11|--|--|14|--|16|--|18|--|--|21|--|23|--|
D-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|11|--|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|23|--|
A-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|
E-|--|2-|--|--|5-|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|--|17|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|

B Major Pentatonic
e-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|11|--|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|23|--|
B-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|
G-|1-|--|--|4-|--|6-|--|8-|--|--|11|--|13|--|--|16|--|18|--|20|--|--|23|--|
D-|1-|--|--|4-|--|6-|--|--|9-|--|11|--|13|--|--|16|--|18|--|--|21|--|23|--|
A-|--|2-|--|4-|--|6-|--|--|9-|--|11|--|--|14|--|16|--|18|--|--|21|--|23|--|
E-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|11|--|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|23|--|

C Major Pentatonic
e-|--|--|3-|--|5-|--|--|8-|--|10|--|12|--|--|15|--|17|--|--|20|--|22|--|24|
B-|1-|--|3-|--|5-|--|--|8-|--|10|--|--|13|--|15|--|17|--|--|20|--|22|--|--|
G-|--|2-|--|--|5-|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|--|17|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|
D-|--|2-|--|--|5-|--|7-|--|--|10|--|12|--|14|--|--|17|--|19|--|--|22|--|24|
A-|--|--|3-|--|5-|--|7-|8-|--|10|--|12|--|--|15|--|17|--|19|--|--|22|--|24|
E-|--|--|3-|--|5-|--|--|8-|--|10|--|12|--|--|15|--|17|--|--|20|--|22|--|24|

D Major Pentatonic
e-|--|2-|--|--|5-|--|7-|--|--|10|--|12|--|14|--|--|17|--|19|--|--|22|--|24|
B-|--|--|3-|--|5-|--|7-|--|--|10|--|12|--|--|15|--|17|--|19|--|--|22|--|24|
G-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|11|--|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|23|--|
D-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|
A-|--|2-|--|--|5-|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|--|17|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|
E-|--|2-|--|--|5-|--|7-|--|--|10|--|12|--|14|--|--|17|--|19|--|--|22|--|24|

E Major Pentatonic
e-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|
B-|--|2-|--|--|5-|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|--|17|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|
G-|1-|--|--|4-|--|6-|--|--|9-|--|11|--|13|--|--|16|--|18|--|--|21|--|23|--|
D-|--|2-|--|4-|--|6-|--|--|9-|--|11|--|--|14|--|16|--|18|--|--|21|--|23|--|
A-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|11|--|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|23|--|
E-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|

F Major Pentatonic
e-|1-|--|3-|--|5-|--|--|8-|--|10|--|--|13|--|15|--|17|--|--|20|--|22|--|--|
B-|1-|--|3-|--|--|6-|--|8-|--|10|--|--|13|--|15|--|--|18|--|20|--|22|--|--|
G-|--|2-|--|--|5-|--|7-|--|--|10|--|12|--|14|--|--|17|--|19|--|--|22|--|24|
D-|--|--|3-|--|5-|--|7-|--|--|10|--|12|--|--|15|--|17|--|19|--|--|22|--|24|
A-|--|--|3-|--|5-|--|--|8-|--|10|--|12|--|--|15|--|17|--|--|20|--|22|--|24|
E-|1-|--|3-|--|5-|--|--|8-|--|10|--|--|13|--|15|--|17|--|--|20|--|22|--|--|

G Major Pentatonic
e-|--|--|3-|--|5-|--|7-|--|--|10|--|12|--|--|15|--|17|--|19|--|--|22|--|24|
B-|--|--|3-|--|5-|--|--|8-|--|10|--|12|--|--|15|--|17|--|--|20|--|22|--|24|
G-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|
D-|--|2-|--|--|5-|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|--|17|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|
A-|--|2-|--|--|5-|--|7-|--|--|10|--|12|--|14|--|--|17|--|19|--|--|22|--|24|
E-|--|--|3-|--|5-|--|7-|--|--|10|--|12|--|--|15|--|17|--|19|--|--|22|--|24|


if you look at all these they are all using the same paterns i know it looks like a big mess but you will notice that there is a line astraight down at the 14th frets in the A scale then at the 16th in the B then 17th fret in the c scale and so on this is part of one of the box patterns. that can be apllied to any rot note does that make sence?

A to B is 2 fret jump that is wht there is 14 to 16 change there should be the scale of A#/Bb in between to give the 15 fret line
song stuck in my head today


Last edited by lbc_sublime at Jan 31, 2008,
#14
no you r right not every position starts on the root note but the FIRST position of the major scale does

this is the first position in G major

e|----------------|
B|----------------|
G|----------------|
D|----------2-4-5-|
A|----2-3-5-------|
E|3-5-------------|


Your book probably starts you at 1 instaed of 3 because 1 on the E string is F all i am trying to tel you is if you remember those paterns you can move them up and down the neck to get the major scale in all positions
song stuck in my head today


Last edited by lbc_sublime at Jan 31, 2008,
#15
Quote by lbc_sublime

e|----------------|
B|----------------|
G|----------------|
D|----------2-4-5-|
A|----2-3-5-------|
E|3-5-------------|


this may sound irrelevant but am i the only person who never learned to play the major scale that way? i play it like so:

e|--------------------|
B|--------------------|
G|--------------------|
D|---------------4-5-|
A|--------3-5-7-----|
E|3-5-7-------------|

anyway, about that book... i really dont like the book because it just seems to list every scale in every position possible, but thats not very informative. if you understand how the scale is created, you can move that all over the fretboard... well, there are lots of ways of thinking about it... but yea. i think youre better off learning how the scales work, and then applying them to the entire fretboard will be cake.

for instance, if you just know mode patterns... you can look at your book and see this:

the "first position" of F major is... F major.
the "second position" of F major (starting on G) is... G dorian (which is just the notes of F major starting on G)
the "third position of F major (starting on A) is... A phrygian (which is ALSO just the notes of F major, but starting on A)...

you can see how this continues (assuming you know about modes). thats just one way of thinking about it.
Last edited by Guitar_Poet at Feb 1, 2008,
#16
^ That is NOT what modes are. The second postition of F major is still F major. IF the root note was G then it would be G dorian, and the first postion of F major would also be G Dorian.

DO NOT confuse scale positions with modes.
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#17
the "first position" of F major is... F major.
the "second position" of F major (starting on G) is... G dorian (which is just the notes of F major starting on G)
the "third position of F major (starting on A) is... A phrygian (which is ALSO just the notes of F major, but starting on A)...


No, G dorian is a G major scale with a flatted 3rd and 7th. Modes are not box shapes. That entire pattern, all over the fretboard, is F major. The harmony determines the mode.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#18
im not saying it IS G dorian or whatever, i was saying if the TS only knew what mode shapes were (judging by what ive seen from the book it simply shows shapes without any explanations of what they are), thats what it LOOKS like. if you actually read i did state that it was actually F major that he was playing... but the shape is a dorian shape starting on G.

did anyone actually read what i said? ****...

TO CLARIFY for those who strangely were confused (or didnt read the whole post), when i said

"the "second position" of F major (starting on G) is... G dorian (which is just the notes of F major starting on G)"

i guess it would make more sense if i said it like so:

"the "second position" of F major (starting on G) LOOKS LIKE... G dorian (which is just the notes of F major starting on G)"

i thought the part in parenthesis would clear up what i had said, but for some people it wasnt good enough. now that its revised, i hope everyone can understand what i said.
Last edited by Guitar_Poet at Feb 1, 2008,
#19
"the "second position" of F major (starting on G) is... G dorian
im not saying it IS G dorian
No, of course you aren't


if you actually read i did state that it was actually F major that he was playing... but the shape is a dorian shape starting on G.
Where did you state this?


G dorian (which is just the notes of F major starting on G)
G dorian is not JUST the notes of F major starting on G. It has very different intervals and a very different sound.


LOOKS LIKE... G dorian
G dorian can look like anything because modes are not just shapes.


I would have been better if the word 'mode' had never entered this thread.
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
Last edited by Ænimus Prime at Feb 1, 2008,
#20
the point is, F major, starting on the note G, has the same shape that the dorian mode does. i dont care what it sounds like, or what its purpose is... my point (which i really hope you dont try to disprove--again, and poorly) is that it LOOKS the same.

G dorian (which is just the notes of F major starting on G)

G dorian is not JUST the notes of F major starting on G. It has very different intervals and a very different sound.


um, actually yes it IS just the notes of F major starting on G. if it has notes that are not in F major, please, save me.... and the fact that the intervals are different or that it sounds different is irrelevant--because i never said anything about intervals, or how it sounds. i said that the notes are all part of F major.


Quote: "the "second position" of F major (starting on G) is... G dorian
Quote: im not saying it IS G dorian

No, of course you aren't


way to take things out of context. the sentence was actually:

"the "second position" of F major (starting on G) is... G dorian (which is just the notes of F major starting on G)"

im sorry if you got a little confused, but i did fix this message so that people (such as yourself) would not be puzzled by my comment. i am aware that it was a bit misleading, which is why i fixed it... were you unable to read that second post? apparently so...

Quote:
if you actually read i did state that it was actually F major that he was playing... but the shape is a dorian shape starting on G.

Where did you state this?


right here: the "second position" of F major (starting on G) LOOKS LIKE... G dorian (which is just the notes of F major starting on G)"

^ not hard to see.

G dorian can look like anything because modes are not just shapes.


i didnt say that modes were JUST shapes... but, they ARE shapes, particularly if youre looking at a diagram (as the TS is). what i originally said was that if the TS only knew mode shapes, this was another way to think about it. im sorry i mentioned it, as its obviously confusing you...

edit: and no, G dorian cannot look like anything. G dorian cannot look like G mixolydian....
Last edited by Guitar_Poet at Feb 2, 2008,
#21
i didnt say that modes were JUST shapes... but, they ARE shapes, particularly if youre looking at a diagram (as the TS is). what i originally said was that if the TS only knew mode shapes, this was another way to think about it. im sorry i mentioned it, as its obviously confusing you...


Those "shapes" you keep talking about can be any one of seven modes depending on the harmony. Scales aren't box shapes.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#22
Quote by Archeo Avis
Those "shapes" you keep talking about can be any one of seven modes depending on the harmony. Scales aren't box shapes.


maybe i should specify even moreso... the dorian mode, starting on the low E string, played within six frets (starting on the lowest possible fret WITHIN those six frets--in this case G on the third fret) on the guitar, has a distinct shape. its sad that i have to get this specific, as i think the majority of people would have understood my point... in fact, im pretty sure you knew what i was talking about, but you just strive to make me look dumb/ill-informed...

and like i said, if youre looking at a diagram (as the TS was when looking at the book), it is indeed a shape. i dont understand how you cannot perceive a particular mode as having a particular shape when starting on a specific note... its really dumbfounding.
Last edited by Guitar_Poet at Feb 2, 2008,
#23
but you just strive to make me look dumb/ill-informed...


I strive to teach people the correct theory behind music concepts, not just box shapes that will hold them back.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#24
Box shapes are only really useful in combination with other methods of finding your place on the fretboard. If you know what your place in the harmony of the song is, then you're doing it right irrespective of box shapes.
Quote by marmoseti
Mastering your instrument is being able to play whatever you hear in your head, unhindered by inadequate technique. After that, it's all about what you've got to say, so there would be no "best," just a bunch of people saying exactly what they mean.
#25
Quote by Archeo Avis
I strive to teach people the correct theory behind music concepts, not just box shapes that will hold them back.


youre speaking theoretically, and im speaking visually. visually, all it is is a shape, nothing more, nothing less. its just another way to look at it... the TS's question was:

"What is the best way to practice the scales in this book?"

the TS didnt request any lesson on theory... just on ways to practice scales in the book. i gave one idea... which, in my opinion, makes it a lot easier to visualize a particular scale all over the fretboard (when youre a beginner or dont have the fretboard memorized). theoretically its a different story, but like i said, we're not talking about theory here. i guess "technically" this thread should be somewhere else...
#26
The problem is that shapes will change with tuning. If you have a good understanding of the notes and intervals, you should be able to play in different tunings without too much hassle.

Satch would say that it's helpful to visually know your options yes, but he also says that you should see the pattern over the entire fretboard - not just one position.
Quote by marmoseti
Mastering your instrument is being able to play whatever you hear in your head, unhindered by inadequate technique. After that, it's all about what you've got to say, so there would be no "best," just a bunch of people saying exactly what they mean.
#27
Quote by MadassAlex
The problem is that shapes will change with tuning. If you have a good understanding of the notes and intervals, you should be able to play in different tunings without too much hassle.


yea youre right. i believe the Guitar Grimoire assumes you are in standard tuning, though.

Quote by MadassAlex
Satch would say that it's helpful to visually know your options yes, but he also says that you should see the pattern over the entire fretboard - not just one position.


using the idea i presented makes it easy to visualize the pattern over the entire fretboard... at least, it works for me. its different for everyone though... what works for me may not work for someone else, but i thought id present the idea just in case it was helpful. i trust satch's ideas are worth 10000000000000X mine too
Last edited by Guitar_Poet at Feb 2, 2008,
#28
Basically it comes down to this:

If you understand how the intervals of a scale work, you can play it anywhere without visualising the shapes on the fretboard because you can hear and "feel" the intervals at work and know the distance to the defining notes of a scale.
I've personally found that as my ears have gotten sharper and my knowledge of intervals and their applications has grown, this has been a much more effective soloing method than switching from box shape to box shape since rather than me just playing notes that are within the scale, I'm consciously choosing a note that conveys the idea that I want to pass on.
Quote by marmoseti
Mastering your instrument is being able to play whatever you hear in your head, unhindered by inadequate technique. After that, it's all about what you've got to say, so there would be no "best," just a bunch of people saying exactly what they mean.
#29
yea, but that takes a lot of time and practice. the TS obviously isnt at that level (your level) yet, and neither am i, tbh. i understand how the scales work, but im not quite at the level where i can solo without seeing the shapes. there are times when i just kick back and start playing over some chords and it sounds good, but when i consciously try to do it, i simply cant.
#30
the point is, F major, starting on the note G, has the same shape that the dorian mode does
It doesn't even matter what note you start on, F major has the same shape as G dorian.


i dont care what it sounds like, or what its purpose is... my point is that it LOOKS the same.
In that case why did you even mention modes to the threadstarter? His book has all the postitions of the major scale, and the scale all over the fretboard. I've been correcting your posts because I don't want the TS to think that playing F major in the second position means he is playing G dorian.


um, actually yes it IS just the notes of F major starting on G
My problem is with your use of the word 'just'. It (and your entire post) implies that that's all there is to know about modes - that they are the major scale starting on a different note.


way to take things out of context. the sentence was actually:

"the "second position" of F major (starting on G) is... G dorian (which is just the notes of F major starting on G)"
And how does that make a difference? You're still saying that the second postion of F major is G dorian.


right here: the "second position" of F major (starting on G) LOOKS LIKE... G dorian (which is just the notes of F major starting on G)"

^ not hard to see.
Your timeline is screwy. You posted that correction AFTER you said that you had actually stated it in your first post. And it's still wrong about G dorian 'just' being the notes of F major starting on G.

what i originally said was that if the TS only knew mode shapes, this was another way to think about it.
I know thats what you said, but its the wrong way to think about it.


edit: and no, G dorian cannot look like anything. G dorian cannot look like G mixolydian....
True, I worded that wrong. What I should have written was that G dorian can look like any of it's relative modes.


the dorian mode, starting on the low E string, played within six frets (starting on the lowest possible fret WITHIN those six frets--in this case G on the third fret) on the guitar, has a distinct shape
It also has a distinct shape if it starts on Bb or any note in G dorian, and it also shares that shape with E locrian, and all of it's relative modes. That shape is not what makes dorian mode what it is.


youre speaking theoretically, and im speaking visually. visually, all it is is a shape, nothing more, nothing less
And as we've been saying, modes are not just shapes. Now do you see that you aren't actually talking about modes? your talking about scale positions but calling them modes.

the TS didnt request any lesson on theory...
So why bring up the concept of modes in the first place?


To finally answer ERA, practice every scale in that book all over the fretboard. Learn many different ways of moving through the scale (thirds, fourths, ascending, descending, skipping strings etc). Use a metronome and play the scales with different note subdivisions (triplets, sixteenths etc). Practice playing the scale using all down strokes, alternate picking, and economy picking. Theres a heap of ways to practice scales.
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
Last edited by Ænimus Prime at Feb 2, 2008,
#31
Quote by Ænimus Prime
It also has a distinct shape if it starts on Bb or any note in G dorian, and it also shares that shape with E locrian, and all of it's relative modes. That shape is not what makes dorian mode what it is.


i understand your point.

the dorian scale is made up of a whole step, a half step, a whole step, a whole step, a whole step, a half step, and finally another whole step. the G dorian mode contains all the same notes as the F major scale, but it starts on G. these are two things i hope we can all agree on.

like i said before (in response to someone else), i was speaking visually. i would hope this was obvious to you, but it wasnt.

In that case why did you even mention modes to the threadstarter?


because i was trying to help him visualize F major over the entire fretboard, and using that idea works for me. i know i came off as sounding ignorant in terms of music theory, but hey, ive been over this plenty of times... i wasnt talking about music theory, i was talking about patterns/shapes that one would see in a book.

It (and your entire post) implies that that's all there is to know about modes - that they are the major scale starting on a different note.


i disagree. had i said "modes are just the major scale starting on different notes," you would be right... but i didnt say that. AGAIN, i was talking about visual patterns/shapes, not music theory...

*although come to think of it, would you mind explaining what else modes are? aside from the fact that they are any of various arrangements of diatonic tones within whatever octave, i mean... sure they have different tonal centers, but thats all in how you play/accent them, isnt it? so what else are they?

I know thats what you said, but its the wrong way to think about it.


i dont think one can say its the WRONG way to think about it. hell, it works for me. just because it is confusing to you or because you are unable to understand why it works for me doesnt make it the "wrong" way to think about it. there really is no "wrong" way to visualize something.

again

So why bring up the concept of modes in the first place?


i never tried to explain the concept of modes, i was simply talking about the dorian mode's visual appearance (what the TS would see in the book).
Last edited by Guitar_Poet at Feb 2, 2008,
#32
the dorian scale is made up of a whole step, a half step, a whole step, a whole step, a whole step, a half step, and finally another whole step. the G dorian mode contains all the same notes as the F major scale, but it starts on G. these are two things i hope we can all agree on.
It doesn't have to start on G, but the tonal centre is G.


i disagree. had i said "modes are just the major scale starting on different notes," you would be right... but i didnt say that.
You basically did say that (although less generally) when you said that G Dorian is just the F major scale starting on G.


*although come to think of it, would you mind explaining what else modes are?
STANDARD RESPONSE TO MODES THREADS FOLLOWS

Okay, a mode of the major scale contains the same notes as the major scale, but the root is a different note. This is just explaining where modes come from, but I don't think of them like this when actually using them.
D Ionian (major) is D E F# G A B C#
E Dorian (second mode) is E F# G A B C# D
A mixolydian (fifth mode) is A B C# D E F# G
They contain the same notes but have different tonal centres.

So, they contain the same notes but they are definately different scales. I think of modes as alterations to the major scale.
Ionian (Major) 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Dorian 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
Phrygian 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Lydian 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
Mixolydian 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7
Aeolian (Natural Minor) 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Locrian 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7

So, for F Phrygian you start with the F major scale, F G A Bb C D E
Then flatten the 2 3 6 and 7 to get 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
And you end up with the notes F Gb Ab Bb C Db Eb.

Now, when playing modes over chords, look at the intervals making up the chord and the intervals making up the mode. If they match up, they will sound good together.
Say a Cm chord comes up, thats 1 b3 5. Look at the modes and you see that Dorian, Phrygian and Aeolian all contain those intervals.
So you could play C Dorian, C Phrygian or C Aeolian, which one you chose will give a different feel.
Now if an Amaj7 comes along, thats 1 3 5 7. Compare that to the modes and you see that you can play A Ionian or A Lydian, againg giving different feels.
What about a Bbm7b5? You see that the only mode with 1 b3 b5 b7 is Locrian, so you can play Bb Locrian
With an E7 (1 3 5 b7) you find that only Mixolydian fits, so you can play E mixolydian

JohnlJones Jazz-Theory Bit:
With that E7 you could play E Phrygian, with the b3 funtioning as a #2, to outline an altered dominant chord.
E7 - 1 3 4 b7
E Phrygian 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
This gives the intervals 1 b2 #2 3 4 5 b6 b7 which is a _11b9#9b13 chord.

Remember none of this is law, it's just a guide so don't be afraid to experiment.
Hope this helps

The way to use modes and get their different sounds is to think of the intervals it is made up of. Phrygian has a b2, a dark, dissononant interval. Lydian has a #4, which sounds... I dunno how to describe it but it sounds cool. Mixolydian is like the major scale but has a b7, making it bluesy and dominant.

Just drone the low E string, keep it ringing (clean setting works best). Then on the remaining five stings, play E Phrygian, E lydian, E Aeloian, E Ionian etc. and emphasise the unique intervals in each. Really listen to each scales' characteristics. Try making a melody from each mode while droning the E string.

Once you have done this, watch this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWHKeC4IEgA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoGQ9yHOyZQ


i dont think one can say its the WRONG way to think about it
Saying/thinking that the second position of F major is G dorian is wrong. I think it's better (less confusing) to call it what it actually is, the second position of the F major scale. Call a mode a mode and call a position a position.


i was simply talking about the dorian mode's visual appearance
The dorian mode's visual appearance is exactly the same as any other mode of the major scale.
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#33
whatever man... like i said, it works for me. i know the difference, im not dumb enough to confuse them. its simply a way for me to visually see it all over the fretboard. whether you say F major in the second position or G dorian, youre still going to be playing the same thing. it doesnt work for you, and thats fine.

i dont think you really defined modes as anything other than what i did. we all know that they are "the same notes as the major scale, but the root is a different note.".. i stated that already (even though it is blatantly obvious). and yes they obviously have different tonal centers, but you can play the dorian or locrian or whatever mode and make it SOUND like ionian. so in reality, there isnt THAT much to modes.

you could potentially play any minor mode over a simple minor chord... any scale that has a b3 would potentially work... it depends on what sounds good to you. you only really need to specify a particular scale when the chord is really specific... for example Em7b5 (i prefer the term E 1/2 diminished) is 1, b3, b5, and b7... thus, as you stated, the only mode that works is E locrian.

really, modes are not that complex. its obvious that you really know your ****, and maybe i shouldnt have mentioned my way of thinking about it... because it is a bit misleading if you dont understand the subject already. i do understand the subject, so it doesnt confuse me to think of it that way. this argument is really pointless, as at this point we're pretty much just saying the same thing back and forth. so im done... peace.
Last edited by Guitar_Poet at Feb 2, 2008,
#34
Quote by MadassAlex
The problem is that shapes will change with tuning. If you have a good understanding of the notes and intervals, you should be able to play in different tunings without too much hassle.

Satch would say that it's helpful to visually know your options yes, but he also says that you should see the pattern over the entire fretboard - not just one position.


there is nothing wrong with learning a scale position. Ultimately knowing the entire neck is a good thing, but learning 1 position shouldnt be looked down upon. Its a place to start.

Also I keep hearing from Archeo that you shouldnt learn shapes or patterns on the neck. I have to say I completely disagree with that idea. Any relationship between notes on the neck can be seen as a shape, whether its an interval, a triad, a scale pattern.... whatever.... its all shapes. Being aware of those shapes, and using them to your advantage can only serve to benefit you. It doesnt make sense to me to disregard that fact.
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Feb 2, 2008,
#35
Quote by Ænimus Prime

So, they contain the same notes but they are definately different scales. I think of modes as alterations to the major scale.
Ionian (Major) 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Dorian 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
Phrygian 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Lydian 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
Mixolydian 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7
Aeolian (Natural Minor) 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Locrian 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7


^ this is an important relationship. You can also compare each mode to the scale its closest to. To me it makes it easier when it comes to apply it.

compare minor modes to the minor scale and Major modes to the Major scale

dorian = minor with a raised (natural) 6
phrygian = minor with a b2
lydian = Major with a #4 (#11)
mixolydian = Major with a b7


I like to think of it this way. If you play dorian and then natural minor over a static minor chord you can really hear the different colors that they offer.


BTW aenimus, I got your message. Tried to reply but it says your profile doesnt exist.
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Feb 2, 2008,
#36
Quote by MadassAlex
The problem is that shapes will change with tuning. If you have a good understanding of the notes and intervals, you should be able to play in different tunings without too much hassle.

Satch would say that it's helpful to visually know your options yes, but he also says that you should see the pattern over the entire fretboard - not just one position.


Partly true I think. Shapes help you internalize what you theoretically understand.
Like or not, you really do have to know the shapes in order to be able to play
effortlessly without having to stop and mentally parse a scale formula. So, while
I perfectly understand the major scale "formula", I've internalized how to play it
in standard tuning. If I went to another tuning, I'd not be able to play easily without
"too much hassle". Physically I'd be in a completely new world of having to
reinternalize of what I already know.

I never understand these arguments. There's a shape for EVERYTHING on the
guitar. When you're translating your theory to the fretboad, you pretty much have
to internalize these shapes in order improvise in real time. You just can't stop
at learning the finger position "box" shapes. There's lots more you have to add to
it.
#37
Quote by edg
Partly true I think. Shapes help you internalize what you theoretically understand.
Like or not, you really do have to know the shapes in order to be able to play
effortlessly without having to stop and mentally parse a scale formula. So, while
I perfectly understand the major scale "formula", I've internalized how to play it
in standard tuning. If I went to another tuning, I'd not be able to play easily without
"too much hassle". Physically I'd be in a completely new world of having to
reinternalize of what I already know.

I never understand these arguments. There's a shape for EVERYTHING on the
guitar. When you're translating your theory to the fretboad, you pretty much have
to internalize these shapes in order improvise in real time. You just can't stop
at learning the finger position "box" shapes. There's lots more you have to add to
it.



exactly.

also if you change tunings..... your shapes change... so do all your notes....whether your looking at shapes or just the notes/ intervals, its still some work to get oriented in the new tuning.....


There is absolutely no reason to avoid seeing the shapes on the fretboard. They are helpful - not a hinderance.
#38
whatever man... like i said, it works for me. i know the difference, im not dumb enough to confuse them. its simply a way for me to visually see it all over the fretboard. whether you say F major in the second position or G dorian, youre still going to be playing the same thing. it doesnt work for you, and thats fine.

no offence but G dorian and f maj have the relationship of the same notes there for no matter what "box position" you play in they are the same. if you where to play in the first postion using G as the root note it would still be the same thus giving you that the "box positions" will hold you back thinking that only the second position is correct when really they share the same notes all over the fret board.

edit: YOU DO NOT NEED TO START ON THE LOW E FOR THE ROOT NOTE IT CAN BE ON ANY STRING

the first position of F major using the root note G is G dorian. same with the second and third and forth .... ect.

i think he is trying to make the man understand how it is formed and not mearly that it is the same as f maj. the construction theororetically is different and he needs to understand those differences to become better.
song stuck in my head today


Last edited by lbc_sublime at Feb 2, 2008,
#39
Quote by lbc_sublime

if you where to play in the first postion using G as the root note it would still be the same thus giving you that the "box positions" will hold you back thinking that only the second position is correct when really they share the same notes all over the fret board.


yea, but i didnt say that did i? i said starting on the second position, which requires one to move their index finger (or whatever finger) from the F to the G and start playing the scale from there (without moving down)... the notes are of course the same all over the fretboard, but im talking about in this particular position. like i said this argument is really stupid now. obviously you dont understand what im talking about, so dont try to get it. it works for me, and it therefore doesnt concern you.


edit: YOU DO NOT NEED TO START ON THE LOW E FOR THE ROOT NOTE IT CAN BE ON ANY STRING


no, you dont. but i dont think the TS is stupid enough to think that you do... so i presented a way of thinking about it differently. you could start F major on the third fret of the D string, and if you go backwards (towards you, not moving down any frets), the shape is the same visually as g dorian. call it "F major in the second position" if you want, its the same **** as long as you dont get confused by it. i really dont see where youre going with this anyway.

Quote by lbc_sublime
i think he is trying to make the man understand how it is formed and not mearly that it is the same as f maj. the construction theororetically is different and he needs to understand those differences to become better.


again, my point was not to teach the TS theory because (s)he did not request it.

edit: i cant believe i let myself get sucked back into this pointless madness.

you can post all you want about "ZOMGZ THATS NOT WHAT DORIAN MODE ARE" but its a joke, because i wasnt explaining anything about theory. i started off talking about shapes, not theory... so trying to say im wrong about the theory is really... dumb. a lot of people have to learn the "shapes" or "patterns"... even you said:

Quote by lbc_sublime
this is the first position in G major

e|----------------|
B|----------------|
G|----------------|
D|----------2-4-5-|
A|----2-3-5-------|
E|3-5-------------|


but hey, going by what you just said, that isnt just the first position of G major. it could be any of the modes... if you started on A it would be A dorian, for example........ or better yet:


edit: YOU DO NOT NEED TO START ON THE LOW E FOR THE ROOT NOTE IT CAN BE ON ANY STRING


but do you see? i was never talking about theory......
Last edited by Guitar_Poet at Feb 2, 2008,
#40
GP, I know you weren't trying to give ERA a lesson on theory, but the fact is that as soon as you mention modes, you're talking about theory (and theory that is hard to understand for beginners).

I've seen it scores of times on this forum where people think of modes as having one particular position. Then they see the chord progression C F G, they know that D Dorian has the same notes as C major (but thats all they know), so they think that if they play their 'dorian shape' over that pregression that they are playing dorian. But the fact is that it sounds like, and is, C major.

I beleive much of this confusion can be avoided by calling a position a postition, and calling a mode a mode.

EDIT: And I don't think that anyone (at least not me) is arguing that scales and modes do not have a shape. What we're saying is that they don't have one exclusive box postion that defines them.

i dont think you really defined modes as anything other than what i did
Yes I did. You defined it as 'the major scale starting on a different note'.


but you can play the dorian or locrian or whatever mode and make it SOUND like ionian.
No you can't. You cannot play Aeolian and make it sound like you're playing Ionian because no matter how you phrase it, you will never play a major third, sixth or seventh.
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
Last edited by Ænimus Prime at Feb 2, 2008,
Page 1 of 2