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#1
Found this article today and couldn't believe it. Basically the city of Berkeley California wants the Marine recruiting station to be removed from the city. To me that is a slap in the face to all the men and women that fight for our freedom. This really isn't that surprising considering Berkeley is a very liberal city, I know there are a lot of liberals on here so what do you guys think of it?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,327466,00.html
#2
i agree that it seems to be a slap in the face,
i being a conservative dont agree with that motion, but i understand their reasons for doing so
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#3
Considering that recruiters will lie to anyone just to get them to join a branch of the military because they work on commission (yes thats true), I don't see a problem with it. If someone wants to join the military, I mean really want to join, they will get off their ass and do it. That has nothing to do with the men and women currently serving our country, it's just trying to stop the deceptive behavior that recruiters use to recruit kids coming out of high school;
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#4
Quote by GuitarJunkie
Considering that recruiters will lie to anyone just to get them to join a branch of the military because they work on commission (yes thats true), I don't see a problem with it. If someone wants to join the military, I mean really want to join, they will get off their ass and do it. That has nothing to do with the men and women currently serving our country, it's just trying to stop the deceptive behavior that recruiters use to recruit kids coming out of high school;

Really?

Well good luck to Berkeley. It's hard to throw marines out of any where.
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#5
Interesting. The recruiting office, in my opinion, has a right to be there. I say that cringing, war isn't justified to me. The army is a voluntary thing, however...
#6
Quote by GuitarJunkie
Considering that recruiters will lie to anyone just to get them to join a branch of the military because they work on commission (yes thats true), I don't see a problem with it. If someone wants to join the military, I mean really want to join, they will get off their ass and do it. That has nothing to do with the men and women currently serving our country, it's just trying to stop the deceptive behavior that recruiters use to recruit kids coming out of high school;


What do they lie about? I personally have never talked to a recruiter so I don't really know what they say. Yeah also they are trying to remove a Federal building, good luck with that.
Last edited by Doobergn at Feb 2, 2008,
#7
Quote by GuitarJunkie
Considering that recruiters will lie to anyone just to get them to join a branch of the military because they work on commission (yes thats true), I don't see a problem with it. If someone wants to join the military, I mean really want to join, they will get off their ass and do it. That has nothing to do with the men and women currently serving our country, it's just trying to stop the deceptive behavior that recruiters use to recruit kids coming out of high school;


Excellent point. There's probably a way to go about something like this without necessarily kicking the recruiting office out of the city.
#8
Quote by Doobergn
What do they lie about? I personally have never talked to a recruiter so I don't really know what they say.


I've had recruiters come after me ever since I turned 18. I know in the past the length of duty has been increased from what the recruit agreed to. They also tend to advertise the 'good' (aka non-front line) military duties. So people sign up. And they get a ticket to Baghdad. And die. Not what was planned, really. That is my interpretation, take it with a grain of salt.
#10
Quote by ThirstyWoodenWh
I've had recruiters come after me ever since I turned 18. I know in the past the length of duty has been increased from what the recruit agreed to. They also tend to advertise the 'good' (aka non-front line) military duties. So people sign up. And they get a ticket to Baghdad. And die. Not what was planned, really. That is my interpretation, take it with a grain of salt.


I don't see anything wrong with any of that. Any semi-intelligent person knows that just because you aren't on the front lines you can still get injured or die. No one plans on getting killed unfortunately it happens sometimes though.

I think it is worse that people are trying to revoke funding for these people practicing their voting rights and getting what the majority wants done, done.


If they don't want to support the armed forces that fight so they have voting rights why should we support them?
Last edited by Doobergn at Feb 2, 2008,
#11
Quote by Doobergn
What do they lie about? I personally have never talked to a recruiter so I don't really know what they say. Yeah also they are trying to remove a Federal building, good luck with that.



I'm not going to say that every recruiter lies about everything, that would be to broad of a generalization (just to get that out of the way for anyone who thinks I think they alll lie). However they will often intentionally mislead possible recruits with certain promised of money for education etc. that many times (although they are suppose to) they do not follow through on. One example is my cousin who joined the Navy. He completely boot camp in Chicago, soon after he slipped on some black ice and injured his hip. The Navy doctor said that the pain he was having had no relation to the fall and that he had a degenerative bone disease that was affecting his hip. Because they claimed the injury was genetic (and thus was not caused by anything he did after joining the Navy) they gave him a medical discharge and are now not required to pay any of his medical bills or give him any of the money (other then his sign on bonus which he already received) or training which he was promised. He went to see a doctor about two weeks after his discharge because the pain in his hip was not getting any better and it turned out he had a minor hairline fracture on his hip. In other words, he has no bone disease, but the Navy does not recognize this diagnosis because the exam was not performed by a military doctor.

This is just one example, and the only reason I know about it is because it concerns a relative whom I am very close to, but I highly doubt that this has not happened before and is still happening in the military today.

The reason I bring specific case up is because the recruiter told my cousin that any medical cost of injuries that he suffered while in the military would be paid for by the Navy. However, all the Navy had to do was lie about his injury and that was that.
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#12
I've no problem with recruiters being kicked out of anywhere.

They do it here in Scotland, find the poorest schools in the worst areas and target the no-hopers.
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#13
Quote by meh!
I've no problem with recruiters being kicked out of anywhere.

They do it here in Scotland, find the poorest schools in the worst areas and target the no-hopers.


That really does not pertain to this situation though.
#14
Quote by Doobergn
That really does not pertain to this situation though.



I have no problem with recruiters being kicked out of anywhere. Did you read that sentence? It certainly does pertain to that situation. I have no love of the army and I was giving a reason in particular why I do not like recruiters. I bet they're the same all over the world.

Even if these ones are different, I have no love of the army and wouldn't mind their recruiters being kicked out of any town.

Does it pertain enough now?
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#16
Quote by Doobergn
If they don't want to support the armed forces that fight so they have voting rights why should we support them?
Excuse me? Since when have the armed forces directly secured our voting rights? When have our voting rights even been directly threatened by outside entities? This isn't the Cold War/Missile Crisis, WWII/Pearl Harbor. 9/11 was a terrorist attack by a small group of people, not a country. And that has in no way threatened our rights to vote. All our armed forces are doing, are being stuck in the middle east to bring some good ol' justice and democracy, with our American hammer of infinite wisdom.

Edit: And if you don't think it is bad to not have the right to be able to vote recruiters out of a city then you obviously don't understand the importance of the right to vote in a democratic society.
Last edited by DorkusMalorkus at Feb 2, 2008,
#17
Quote by DorkusMalorkus
Excuse me? Since when have the armed forces directly secured our voting rights? When have our voting rights even been directly threatened by outside entities? This isn't the Cold War/Missile Crisis, WWII/Pearl Harbor. 9/11 was a terrorist attack by a small group of people, not a country. And that has in no way threatened our rights to vote. All our armed forces are doing, are being stuck in the middle east to bring some good ol' justice and democracy, with our American hammer of infinite wisdom.

All right. Lets eliminate our military and see how long it takes for that to change.
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#18
Quote by Jackal58
All right. Lets eliminate our military and see how long it takes for that to change.
You obviously don't understand what Berkeley is trying to do, if you are jumping to that conclusion. Nor do you understand the point of my post at all.

Berkeley's city council should have every right to outlaw RECRUITING in THEIR city. As if they are trying to eliminate the army.

Our army is necessary for protection. To defend. Not to do what they are doing in Iraq. I don't blame the recruited. I blame the politicians.
Last edited by DorkusMalorkus at Feb 2, 2008,
#19
Quote by DorkusMalorkus
Excuse me? Since when have the armed forces directly secured our voting rights? When have our voting rights even been directly threatened by outside entities? This isn't the Cold War/Missile Crisis, WWII/Pearl Harbor. 9/11 was a terrorist attack by a small group of people, not a country. And that has in no way threatened our rights to vote. All our armed forces are doing, are being stuck in the middle east to bring some good ol' justice and democracy, with our American hammer of infinite wisdom.

Edit: And if you don't think it is bad to not have the right to be able to vote recruiters out of a city then you obviously don't understand the importance of the right to vote in a democratic society.


Because if god forbid someone does threaten this country and tries to invade us who is going to protect us? What if California gets invaded? I'm betting the city of Berkeley would want Marines to come to their aid. The same Marines they are showing no support for.
#20
Quote by Doobergn
Because if god forbid someone does threaten this country and tries to invade us who is going to protect us? What if California gets invaded? I'm betting the city of Berkeley would want Marines to come to their aid. The same Marines they are showing no support for.
What if? What if? What if?

What if they don't? They won't. What country is going to invade the largest super power on earth? Unless someone wants to start a World War III. 9/11 wasn't even an invasion. The armed forces couldn't intervene. Use some common sense. It isn't going to happen.
#21
Quote by DorkusMalorkus
What if? What if? What if?

What if they don't? They won't. What country is going to invade the largest super power on earth? Unless someone wants to start a World War III. 9/11 wasn't even an invasion. The armed forces couldn't intervene. Use some common sense. It isn't going to happen.

It's a shame how many Americans still believe that, eh?
#22
Good for Berkley. woo

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#23
Hmm.

I vote to remove federal government funding, in any form whatsoever, that goes to Berkeley.

I think they're stupid.

Good luck getting the Marines out.

Heaven forbid people out there do their own ****ing research instead of just blaming recruiters for the idiocy of youth. Military recruiters are no worse than college recruiters.

For the record, every recruiter I've talked to, of any branch, has tried to persuade me to NOT choose the infantry position. Some of you are talking out of your ass.
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Last edited by Dreadnought at Feb 2, 2008,
#24
Quote by Jackal58
Really?

Well good luck to Berkeley. It's hard to throw marines out of any where.

Yeah look at Iraq
#25
Quote by HanPlaysBass
Yeah look at Iraq


That'd be the politicians fault. Stfu.
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#26
Quote by DorkusMalorkus
You obviously don't understand what Berkeley is trying to do, if you are jumping to that conclusion. Nor do you understand the point of my post at all.

Berkeley's city council should have every right to outlaw RECRUITING in THEIR city. As if they are trying to eliminate the army.

Our army is necessary for protection. To defend. Not to do what they are doing in Iraq. I don't blame the recruited. I blame the politicians.

Yes Iraq I blame the politicians. Start with bush and then add in a pinch of spineless congress and you get Iraq.
I fully understand what Berkeley is attempting to do. I find it disgusting. I also understand what Sen. DeMint is saying. He is saying if the city of Berkeley Ca. say ok Feds gtfo then we are going to get all the way out. They can't have it both ways.

Since when have the armed forces directly secured our voting rights?

Your words not mine. What did I misunderstand? Every night you go to bed there are several million American citizens around the world that have pledged their lives to providing you the opportunity to say whatever you like.
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#27
Quote by Dreadnought
Hmm.

I vote to remove federal government funding, in any form whatsoever, that goes to Berkeley.

I think they're stupid.

Good luck getting the Marines out.

I understand why you and many others might be angry because they don't support the Marines recruiting stations, but if the marines really are 'securing our voting rights' shouldn't they agree that any vote (even a vote to get rid of the station in their city) shouldn't have consequences that would force them out of their majority decision? Does that not defeat the purpose of 'securing our voting rights?"
#28
Quote by DorkusMalorkus
I understand why you and many others might be angry because they don't support the Marines recruiting stations, but if the marines really are 'securing our voting rights' shouldn't they agree that any vote (even a vote to get rid of the station in their city) shouldn't have consequences that would force them out of their majority decision? Does that not defeat the purpose of 'securing our voting rights?"

The last time our nation had political entities deciding by vote that the Union was wrong and we are leaving it got kind of messy.
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#29
Quote by Jackal58
The last time our nation had political entities deciding by vote that the Union was wrong and we are leaving it got kind of messy.
If I am correct in gathering from that poorly worded sentence that you are referring to the Civil War, that is a completely different situation in which cession was inevitable with slavery in half of the nation. Compromise of 1820, compromise of 1850, Kansas-Nebraska Act and Bleeding Kansas, Wilmot-Proviso? All these things failed to satisfy anyone when it came to slavery, and the only way to solve it was by force.

It was completely different.
#30
wow.

take money from the schools and give it to the marines?!?!?!
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#31
Quote by DorkusMalorkus
I understand why you and many others might be angry because they don't support the Marines recruiting stations, but if the marines really are 'securing our voting rights' shouldn't they agree that any vote (even a vote to get rid of the station in their city) shouldn't have consequences that would force them out of their majority decision? Does that not defeat the purpose of 'securing our voting rights?"


I don't care what a bunch of ill-informed and foolish citizens decide to do, in their city of wasted intellectuals, in their voting processes. I simply say that should they vote to remove the Marine (why just the Marines?) recruiting station, we cut all other federal funding.

I have no tolerance for the stupid.
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#32
Quote by Dreadnought
I don't care what a bunch of ill-informed and foolish citizens decide to do, in their city of wasted intellectuals, in their voting processes. I simply say that should they vote to remove the Marine (why just the Marines?) recruiting station, we cut all other federal funding.

I have no tolerance for the stupid.

You obviously do care. I don't see why their "foolish: decisions cause you to want to coerce them out of it by withholding funds, especially if you don't care.
#33
Quote by DorkusMalorkus
You obviously do care. I don't see why their "foolish: decisions cause you to want to coerce them out of it by withholding funds, especially if you don't care.

I think he cares more than you can imagine. So do I. Go read my post I think you missed.
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#34
Hey, it's a professional military in the U.S. that means one that follows the government's orders and respects it's soverignty--if you don't think that's how it should be, you don't stand by the ideals of liberal democracy (if you think liberal in this sentence means leftist, you're too uneducated to comment on the topic at all). Now our government happens to more or less be a democratic republic run by the citizens of that country. Therefor there is nothing unAmerican about those controlling the govt (citizens) asking the professional military to leave an area. They get to make decisions like that, that's the point of our country.

...In principle, of course the division between a federal entity like the Marines and a single state or municipality makes it a little more complicated legally. Still, I don't think you can respect American democracy if you demand that people who think differently than you shouldn't get to push for the issues they want.

If we didn't bitch about the government everyday for the last 250 years the United States wouldn't be here today.
#35
Quote by Doobergn
Found this article today and couldn't believe it. Basically the city of Berkeley California wants the Marine recruiting station to be removed from the city. To me that is a slap in the face to all the men and women that fight for our freedom. This really isn't that surprising considering Berkeley is a very liberal city, I know there are a lot of liberals on here so what do you guys think of it?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,327466,00.html


You accept fox as a real news source.... And for this you fail.
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#36
Quote by Prove_i_Did_It
You accept fox as a real news source.... And for this you fail.



he doth speaketh the truth! fox is a conservative propaganda machine, not a news channel.
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#37
Quote by GuitarJunkie
I'm not going to say that every recruiter lies about everything, that would be to broad of a generalization (just to get that out of the way for anyone who thinks I think they alll lie). However they will often intentionally mislead possible recruits with certain promised of money for education etc. that many times (although they are suppose to) they do not follow through on. One example is my cousin who joined the Navy. He completely boot camp in Chicago, soon after he slipped on some black ice and injured his hip. The Navy doctor said that the pain he was having had no relation to the fall and that he had a degenerative bone disease that was affecting his hip. Because they claimed the injury was genetic (and thus was not caused by anything he did after joining the Navy) they gave him a medical discharge and are now not required to pay any of his medical bills or give him any of the money (other then his sign on bonus which he already received) or training which he was promised. He went to see a doctor about two weeks after his discharge because the pain in his hip was not getting any better and it turned out he had a minor hairline fracture on his hip. In other words, he has no bone disease, but the Navy does not recognize this diagnosis because the exam was not performed by a military doctor.

This is just one example, and the only reason I know about it is because it concerns a relative whom I am very close to, but I highly doubt that this has not happened before and is still happening in the military today.

The reason I bring specific case up is because the recruiter told my cousin that any medical cost of injuries that he suffered while in the military would be paid for by the Navy. However, all the Navy had to do was lie about his injury and that was that.


Please, unless you have been in the military, don't act like you know what goes on. Yes, the recruiters do fudge the facts in order to hit their qouta. But geuss what? Some guy telling you that you'll get a few grand more a year is not going to put you over the edge on deciding to join the military or not. If someone joins it is because they had other reasons. Those dumb**** "free-spirits" in Berklee just don't know how the real world works. What do they think that will do? If someone is intent on joining the marines they will go to a different recruiting center. Or ask online recruiters. The Marines aren't going around forcing people to join. It is a voluntary kind of thing.
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#38
Quote by FendermanOC
Please, unless you have been in the military, don't act like you know what goes on. Yes, the recruiters do fudge the facts in order to hit their qouta. But geuss what? Some guy telling you that you'll get a few grand more a year is not going to put you over the edge on deciding to join the military or not. If someone joins it is because they had other reasons. Those dumb**** "free-spirits" in Berklee just don't know how the real world works. What do they think that will do? If someone is intent on joining the marines they will go to a different recruiting center. Or ask online recruiters. The Marines aren't going around forcing people to join. It is a voluntary kind of thing.



True enough for the most part, but I don't think the issue is forcing people, I think it is that some think the recruiting strategies are unethical. THere is some nuance between those two things, but it doesn't automatically make it OK if someone isn't being "forced." And I do want to disagree about a few thousand dollars not making a difference, a whole lot of people actually join out of economic "neccesity" and a signing bonus or a link further up the pay scale is a big deal to those people. Of course most of the enlisted probably have other reasons for joining, but the reportedly "unethical" recruitment strategies aren't aimed at these people. You can look at the neighborhoods and schools that recruiters most frequent and see that they definately play off the economic thing. Don't see how that is at all relevent at $$$Berkley though.
#39
Quote by FendermanOC
Please, unless you have been in the military, don't act like you know what goes on. Yes, the recruiters do fudge the facts in order to hit their qouta. But geuss what? Some guy telling you that you'll get a few grand more a year is not going to put you over the edge on deciding to join the military or not. If someone joins it is because they had other reasons. Those dumb**** "free-spirits" in Berklee just don't know how the real world works. What do they think that will do? If someone is intent on joining the marines they will go to a different recruiting center. Or ask online recruiters. The Marines aren't going around forcing people to join. It is a voluntary kind of thing.

If it wont stop anybody, why does it matter that the city removes it? And whats wrong with not wanting our citizens to go kill each other? Can't peace be good for once instead of invading everyone that has a different government than ours? Or maybe we could do something about something that matters, like Darfur. You know, the whole genocide thing going on there...
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#40
That's what i mean. These damn kids act like the military is some damn monster that is forcing them to do something. How are they unethical? If someone thinks that what the recruiter is telling them is good for them, then great. The recruiters can only lie to a point. You have to sign a contract that has everything you wanted on it. If it doesn't, then you can refuse. Most likely the recruiter will give you what you want, in order to reach qouta. It's the idiots who don't read their own contracts own fault. I knew a guy, good guy, not to smart, who joined the rangers about the same time as i did. He was hoping go in for 2 years and then another 2 years of national gaurd duty. However the contract gave him a full service term of 4 years in the Army. It's a miracle he made it through the 4 years i was with him, again he wasn't to smart.
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Last edited by FendermanOC at Feb 2, 2008,
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