#1

What's the difference between say a G7 and a Gmaj7?

Thanks

Thanks

#2

G7 is a dominant chord. It has a root, third, fifth, and a flat seventh.

Gmaj7 is a major 7th chord. It has root, third, fifth, and seventh.

Gmaj7 is a major 7th chord. It has root, third, fifth, and seventh.

#3

so Gmaj is 1 3 5 7

G7 is 1 3 5 b7

Gm7 is 1 b3 5 7

and are there any other types of seventh chords?

G7 is 1 3 5 b7

Gm7 is 1 b3 5 7

and are there any other types of seventh chords?

#4

Lot's of chords can be made that have sevenths in them. There are probably dozens. I'm not too good with chords, so I'm the wrong guy to ask here. I'm sure Arch or bangoodcharlotte will be here eventually.

#5

so Gmaj is 1 3 5 7

G7 is 1 3 5 b7

Gm7 is 1 b3 5 7

and are there any other types of seventh chords?

Gm7: 1-b3-5-b7

Some others...

m7b5: 1-b3-b5-b7

mmaj7: 1-b3-5-7

alt: 1-3-(b5 or #5)-b7-(b9 or #9)

dim7: 1-b3-b5-bb7

In addition, just about any chord with an extension

*beyond*a seventh (G9, G11 etc) has an implied b7 (unless the 7th is explicitly notated as major)

#6

Gm7: 1-b3-5-b7

Some others...

m7b5: 1-b3-b5-b7

mmaj7: 1-b3-5-7

alt: 1-3-(b5 or #5)-b7-(b9 or #9)

dim7: 1-b3-b5-bb7

In addition, just about any chord with an extensionbeyonda seventh (G9, G11 etc) has an implied b7 (unless the 7th is explicitly notated as major)

maj7+ = 1, 3, #5, 7

min7 = 1, b3, 5, b7

#7

ahh thanks for clearing that up guys.

#8

Who the fubangoodcharlotte

*ck is that?*

Here is a list of every type of seventh chord I can think of. X is where the root note would be (so that first one could be Fmaj7, Gmaj7, etc:

Xmaj7 1 3 5 7

X7 1 3 5 b7

Xm7 1 b3 5 b7

Xm/maj7 (said "minor major seven): 1 b3 5 7

Xmaj7#5: 1 3 #5 7

X7#5: 1 3 #5 b7

X7#4: 1 3 #4 5 b7

Xmaj7#4: 1 3 #4 5 7

Xm7b5: 1-b3-b5-b7

Xdim7: 1-b3-b5-bb7

X7#9: 1 3 5 b7 #9

X7b9: 1 3 5 b7 b9

Xmaj7#9: 1 3 5 7 #9

A note on extensions: Any of these chords can have additional 9th, 11th, and 13th added, except those that already have #4s and #9, in which case, you would likely not want to add an additional 11s or 9s. For instance, X9 is 1 3 (5) b7 9, X11 is 1 3 (5) b7 (9), and X 13 is 1 3 (5) b7 (9) (11) 13. The notes in parenthesis can be omitted at your discretion. Additionally, you can add them to other chords, such as Xmaj9, 1 3 5 7 9.

Feel free to ask any questions.

#9

A note on extensions: Any of these chords can have additional 9th, 11th, and 13th added, except those that already have #4s and #9, in which case, you would likely not want to add an additional 11s or 9s. For instance, X9 is 1 3 (5) b7 9, X11 is 1 3 (5) b7 (9), and X 13 is 1 3 (5) b7 (9) (11) 13. The notes in parenthesis can be omitted at your discretion. Additionally, you can add them to other chords, such as Xmaj9, 1 3 5 7 9.

Feel free to ask any questions.

Ahh, that clears up a lot. I've always wondered how you notate whether the 7th was natural/flat when there is a 9th/11th/13th thrown in. Thanks for clearing that up.

And as for the Xdim7 (1 b3 b5 bb7):

Could that be thought of as XdimAdd13? Because bb7 is enharmonic with a natural 6th, which is the same as a 13th. So would it work out that way, or is there some convention regarding diminished chords that would prevent it from being written that way?

I was wondering about this earlier while thinking about how the major scale's I6 chord contains the same notes (albeit in a different inversion) as the vim7, which led to me thinking about that same relationship from the fifth degree chord, but in the other direction. Take the key of C major for instance. Using this method, you could, in theory, take a Gdom7 chord, change the root to a B, and the notes would be B D F G, which would make for a chord that is enharmonic to a Bdim7 (fully diminished), even though the notes would dictate that it were a BdimAdd13, or something to that effect.

Any clarifications for this?

#10

And as for the Xdim7 (1 b3 b5 bb7):

Could that be thought of as XdimAdd13? Because bb7 is enharmonic with a natural 6th

No. The note does not function as the sixth, it functions as a double flatted seventh.

#11

No. The note does not function as the sixth, it functions as a double flatted seventh.

So then when would you use the Xdim7 chord? Would it just be used when altering the normal, vii half-diminished seventh chord, or is it something that pops out of the harmonic or melodic minor scales (which I don't know as of yet) ?

#12

So then when would you use the Xdim7 chord? Would it just be used when altering the normal, vii half-diminished seventh chord, or is it something that pops out of the harmonic or melodic minor scales (which I don't know as of yet) ?

It's not really a diatonic chord. You can technically use it under locrian natural 6, since the notes are enharmonic, but you'll generally see it with the diminished scale.

#13

It's not really a diatonic chord. You can technically use it under locrian natural 6, since the notes are enharmonic, but you'll generally see it with the diminished scale.

Mmkay, then I'll put it off learning that until I consider myself a master of the major scale, melodic minor, harmonic minor, and all of their respective modes.

Goodbye, fully-diminished seventh chords, see ya in 10 years.

#14

Haha, you don't have to put it off that long. Yes, the other stuff you named is important, but diminished chords aren't too hard. For instance, you could play F#dim7 G. While the F#dim7 contains notes that are not in the G major scale (Eb), the resolution is nice.Goodbye, fully-diminished seventh chords, see ya in 10 years.

#15

Haha, you don't have to put it off that long. Yes, the other stuff you named is important, but diminished chords aren't too hard. For instance, you could play F#dim7 G. While the F#dim7 contains notes that are not in the G major scale (Eb), the resolution is nice.

This is a good point. Since the only real purpose of a dominant chord in a diatonic progression is to resolve to the tonic, anything you can do to increase the dissonance, and therefore the resolution, is fair game, even if it involves adding "extra-scalular" notes. Personally, I despise dominant 7th chords. I hate the sound of them. I will never, ever use one without altering it in some way.

#16

Haha, you don't have to put it off that long. Yes, the other stuff you named is important, but diminished chords aren't too hard. For instance, you could play F#dim7 G. While the F#dim7 contains notes that are not in the G major scale (Eb), the resolution is nice.

Hmm, messing around in guitar pro leads me to believe that you are most definitely correct.

That F#dim7 sounds *dissonant* by itself, but it does resolve quite nicely to the G major.

Better?

*Last edited by seedmole at Feb 8, 2008,*

#17

"Horrendous" is such a strong word. Musicians prefer to use dissonant.

#18

Hmm, messing around in guitar pro leads me to believe that you are most definitely correct.

That F#dim7 sounds *dissonant* by itself, but it does resolve quite nicely to the G major.

Better?

yeah it works the same way in minor keys too; F#dim7 can be derived from G harmonic minor so F#dim7 - Gm makes for a nice resolution as well.

you can also use them to make chromatic progressions in major keys and get a nice sense of forward motion between chords

For instance in C major you could play

C - C#dim7 - Dm7 - D#dim7 - Em7 - Fmaj7 - F#dim7 - G7 and so on

#19

damn i wish i had the knowledge of theory that you guys have. TEACH ME!!!

#20

^Click the "learn your theory" link in my sig. Read the MT FAQ as well.

Stash Jam, that progression is odd but kind of cool at the same time.

What he's doing is using a diminished chord 1/2 step below the next chord to create a sense of motion. C#dim pulls towards Dm, F#dim pulls towards G7. G7 actually pulls towards C, but that's due to the diminished interval contained in the dominant chord. That's actually something you should know as well. G7 can be called G dominant seven. The interval between the third and seventh (B and F) is a tritone, in this case, a diminished fifth.

Stash Jam, that progression is odd but kind of cool at the same time.

What he's doing is using a diminished chord 1/2 step below the next chord to create a sense of motion. C#dim pulls towards Dm, F#dim pulls towards G7. G7 actually pulls towards C, but that's due to the diminished interval contained in the dominant chord. That's actually something you should know as well. G7 can be called G dominant seven. The interval between the third and seventh (B and F) is a tritone, in this case, a diminished fifth.

#21

^Click the "learn your theory" link in my sig. Read the MT FAQ as well.

Stash Jam, that progression is odd but kind of cool at the same time.

yeah and of course you can always just use parts of that more sparingly in regular major progressions, like a ii V I you could throw a dim7 between the I and ii making the ii sound like a tonic briefly before moving back into the V-I cadence like...

Em7 - A7 - Dmaj7 - D#dim7 - Em7.

#22

The diminished seventh chord, is created by stacked minor thirds. C dim7 (C, Eb, Gb, Bbb) Eb dim7 (Eb, Gb, Bbb, Dbb) Gb dim7 (Gb, Bbb, Dbb, Fbb) and A dim7 (A, C, Eb, Gb) all are inversions of eachother. Technically speaking they are not the same, as with just intonation tuning (which is more correct than the equal temperament tuning commonly used on guitars) A and Bbb are slightly different. But for your purposes this difference is negligible.

Also, on an even more technical aspect, we do play proper diminished seventh chords when using equal temparament. This is due to their function, which is to create disonance. Equal temparament can be expressed as the function f(x) = a(2)^(x/12). f represents the frequency of the second note, a represents the original note's frequency, while x represents the amount of semitones (yes crazy people can use negative numbers, fractions, complex numbers, irrational numbers, and even imaginary numbers[which of course would be impractical]). Now if we substitute 3 6 and 9 as x, we will get three numbers, which relate to eachother exponentially(when x = 3 divided by when x = 0 will be the same as when x = 6 divided by when x = 3 etc..) and form our diminished seventh chord. This will give a very dissonant sound as the root and fifth form a tritone (square root of 2: 1 frequency ratio), and the third and seventh also form a tritone. To add to this, the two tritones relate to eachother in such a way that each tritone is half the distance between the two notes of the other tritone (so the fourth root of two). All the distances between the four notes of the chord, with any other chord tone, will be related by an irrational number, causing none of the sound waves to interact smoothly with eachother. This is very disonant.

Diminished seventh chords can be used as passing chords, as vii chords with harmonic minor, and with the diminished scale.

Also, on an even more technical aspect, we do play proper diminished seventh chords when using equal temparament. This is due to their function, which is to create disonance. Equal temparament can be expressed as the function f(x) = a(2)^(x/12). f represents the frequency of the second note, a represents the original note's frequency, while x represents the amount of semitones (yes crazy people can use negative numbers, fractions, complex numbers, irrational numbers, and even imaginary numbers[which of course would be impractical]). Now if we substitute 3 6 and 9 as x, we will get three numbers, which relate to eachother exponentially(when x = 3 divided by when x = 0 will be the same as when x = 6 divided by when x = 3 etc..) and form our diminished seventh chord. This will give a very dissonant sound as the root and fifth form a tritone (square root of 2: 1 frequency ratio), and the third and seventh also form a tritone. To add to this, the two tritones relate to eachother in such a way that each tritone is half the distance between the two notes of the other tritone (so the fourth root of two). All the distances between the four notes of the chord, with any other chord tone, will be related by an irrational number, causing none of the sound waves to interact smoothly with eachother. This is very disonant.

Diminished seventh chords can be used as passing chords, as vii chords with harmonic minor, and with the diminished scale.

#23

Isaac, you're only 14 and you've already managed to learn all this shit and/or managed to figure it out by yourself. Keep it up and we will probably hear about you composing insane pieces in about 10 years.

And to relate to the thread: This thread has seriously taught me a ton. I love this forum.

And to relate to the thread: This thread has seriously taught me a ton. I love this forum.

#24

Off topic, but someday I would like to hear the music that bangoodcharlote and archeo avis can make with such extensive knowledge of music theory...

#25

Honestly, my stuff is pretty simply. Lots of distortion and power chords.

Okay, my compositions are somewhat more complex than that, but I really am just a hard rock guitar player.

Okay, my compositions are somewhat more complex than that, but I really am just a hard rock guitar player.

#26

Off topic, but someday I would like to hear the music that bangoodcharlote and archeo avis can make with such extensive knowledge of music theory...

I have a MIDI file (I plan all of my songs out on powertab before recording them) of piece I've been working on called

*Train of Thought*. It's not complete yet, and it starts somewhere in the middle of the song, but it gives you a sense of what it sounds like.

http://download.yousendit.com/F9B51F4E13500D39

#27

hey bangoodcharlote and archeo, did you guys take music theory classes or did you learn all of this on your own? I ask because I am thinking about taking a music theory class this summer at the college nearby. I know a bit of theory but I don't understand how to apply it to my playing. So do you guys have any tips for me when it comes to learning theory such as passing chords and what resolves to what? I already read the link in ban's sig and read the MT FAQ as well but i already knew all of that so I don't know where to go.

EDIT:Also how well can you guys sight read?

EDIT:Also how well can you guys sight read?

*Last edited by jpgilbert701 at Feb 9, 2008,*

#28

did you compose the piano too archeo?

do you play the piano?

do you play the piano?

#29

One fu

Anyway, I took private lessons for a while. I've also learned a great deal on here.

I've never taken a college music class, but I would imagine that you'll learn a lot.

And I can't sight read.

*cking T!!!!!*Anyway, I took private lessons for a while. I've also learned a great deal on here.

I've never taken a college music class, but I would imagine that you'll learn a lot.

And I can't sight read.

#30

Yeah, The diminished 7th chord is only found only in the harmonic minor (root on

the 7th degree).

In harmonic analysis, the vii7 is nearly equivalent to the function of a V7. Where

the V7 pulls strongly towards the chord a 5th down, the vii7 pulls to the chord 1/2

step up.

the 7th degree).

In harmonic analysis, the vii7 is nearly equivalent to the function of a V7. Where

the V7 pulls strongly towards the chord a 5th down, the vii7 pulls to the chord 1/2

step up.

#31

did you compose the piano too archeo?

do you play the piano?

I composed it, but I don't really play the piano that well. I basically just worked out a progression in my head and punched it into the program.

#32

Equal temparament can be expressed as the function f(x) = a(2)^(x/12). f represents the frequency of the second note, a represents the original note's frequency, while x represents the amount of semitones (yes crazy people can use negative numbers, fractions, complex numbers, irrational numbers, and even imaginary numbers[which of course would be impractical]).

Not wanting to get too off topic but just a question about your formula as your use of brackets looks weird to me.

Do you mean f*x at the start? ( * = multiplication) Just f(x) usually denotes a function of x...

and the second bit do you mean (2a)^(x/12) or a*2^(x/12)? Your knowlage of musical maths far out weighs mine but I just wanted to check, I find this kind of thing interesting, where did you learn it?

#33

Not wanting to get too off topic but just a question about your formula as your use of brackets looks weird to me.

Do you mean f*x at the start? ( * = multiplication) Just f(x) usually denotes a function of x...

and the second bit do you mean (2a)^(x/12) or a*2^(x/12)? Your knowlage of musical maths far out weighs mine but I just wanted to check, I find this kind of thing interesting, where did you learn it?

I am fairly certain he did mean "function of x" with f(x).

And good ol' PEMDAS can tell you that what he wrote should be interpreted as

a * (2^[x/12])

Edit: wait, I see what you were confused about. He probably should have written it like this:

f = a(2^[x/12])

or, to clarify

f' = f(2^[x/12])

where f' (pronounced "F Prime") is equal to the frequency of the second pitch, f is equal to the original pitch, and x is the difference in frets between them. Also, there should probably be a sign convention with this equation so as to prevent improper use of negatives for the value of x.

*Last edited by seedmole at Feb 9, 2008,*

#34

^What? Are you trying to take a derivative of f(x)? Unless I've completely screwed this up, which is incredible likely, I got f'(x)=a(2^(x/12))(ln(2))+2^(x/12).

Ignore music for a second. Let's just make sure I remember calculus.

I used the product rule, so it's a times the derivative of 2^(x/12), plus 2^(x/12) time the derivative of a, which is 1. Have I screwed up somewhere?

Ignore music for a second. Let's just make sure I remember calculus.

I used the product rule, so it's a times the derivative of 2^(x/12), plus 2^(x/12) time the derivative of a, which is 1. Have I screwed up somewhere?

#35

^What? Are you trying to take a derivative of f(x)? Unless I've completely screwed this up, which is incredible likely, I got f'(x)=a(2^(x/12))(ln(2))+2^(x/12).

Ignore music for a second. Let's just make sure I remember calculus.

I used the product rule, so it's a times the derivative of 2^(x/12), plus 2^(x/12) time the derivative of a, which is 1. Have I screwed up somewhere?

Hmmm. I have not yet taken calculus (I will learn that next year), so I have no idea about derivatives. The formula I have stated works for me, and I understand it, and it does not use these derivatives, or anything in calculus (as far as I know).

I am fairly certain he did mean "function of x" with f(x).

And good ol' PEMDAS can tell you that what he wrote should be interpreted as

a * (2^[x/12])

Edit: wait, I see what you were confused about. He probably should have written it like this:

f = a(2^[x/12])

or, to clarify

f' = f(2^[x/12])

where f' (pronounced "F Prime") is equal to the frequency of the second pitch, f is equal to the original pitch, and x is the difference in frets between them. Also, there should probably be a sign convention with this equation so as to prevent improper use of negatives for the value of x.

Yes I think you are understanding me. I am only halfway through my grade11 functions course, so notational things are foreign to me. The formula of f(x)=a(2)^(x/12) is a formula I came up with, just by figuring things out. The expression 2^(x/12) should be evaluated first, and then be multiplied by a. Your idea of F Prime sounds more correct, but I am unfamiliar with this concept.

Not wanting to get too off topic but just a question about your formula as your use of brackets looks weird to me.

Do you mean f*x at the start? ( * = multiplication) Just f(x) usually denotes a function of x...

and the second bit do you mean (2a)^(x/12) or a*2^(x/12)? Your knowlage of musical maths far out weighs mine but I just wanted to check, I find this kind of thing interesting, where did you learn it?

It is referring to a functions of x, as it would be possible (and useful) to graph. As stated above the a is a coefficient of 2^(x/12)

#36

A derivative is a measure of instantaneous rate of change. In order for the derivative to relevant, the change must have some meaning, which I can't see with f(x) = a(2)^(x/12), so derivative seems rather useless to me.Hmmm. I have not yet taken calculus (I will learn that next year), so I have no idea about derivatives. The formula I have stated works for me, and I understand it, and it does not use these derivatives, or anything in calculus (as far as I know).

Someone please confirm my calculation!!!

And if you don't understand any of this, don't worry. Calc and physics are hard when you learn them from an actual teacher, let alone from some dude on the internet at 12 at night.

#37

^What? Are you trying to take a derivative of f(x)? Unless I've completely screwed this up, which is incredible likely, I got f'(x)=a(2^(x/12))(ln(2))+2^(x/12).

Ignore music for a second. Let's just make sure I remember calculus.

I used the product rule, so it's a times the derivative of 2^(x/12), plus 2^(x/12) time the derivative of a, which is 1. Have I screwed up somewhere?

Oh nononoo, I wouldn't mess with any calculus. Even though I never actually took that type of math, I did kinda learn it for physics last year. But nah, I'm just using nice, simple functions. The f is just a normal variable for frequency, not that wacky limit sign. I wish I could comment on whether or not that derivative you got is correct, but I really do not remember how calculus goes.

And the f' and f notation is just something I learned from physics when you're calculating something similar to this fashion. I guess it could also be called fo (pronounced f naught) and f, where fo would be the original frequency and f is the other one.

#38

Go with F naught. F prime definately refers to a derivative.

Does anyone know if it did it right, though?

Does anyone know if it did it right, though?

#39

Go with F naught. F prime definately refers to a derivative.

Does anyone know if it did it right, though?

My mistake.

I could probably break out my old physics notebooks and try to find where we did some derivatives to check if what you wrote was correct, but I'm sure some random nerd (other than myself) could answer you.

#40

Ignore music for a second. Let's just make sure I remember calculus.

I used the product rule, so it's a times the derivative of 2^(x/12), plus 2^(x/12) time the derivative of a, which is 1. Have I screwed up somewhere?

Are you after dy/dx of the f(x) function here since your after the change?

If f(x) = a*2^(x/12) then

f'(x) = (2x/24)^((x/12)-1)

Because a^1 goes to a^0 which = 1 so we can take it out of the equation.

Then 2^(x/12) goes to (2x/24)^((x/12)-1) I think. Ive only just covered some basic calculus stuff but im almost 100% thats how to find dy/dx.

EDIT: What i was getting confused over is the fact that you've said f(x) is the function fo x and f is the frequency as well...? Perhaps im reading it wrong but that doesnt seem right to me.

*Last edited by Peanut1614 at Feb 10, 2008,*