#1
what is morality? how do we judge what is moral and what is not. something that may be moral to one might not be moral to the other. How do you judge whether something is moral. Just fight over morality and back it up.
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#4
most morals are relative but there is at least one that can be universally applied: treat others as you would want to be treated
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#5
religion... That is the answer.
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#6
there is no thread answering this question directly. I looked.
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#8
Quote by SpelChek
morals are relative.

Damn! You beat me to it.

but seriously there are commonly held morals that 99.9% of people have, and then there are specific morals.

Example:

If someone breaks into your house and steals your stuff you don't think, "Facinating, that rebelious fellow posses the genetic predisposition to believe that there is nothing wrong with the theft of ones property."

no

You think, "Bitch stole my stuff and I want to kill him."

On the other hand you most likely have no problem with masterbation or looking at porn while there are millions of people who would burn you at the stake for such sins.
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#10
Quote by mitch311
**** off

Offended by that? Most all morals come from religious beliefs.
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#11
Quote by i have to pee
Offended by that? Most all morals come from religious beliefs.
Haha nah I actually have no idea why im in this thread
#12
Quote by i have to pee
Offended by that? Most all morals come from religious beliefs.


QFT.

Most all morals? All morals are subjective to the relativity of religion. (or relative to the subjective nature of religion :O)

Wtv, the closest thing to philosophy the pit has ever encountered is how the penz0r got in a [insert object here]

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#13
Quote by SmellyGonorrhea
most morals are relative but there is at least one that can be universally applied: treat others as you would want to be treated


Explain to me why the existence of crime is universal?

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#14
Ok, well here is my take on morality and religion, because they are close knit they need to be talked about together. From what I've seen I believe that all morals are from some sort of religion. Without religion we would be an anarchy. There would be complete and udder chaos. Proof? Well just think how many people are kept in line with the threat of Hell. I am not religious, but I believe religion is very important to our society today. Although it does get out of hand with fundamentalists. So I'm pretty much saying for a society to work there must be both religious and people who don't believe in religion. Proof? Europe during the Dark Ages. Morality is relative to whatever specific religion seems to be majority in an area. Like in America the covering of women seems absurd to many people, but I'm sure they feel the same way due to thier religious beliefs.
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#15
Quote by Incardito
Explain to me why the existence of crime is universal?


Crime is universal because as moral people are universal so are immoral people.
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#16
Actually, you got it backwards. Most religions were a product of commonly accepted moral beliefs. It was an effort by ancient civilizations to become just that...civilizations. A place where groups of people could come together with the goal of survival through cooperation and respect for each other. Then, like every other organization that man has created, it went down hill fast once it was realized that "organized religion" could be twisted and warped into an entity that gave power, control, and wealth. So much for a good idea.
#17
Common sense.
/thread.
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#18
Quote by shakes23
Common sense.
/thread.

Depends where you common from.


Eh? eh?


#19
Quote by tayroar
Crime is universal because as moral people are universal so are immoral people.


Then wouldn't it not be a universal morality?

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#20
Quote by fob12
Depends where you common from.


Eh? eh?





Why did I find that so funny.
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#21
Quote by hercules1
Actually, you got it backwards. Most religions were a product of commonly accepted moral beliefs. It was an effort by ancient civilizations to become just that...civilizations. A place where groups of people could come together with the goal of survival through cooperation and respect for each other. Then, like every other organization that man has created, it went down hill fast once it was realized that "organized religion" could be twisted and warped into an entity that gave power, control, and wealth. So much for a good idea.


I personally agree with the son of Zeus here.
Gore AND Core; unite!
#22
Quote by hercules1
Actually, you got it backwards. Most religions were a product of commonly accepted moral beliefs. It was an effort by ancient civilizations to become just that...civilizations. A place where groups of people could come together with the goal of survival through cooperation and respect for each other. Then, like every other organization that man has created, it went down hill fast once it was realized that "organized religion" could be twisted and warped into an entity that gave power, control, and wealth. So much for a good idea.


Meh since I'm in UG might as well talk in prose.

This is a kind of paradox we're in. Selfishness /= morality. Murder is essentially immoral? why? Because we're fearful.

It's fear that prevents us from doing something "immoral". The main fear of the world is, going or more precisely "burning" in hellfire for eternity. Laws were based on faith. To be aberrant automatically meant you would be subjected to hellfire.

Everything in your argument is purely biased. No proof whatsoever.

So much for a good idea.

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#23
Quote by i have to pee
Offended by that? Most all morals come from religious beliefs.

And where did religious beliefs come from?
Common world morality, along with a healthy does of ancient tribal prejudice.
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#24
Quote by Incardito
Explain to me why the existence of crime is universal?



because people are imperfect. crime can more accurately be described as a "deviation from the norm." there are no two humans that are perfectly alike. therefore, what one person thinks is normal, is not normal for another person. what could be a crime for one person, is not a crime for another person.

and also, socrates nailed it on the head. justice (crime and laws) was an invention by man so that we could live together in peace.

look at it this way: in a perfect world, we'd be able to do whatever we wanted. however, if we are to live with others it's impossible for everyone to do everything that they wanted; some people might hurt others. therefore, laws (and therefore crimes) are defined so that you get to do at least some of what you want and you're free from having to worry about being hurt.
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#25
morality is relative. different societies think different things are not acceptable. just like they have changed over time. can you image paris hilton 100 years ago? She would have been lynched for being the spawn of satan, then we would have to repent our sins for letting the spawn of satan walk the earth.
#26
Quote by Altered_Carbon
And where did religious beliefs come from?
Common world morality, along with a healthy does of ancient tribal prejudice.


Morality came from a pre-programmed emotion called fear.

I never knew religion came from anywhere? I never knew that "god's" plans were so predictable to us inferior humans?

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#27
Quote by fretsonfire74
morality is relative. different societies think different things are not acceptable. just like they have changed over time. can you image paris hilton 100 years ago? She would have been lynched for being the spawn of satan, then we would have to repent our sins for letting the spawn of satan walk the earth.

They are basically all the same, except in our times today, we've let go of a lot. Sometimes I think we let go too much.
#28
Quote by fretsonfire74
morality is relative. different societies think different things are not acceptable. just like they have changed over time. can you image paris hilton 100 years ago? She would have been lynched for being the spawn of satan, then we would have to repent our sins for letting the spawn of satan walk the earth.


Lol you just basically proved my argument for that context :P

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#29
Quote by SmellyGonorrhea
because people are imperfect. crime can more accurately be described as a "deviation from the norm." there are no two humans that are perfectly alike. therefore, what one person thinks is normal, is not normal for another person. what could be a crime for one person, is not a crime for another person.

and also, socrates nailed it on the head. justice (crime and laws) was an invention by man so that we could live together in peace.

look at it this way: in a perfect world, we'd be able to do whatever we wanted. however, if we are to live with others it's impossible for everyone to do everything that they wanted; some people might hurt others. therefore, laws (and therefore crimes) are defined so that you get to do at least some of what you want and you're free from having to worry about being hurt.


From your logic, a perfect world is where no-one "deviates from the conformity"? If no one deviated from the norm, then there would not be any norm wouldn't there be?

Freedom? Normality? No one's free from the chains of conformity son. No one's free period.

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#30
Quote by Incardito
From your logic, a perfect world is where no-one "deviates from the conformity"? If no one deviated from the norm, then there would not be any norm wouldn't there be?

Freedom? Normality? No one's free from the chains of conformity son. No one's free period.


Yes, a perfect world is where no one deviates from the norm. It means everyone would be exactly the same; same EVERYTHING, same ideas and same motives and all working in harmony. But in the real world, that is physically impossible.

Here is society and justice summed up:


"They say that to do wrong is naturally good (it's pleasurable), to be wronged is bad (it's painful), but the suffering of injry so far exceeds in badness the good of inflicting it that when men have done wrong to each other and suffered it, and have had a taste of both, those who are unable to avoid the latter and practice the former decide that it is profitable to come to an agreement with each other neither to inflict injury nor suffer it. As a result they begin to make laws and covenants, and the law's command they call lawful and just. THIS IS THE ORIGIN AND ESSENCE OF JUSTICE: IT STANDS BETWEEN THE BEST AND THE WORST, THE BEST BEING TO DO WRONG WITHOUT PAYING THE PENALTY AND THE WORSE TO BE WRONGED WITHOUT POWER OF REVENGE." socrates was a straight up g.
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Last edited by SmellyGonorrhea at Feb 11, 2008,
#31
Quote by SmellyGonorrhea
Yes, a perfect world is where no one deviates from the norm. It means everyone would be exactly the same; same EVERYTHING, same ideas and same motives and all working in harmony. But in the real world, that is physically impossible.

Here is society and justice summed up:


"They say that to do wrong is naturally good (it's pleasurable), to be wronged is bad (it's painful), but the suffering of injry so far exceeds in badness the good of inflicting it that when men have done wrong to each other and suffered it, and have had a taste of both, those who are unable to avoid the latter and practice the former decide that it is profitable to come to an agreement with each other neither to inflict injury nor suffer it. As a result they begin to make laws and covenants, and the law's command they call lawful and just. THIS IS THE ORIGIN AND ESSENCE OF JUSTICE: IT STANDS BETWEEN THE BEST AND THE WORST, THE BEST BEING TO DO WRONG WITHOUT PAYING THE PENALTY AND THE WORSE TO BE WRONGED WITHOUT POWER OF REVENGE." socrates was a straight up g.


I see no pwnage here? This is entirely out of context, this isn't an argument of Good and Evil. For god sakes I could give you an argument about existentialism and call it pwnage. Clarify?

edit: But what makes it wrong or right ^_^, I don't get it... the origin of morality is justice? >_>
<_<

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Last edited by Incardito at Feb 11, 2008,
#32
and also.. you're totally free to do whatever you like. you are, after all, human and you're capable of thinking and moving on your own. if you really want to live without any consequences, the only option for you is to leave any type of society and avoid human contact. it is impossible to exist with another human being if you choose to do anything and everything you want. in the state of nature, you can trust no one: kill or be killed.

as rational and reasonable human beings, we've realized that a life like that would suck. so we make societies that have laws so that we can protect ourselves and our property.

if you want to live with people, you have to have your freedom limited. it's just common sense.
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#33
Quote by Incardito
I see no pwnage here? This is entirely out of context, this isn't an argument of Good and Evil. For god sakes I could give you an argument about existentialism and call it pwnage. Clarify?

edit: But what makes it wrong or right ^_^, I don't get it... the origin of morality is justice? >_>
<_<


definitions of deviance vary over time and space and are dependent upon the societal context in which one lives.

an action is defined as "wrong" when it challenges or threatens the society's systems of control or ownership.

WHO defines what is "wrong"? the most powerful actors of a society.
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#34
Quote by SmellyGonorrhea
and also.. you're totally free to do whatever you like. you are, after all, human and you're capable of thinking and moving on your own. if you really want to live without any consequences, the only option for you is to leave any type of society and avoid human contact. it is impossible to exist with another human being if you choose to do anything and everything you want. in the state of nature, you can trust no one: kill or be killed.

as rational and reasonable human beings, we've realized that a life like that would suck. so we make societies that have laws so that we can protect ourselves and our property.

if you want to live with people, you have to have your freedom limited. it's just common sense.


First of all, what is thinking on my own? I hardly think that being influenced at ALL (by infancy or by the nearest piece of gum) is freedom. We think individualism is being different, but it's all the same. My actions are already predetermined by all my previous influences.

Secondly, we can't even escape consequences even if we hide in a burrow, we can't escape humanity. We have to eat sometimes, and due to laws now and days , you can't get 1 foot in the other direction without trespassing (immoral) or conversing with other humans (freedom).

Thirdly, it's impossible to live WITHOUT humans. Human nature proves to be sometimes contradictory. We need a self of belonging, so are you implying that you can't live with other people without being immoral?

Rationalization is purely relative and so is common sense.
Common sense = normality. Being drawn to normality by a hidden force is not freedom.

kthxbye

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#35
No proof? Look at anything that led to the creation of ancient civilizations from the Summerians condensing into Mesopotamia to the tribes that eventually group together in Egypt. When groups of people come together there becomes a need to express the importance of "we're all in it together." The "fear" you mention is correct in so much as it was a tool utilized AFTER the creation of organized religion or ancient governments that were one and the same as their religions...hence, Hammurabi's Code in Mesopotamia, and Egypt with the Pharos being gods. When you get such large groups of people together that you can title them "civilizations," then you quickly lose the ability to maintain order. This is where religion proved very usefull. Fear was introduced on a large scale, including the fear of fire and brimstone, or whatever the ancients used. Fear used before this point was between warring tribes when the fear was geneside or slavery apon defeat. Organized religion introduced real fear...death plus an afterlife with eternal pain. Yes, fear is a powerful motivator, but, the "morals" came first, the religion followed. Then, "fear" was used to keep the sheep in the fences.


I got to get bed, it's 2 a.m. and I got to work tomorrow. See ya.
Last edited by hercules1 at Feb 11, 2008,
#36
Quote by SmellyGonorrhea
definitions of deviance vary over time and space and are dependent upon the societal context in which one lives.

an action is defined as "wrong" when it challenges or threatens the society's systems of control or ownership.

WHO defines what is "wrong"? the most powerful actors of a society.


We're going in circles here. The point of my argument that religion was the origin or morality. ^_^.

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#37
Quote by Incardito
First of all, what is thinking on my own? I hardly think that being influenced at ALL (by infancy or by the nearest piece of gum) is freedom. We think individualism is being different, but it's all the same. My actions are already predetermined by all my previous influences.

Secondly, we can't even escape consequences even if we hide in a burrow, we can't escape humanity. We have to eat sometimes, and due to laws now and days , you can't get 1 foot in the other direction without trespassing (immoral) or conversing with other humans (freedom).

Thirdly, it's impossible to live WITHOUT humans. Human nature proves to be sometimes contradictory. We need a self of belonging, so are you implying that you can't live with other people without being immoral?

Rationalization is purely relative and so is common sense.
Common sense = normality. Being drawn to normality by a hidden force is not freedom.

kthxbye


i dont even know where you're going with that.

of course we're not free. i've been saying that this whole time. haven't you read anything i posted? our freedoms are limited so that we can avoid pain.

see: post with socrates quote
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#38
Quote by Incardito
We're going in circles here. The point of my argument that religion was the origin or morality. ^_^.


morals came first. then came religion.

religion is codified morals.
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#39
"and also.. you're totally free to do whatever you like. you are, after all, human and you're capable of thinking and moving on your own."

"of course we're not free. i've been saying that this whole time. haven't you read anything i posted? our freedoms are limited so that we can avoid pain."

What the **** >.<

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#40
Apart from anything else, isn't a world where noone deviates from the norm very boring? There would be no science as we know it today, no art and no music.