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#3
Quote by shinguards13
E# is the same thing as an F


No, it's not. They're enharmonic, but they're not the same thing.
"Their" is not the same as "they're", despite the fact that they sound the same.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#4
^^ what he said. It should be an F scale because E# doesn't exist, and so the notes you used in the scale you wrote out there do not relate to eachother and so are not part of a scale. good try though
#5
Quote by applemangolove
there isn't really an E#, it kinda just goes from E to F.


There is an E# if you raise an E.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#6
Quote by Archeo Avis
No, it's not. They're enharmonic, but they're not the same thing.
"Their" is not the same as "they're", despite the fact that they sound the same.


I guess you could have tried and actually answered the question, rather than just proving me wrong. There isn't an E# scale.
#7
Quote by shinguards13
I guess you could have tried and actually answered the question, rather than just proving me wrong. There isn't an E# scale.


Don't make incorrect statements unless you're willing to be corrected.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#9
If it exists, I think it would look like this.

E# Fx Gx A# B# Cx Dx E#

(the x's are double sharps)

(and that would be the major scale, by the way)
#10
Quote by mlogans91
How does this look?: E# F# G A Bb C D E#


It looks like your either trying to go for E minor, which is E F# G A B C D E, or F major which is F G A Bb C D E F

And
Quote by farcry
If it's diatonically correct play whatever the f key you want to

+1
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#11
its simple if it was E phrygian itd be E F G A B C D, if it was E# phrygian it'd be E# F# G# A# B# C# D#..... and before someone says it, yes, there is a B#, just like theres a Cb.

edit: archeo is totally right here, prolly gonna piss off the guys in here that dont really know their theory, whatever, thats fine. now is E# a really common key? no, not really, but that doesn't make it non-existent.
Last edited by z4twenny at Feb 7, 2008,
#12
Just start on E# (F) and use the major scale intervals that you should know....

Tone Tone Semitone Tone Tone Tone Semitone

The twelve notes are:

F F# G G# A A# B C C# D D# E

E# Ionian:

E# G A A# C D E


I think...I'm a noob though
Last edited by djjiles at Feb 7, 2008,
#13
Quote by z4twenny
its simple if it was E phrygian itd be E F G A B C D, if it was E# phrygian it'd be E# F# G# A# B# C# D#..... and before someone says it, yes, there is a B#, just like theres a Cb.

edit: archeo is totally right here, prolly gonna piss off the guys in here that dont really know their theory, whatever, thats fine. now is E# a really common key? no, not really, but that doesn't make it non-existent.


When would you use E# Major as opposed to just F Major?? And for what reason?
#14
^ thats what we're saying though, E# would be notated on paper differently than F would and although the notes are enharmonic, you would write differently for it.
#15
E# Fx Gx A# B# Cx Dx E#

So it exists, it's just impractical.
Quote by dudetheman
So what? I wasted like 5 minutes watching DaddyTwoFoot's avatar.


Metalheads are the worst thing that ever happened to metal.
#18
Quote by DaddyTwoFoot
E# Fx Gx A# B# Cx Dx E#

So it exists, it's just impractical.


well, its practical in very specific situations. but they're not just all over the place.
#19
I've never seen, heard (or used) a penguin... that doesn't mean they dont exist.

Amongst the other correct answers is this one-

Quote by benh128

E# Fx Gx A# B# Cx Dx E#

(the x's are double sharps)


If it makes it easier for you to understand, then take E Major-
E F# G# A B C# D#

Now raise every degree-

E# F## G## A# B# C## D##
#20
Quote by Archeo Avis
No, it's not. They're enharmonic, but they're not the same thing.
"Their" is not the same as "they're", despite the fact that they sound the same.


Adding to his thoughts. E#, and F actually sound slightly different (unless you are using twelve tone equal temparament tuning, which is based off the frequency ratio between semitones, rather than perfect fifths). If we follow the circle of fifths, until we reach E#, it is twelve places away from F. A fifth has the frequency ratio of 3/2. Therefore, we know that the frequency ratio of E# : F is (3^12)/(2^12). This will, however give us an E# that is seven octaves higher than the F, which it is being compared to, and we need them at the same octave. An octave's frequency ratio is 2:1. To go down an octave, we must use the reciprocal of this, which is 1:2. Therefore, to go down an octave we must multiply our original amount by (1^7)/(2^7). (1^7) is the equal to one, therefore, we must simply use 1/(2^7) as our coefficient to (3^12)/(2^12).

Now lets work out the math.

E# : F = ([3^12]/[2^12])(1/[2^7]) : 1
E# : F = ([3^12]/[2^19]) : 1
E# : F = (531441/524288) :1
E# : F = 1.01364 : 1

This ratio shows that E# is slightly higher in pitch than F. Most of our instruments play them the same, as it would be unpractical to make another note for the others ( as well as another note for Gbb, which would be slightly flatter than F). Some instruments are not limited in pitch, such as violins and trombones. People who play these will probably tell you that they intonate E# slightly higher than F.

This shows that we can use E#, and the argument of "Its useless as it sounds the same as F" is not valid.


Now to somewhat contradict myself

Quote by DaddyTwoFoot
E# Fx Gx A# B# Cx Dx E#

So it exists, it's just impractical.


This is the correct formula, to play E# major. However, our notation system does not allow for double sharps in a key signature, therefore, one cannot play in E#, unless playing modal music using the phrygian or locrian mode, atop a vamp of either E#m (b9), or E#min7(b5), respectively.

Now I have just said earlier that E# does exist, which is true, however no one would write a song in E# major, due to the impracticality of a scale involving 11 sharps.

If anyone can find me a published piece of music written in a key signature of MORE than 7 sharps or flats, I will then stand corrected on my second thought, and we will have proof that E#major does exist. Until then, one can only believe that E#major is impossible to notate, under our current system.
Last edited by isaac_bandits at Feb 8, 2008,
#21
E# is appropriate in some situations, as in a key, you can't have more than one E note/more than one F note etc, ie you can't have E and E# or F and F# in the same key.
#22
Quote by CowboyUp
E# is appropriate in some situations, as in a key, you can't have more than one E note/more than one F note etc, ie you can't have E and E# or F and F# in the same key.


No you can't. This is why E# is used in the key of F# major, and C# major. However, due to our notation system, we cannot have double sharps or double flats in a key signature, and therefore, we can have major keys ranging from Cb to C#, and anywhere between, but we cannot have keys with more than seven sharps (double sharps counting as two sharps. Since E# major requires 11 sharps, it cannot be used.

I challenge you to find a published piece of music in E#, to prove me wrong. If you find one I will stand corrected, but until then, E# major is impossible to notate.
#23
You can do double sharps/double flats in key signatures, it's just that you have to go all the way around the order of sharps/flats in order to get to them, which is reasonable with E# major.

F# C# G# D# A# E# B# F# C# G# D#

It's just a pain to do.
Quote by corduroyEW
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#24
The amount of confusion this topic generates consistently amazes me. Friends and fellow musicians, please hear me: There is no key of E#. Our system of notation permits a maximum of seven sharps or flats to appear in the key signature. This limitation maintains a one-to-one relationship between the seven natural notes (A, B, C, etc.) and the accidentals. We should all be very glad that this standard exists.

If we stop and think about it for just a minute, this limitation makes a lot of sense. After all, notation is not an end in itself. In fact, we only need notation to accomplish two things:
1) guide performance
2) facilitate analysis

Throwing double-sharps and double-flats into the mix makes both of those activities orders of magnitude more difficult, if not impossible.

In the case of the mythical key E#, we'd need 11 sharps in the signature. In practice, this would produce a signature consisting of three sharps (A#, E# & B#) and four double-sharps (FX, CX, GX and DX).

Given the reasons notation exists, let's ask ourselves some quick questions:

1) Concerning performance, would we prefer to read a chart whose signature contained three sharps and four double-sharps, or one with just one flat (F major, E#'s enharmonic)?

2) Concerning analysis, can you imagine performing analyzing a work with double-sharps in the signature?

3) If you can, what do you do when you encounter a point where you need to raise one of the double-sharps a half-step. Do we then go to triple-sharps? What about triple-flats?

Where does this end? Without the useful limitation imposed by the current notational standard, it doesn't.

Some people claim that, while we never see this notation out in the practical world of commercially-published sheet music, these exotic keys do indeed exist in theory. To you I say that it's also theoretically possible to balance a pencil on its point before you leave for work and find it still standing when you get home.

By the way, regarding this statement:
...when making a I-IV key change from B# for starters
...the key of B# doesn't exist, either.

gpb
All things are difficult before they are easy.
- Dr. Thomas Fuller (British physician, 1654-1734)
Quote by Freepower
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#25
^ so Cb exists, but not B#?

granted its not really used, its more theoretical than anything else. but much like E#, i'm fairly certain it exists, maybe not B# major (im in agreeance totally with your evaluation of all the double sharps making it irrelevent/useless) but the note itself i'm fairly certain does exist.
Last edited by z4twenny at Feb 7, 2008,
#26
The note B# exists. The key of B# does not exist. Likewise, the key of G# major does not exist, as writing the key signature would require double sharps.

GPB, I like your pencil comment.
#27
Quote by z4twenny
^ so Cb exists, but not B#?

granted its not really used, its more theoretical than anything else. but much like E#, i'm fairly certain it exists, maybe not B# major (im in agreeance totally with your evaluation of all the double sharps making it irrelevent/useless) but the note itself i'm fairly certain does exist.


Both notes exist. However only a few keys with those as the tonic will exist. Cb ionian and Cb lydian, as well as B# locrian are possible. Other keys with these tonics do not exist.
#29
There a such thing as a 4th step or quarter step and they are used in Eastern music. Think of a guitar with twice as many frets. (frets placed between the standard frets) and yes B#,Cb,E#, and Fb all exist. In some cases they are used when a scale comes out so that the same note will be used more than once or not at all which is against the theory rules.
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Quote by aerosmithfan95
I wanna know what some blues sounding chords I could use in the key of D Aeolian fifth mode of Melodic Minor.

Quote by szekelymihai
try looking for Cm, or any of those complicated jazz chords
#30
Quote by bshizzle911
There a such thing as a 4th step or quarter step and they are used in Eastern music. Think of a guitar with twice as many frets. (frets placed between the standard frets) and yes B#,Cb,E#, and Fb all exist. In some cases they are used when a scale comes out so that the same note will be used more than once or not at all which is against the theory rules.


We know about quarter tones. However quarter tones are noted as things like Bd(read B quarter flat (the symbol is actually a backwards flat)). There is also things such as Bdb(read B three quarter flat (the symbol is a backwards flat sign back to back with a forwards flat sign)). Enharmonically there are quarter sharps (a sharp symbol cut in half to only have one vertical line) and three quarter sharps (a sharp symbol with three vertical lines rather than two).

These notes are not B#, Cb, E#, and Fb (which are actually just the natural notes raised one semitone, and are enharmonically equivalent to C, B, F, and E respectively).

Your idea about why they are used does not make sense to me, but maybe you were stating something correct, and just explained it poorly.
#31
What about something like this....just playing the devil's advocate....

Key of C# = seven sharps. The piece begins modulating gradually one key at a time. In order to facilitate this movement, accidentals are brought in. For a few bars, the F's become double-sharped, making the piece feel like it is in the key of G#. More accidentals are added, and you are now in the key of D#, then A#. The key signature has not yet changed, but you are now adding more accidentals to facilitate this key change. You now go from double-sharped F's, C's, G's, and now add double-sharps on D's using accidentals.

The key signature still shows seven sharps, but with accidentals within the bars, you now have four double-sharps. You are using notes in the key of E# major. What you hear is strongly suggestive of the E# being the new tonic. On paper, all of the harmonic movement suggests that E# is indeed the new tonic chord.

What key would you be in at that point?

*knowing smile*

CT
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#32
Quote by axemanchris
What about something like this....just playing the devil's advocate....

Key of C# = seven sharps. The piece begins modulating gradually one key at a time. In order to facilitate this movement, accidentals are brought in. For a few bars, the F's become double-sharped, making the piece feel like it is in the key of G#. More accidentals are added, and you are now in the key of D#, then A#. The key signature has not yet changed, but you are now adding more accidentals to facilitate this key change. You now go from double-sharped F's, C's, G's, and now add double-sharps on D's using accidentals.

The key signature still shows seven sharps, but with accidentals within the bars, you now have four double-sharps. You are using notes in the key of E# major. What you hear is strongly suggestive of the E# being the new tonic. On paper, all of the harmonic movement suggests that E# is indeed the new tonic chord.

What key would you be in at that point?

*knowing smile*

CT


That is a good thought, and I congratulate you for coming up with it.

However, it is still impossible for us to play the key of E#. In that case you are improperly notating the key of E#, and therefore you must find an alternative, correct, way to notate it.

The correct way would be to start in Db, and then make the G natural, to become Ab, then make the D natural to play in Eb, then make the A natural to play in Bb, then make the E natural to play in F. Each time a new key signature would be used, and you would be playing in the key of F, rather than E#, and it would be properly notated.
#33
Quote by Archeo Avis
No, it's not. They're enharmonic, but they're not the same thing.
"Their" is not the same as "they're", despite the fact that they sound the same.
they are the same thing yr dumb
#34
Quote by punked out N
they are the same thing yr dumb


No, they're not. They imply completely different things.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#35
Quote by punked out N
they are the same thing yr dumb


How about some constructive criticism here?

Maybe present your side with proper spelling, and grammar. Something to back up your ideas might be helpful as well.

Now proof they arent the same thing:

Quote by isaac_bandits
E#, and F actually sound slightly different. If we follow the circle of fifths, until we reach E#, it is twelve places away from F. A fifth has the frequency ratio of 3/2. Therefore, we know that the frequency ratio of E# : F is (3^12)/(2^12). This will, however give us an E# that is seven octaves higher than the F, which it is being compared to, and we need them at the same octave. An octave's frequency ratio is 2:1. To go down an octave, we must use the reciprocal of this, which is 1:2. Therefore, to go down an octave we must multiply our original amount by (1^7)/(2^7). (1^7) is the equal to one, therefore, we must simply use 1/(2^7) as our coefficient to (3^12)/(2^12).

Now lets work out the math.

E# : F = ([3^12]/[2^12])(1/[2^7]) : 1
E# : F = ([3^12]/[2^19]) : 1
E# : F = (531441/524288) :1
E# : F = 1.01364 : 1


There you go proof that E# and F sound different. Im sure if you want proof that they not only sound different, but also function differently, Im sure Archeo could explain that too you as he is more knowledgable than me in that aspect.
#36
^^ You didn't happen to attend some sick music school, did you?
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#37
Quote by sTx
^^ You didn't happen to attend some sick music school, did you?

hah really eh? i honestly could not even follow that math as i kind of avoided the maths and took the social sciences and history (as math is a useless subject for boring people ) anyways perhaps u are tryingt o say that E# is a fraction of a note higher up than F that was my impression of what u were trying to get at least as i am not a boring person..... on a guitar the difference in the note and thus scale would be to small for almost any guitarist to notice or be able to play seperatly.. there the same friggen fret for god sakes that would be like saying the G major scale and E minor scale are completely different scales regardless of were u create the resolution.

A rose by any other name is just as sweet

ps kill the math geeks!
#38
^ Lol, seriously. That looked like something off a Wiki article.
You simply MUST check out my music on
Reverbnation Downloads available here
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Especially for fans of Tool, APC, Avant-Garde, Ambient music, rock instrumentals, and fans of music in general. Will not disappoint.
#40
Quote by axemanchris
What about something like this....just playing the devil's advocate....

Key of C# = seven sharps. The piece begins modulating gradually one key at a time. In order to facilitate this movement, accidentals are brought in. For a few bars, the F's become double-sharped, making the piece feel like it is in the key of G#. More accidentals are added, and you are now in the key of D#, then A#. The key signature has not yet changed, but you are now adding more accidentals to facilitate this key change. You now go from double-sharped F's, C's, G's, and now add double-sharps on D's using accidentals.

The key signature still shows seven sharps, but with accidentals within the bars, you now have four double-sharps. You are using notes in the key of E# major. What you hear is strongly suggestive of the E# being the new tonic. On paper, all of the harmonic movement suggests that E# is indeed the new tonic chord.

What key would you be in at that point?

*knowing smile*

CT
Any composer skilled enough to compose a piece that modulates up by fifths from C# is smart enough to change the key signature before the notation gets completely unreadable. That point, in this case, would occur during the modulation to Ab (G#'s enharmonic).
All things are difficult before they are easy.
- Dr. Thomas Fuller (British physician, 1654-1734)
Quote by Freepower
For everything you need to know - gpb0216.
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