#1
Can someone explain the characteristics of math metal bands, such as protest the hero, or psyopus, and even some of the techniques used by necrophagist in symbiotic in theory.
Can someone explain the theoretical techniques they use? like how they go about jumping from scale to scale or key or whatever.
#2
wtf is math metal? Metal you listen to when your pissed off while your doing algebra homework?
Quote by I'm_Guitarded
yea, but perhaps this was meant to be...
there could be a handful of stoners somewhere in Jersey that are on the verge of creating a new metal...a new thrash metal...

...or were all screwed =]

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#3
Quote by ClickClick
wtf is math metal? Metal you listen to when your pissed off while your doing algebra homework?

Basically really complicated metal. Characterized by awkward time signatures and key changes. I believe?
#4
Quote by ClickClick
wtf is math metal? Metal you listen to when your pissed off while your doing algebra homework?


Nope. Your wrong.

Some of us enjoy math, and those of us that also enjoy making music, will probably want to incorporate math into it. Math metal bands are known to make the most complex music they can possibly make.
#5
dude math core or math metal is basically use of very fast highly technical scales and progressions and so on and so forth like Protest the Hero (allready mentioned i knoiw) and The Fall of Troy and so on
#6
Quote by dieamberdie
dude math core or math metal is basically use of very fast highly technical scales and progressions and so on and so forth like Protest the Hero (allready mentioned i knoiw) and The Fall of Troy and so on


Yeah.. I'm aware of that, but can anyone give any examples of the theory behind some of it?
I've got some knowldedge of it, but i've yet to find anyone at all who can tell me the same and give me examples of the theory, so it's frustrating. hah.
#7
Quote by ClickClick
wtf is math metal? Metal you listen to when your pissed off while your doing algebra homework?

And lol at your reply
#8
Change of keys, exotic scales, odd meters are all part of it.

Strange studio effects are used sometimes, though I can't claim I'm familiar enough with the genre to cite examples.
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#9
Quote by HammerAndSickle
Change of keys, exotic scales, odd meters are all part of it.

Strange studio effects are used sometimes, though I can't claim I'm familiar enough with the genre to cite examples.


Ahh crazy meters. Not only do they have weird time signatures, but they will sometimes have different band members playing in different time signatures, which will eventually meet up after a certain amount of bars (different amounts for each member). They will use ALOT of time changes, as well as extensive use of tuplets. Many of their music is atonal. Sometimes they will use irrational time signatures (things like 9/7... where the septuplet gets the beat). Of course irrational time signatures are counterintuitive, unless they are used in conjunction with other time signatures (containing different denominators). Otherwise they are just confusing notation.
#10
Quote by isaac_bandits
they will sometimes have different band members playing in different time signatures, which will eventually meet up after a certain amount of bars (different amounts for each member).


I've tried this. Never could make it sound good. lol.
#11
Quote by Macabre_Turtle
I've tried this. Never could make it sound good. lol.


Dont worry. This is ridiculously challenging. If you want an example listen to "New Millennium Cyanide Christ" by Meshuggah, where the bass, guitars, and bass drum play in 23, while the drummer's hands are playing in 4.
#12
A lot of math sounds like complete **** (read: The Dillinger Escape Plan). It takes real talent to get it to sound like music. If they can pull it off, they have my utmost respect.

Meshuggah! \m/
#13
Quote by dieamberdie
dude math core or math metal is basically use of very fast highly technical scales and progressions and so on and so forth like Protest the Hero (allready mentioned i knoiw) and The Fall of Troy and so on


while we're (not really) on topic what's core music? you know, like what's different between metal and metalcore? when does a genre reach the stage when they have to stick a core in it's name?
#14
Quote by isaac_bandits
Dont worry. This is ridiculously challenging. If you want an example listen to "New Millennium Cyanide Christ" by Meshuggah, where the bass, guitars, and bass drum play in 23, while the drummer's hands are playing in 4.



Good God, I love that main riff. It makes absolutely no sense, but it works perfectly.
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#15
Quote by isaac_bandits
Dont worry. This is ridiculously challenging. If you want an example listen to "New Millennium Cyanide Christ" by Meshuggah, where the bass, guitars, and bass drum play in 23, while the drummer's hands are playing in 4.


I don't know alot about drums, but that must have been murder for the drummer. lol. Do you know any songs where the pitched instruments play different signatures?
#16
Quote by Macabre_Turtle
I don't know alot about drums, but that must have been murder for the drummer. lol. Do you know any songs where the pitched instruments play different signatures?


I saw an interview with Bono and he said that in the song "Bullet the Blue Sky" the bassist is playing in a different key than the Edge.

Edit: It says it here on the Wiki-Bullet the Blue Sky

The Edge is playing in Db and Adam is playing in Eb minor.
Last edited by GITARdud391 at Feb 13, 2008,
#17
Quote by dieamberdie
dude math core or math metal is basically use of very fast highly technical scales and progressions and so on and so forth like Protest the Hero (allready mentioned i knoiw) and The Fall of Troy and so on


Bad example. TFoT isn't a mathcore/rock/metal (I've heard it called all of those) band at all really. Pretty much a 'post-hardcore' band, an excellent one I may add, but not a mathcore band.
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#18
Quote by Eirien
while we're (not really) on topic what's core music? you know, like what's different between metal and metalcore? when does a genre reach the stage when they have to stick a core in it's name?



Core is basically another term for "A band with a lot of breakdowns." obviously, metal can have break downs, but they are usually seen as being less chuggy. metalcore is basically metal, like slayer, metallica, dream theater, (the list goes on and on) only the riffs are chuggy and there are lots of breakdowns, like as seen in As i lay dying, haste the day, august burns red, etc.
#19
Are Lamb Of God thought of as core? They're pretty chuggy and do have a lot of breakdowns.
#20
Quote by Eirien
Are Lamb Of God thought of as core? They're pretty chuggy and do have a lot of breakdowns.


i haven't listened to much lamb of god, to be honest. im more into melodic metal bands
#21
Quote by linfield44
Core is basically another term for "A band with a lot of breakdowns." obviously, metal can have break downs, but they are usually seen as being less chuggy. metalcore is basically metal, like slayer, metallica, dream theater, (the list goes on and on) only the riffs are chuggy and there are lots of breakdowns, like as seen in As i lay dying, haste the day, august burns red, etc.


No, the "Core" comes from Hardcore, as in Hardcore Punk.
Metalcore bands are bands that have metal influences mixed in with Hardcore influences. Core does not mean Breakdowns, unfortunately, the trend today is breakdowns, but that doesn't mean a break down fines the core sound.
And you can't spell funeral
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hope you had a good time
cuz now your life is done
#22
Quote by GITARdud391
I saw an interview with Bono and he said that in the song "Bullet the Blue Sky" the bassist is playing in a different key than the Edge.

Edit: It says it here on the Wiki-Bullet the Blue Sky

The Edge is playing in Db and Adam is playing in Eb minor.


That's cool, but I meant, time signature. Not key. lol.
#23
Quote by tomohawkjoe
No, the "Core" comes from Hardcore, as in Hardcore Punk.
Metalcore bands are bands that have metal influences mixed in with Hardcore influences. Core does not mean Breakdowns, unfortunately, the trend today is breakdowns, but that doesn't mean a break down fines the core sound.


What about thrash? A lot of thrash (especially the oldest stuff) is kind of like a middle ground between punk and metal.
#24
Quote by tomohawkjoe
No, the "Core" comes from Hardcore, as in Hardcore Punk.
Metalcore bands are bands that have metal influences mixed in with Hardcore influences. Core does not mean Breakdowns, unfortunately, the trend today is breakdowns, but that doesn't mean a break down fines the core sound.


Ridiculous. So you're saying that Grindcore bands are influences of Hardcore Punk bands? I don't think so. And Deathcore and Mathcore are hardcore influences??
#26
Quote by Macabre_Turtle
I really don't think all "core" bands are linked together by influences...



i'm going to agree with you, hardcore punk and metalcore are completely different
#27
Quote by linfield44
Ridiculous. So you're saying that Grindcore bands are influences of Hardcore Punk bands? I don't think so. And Deathcore and Mathcore are hardcore influences??

Originally (keyword here) metalcore was infact hardcore punk with metal influences(or vice versa). Now a days, the term core has become very jaded and many deathcore and Mathcore bands are labeled as such because of breakdowns. PS, its not are, its have.
To Imply that Deathcore are Hardcore Influences is incorrect. That would imply that deathcore influenced hardcore. To imply that Deathcore has hardcore influences is correct (When I say deathcore, I don't mean Death Metal with Breakdowns, I mean Death Metal with hardcore influences).

EDIT: I didn't say how much of an influence each one had on the other. Some may have had minimal influence. People set stuff like this
when it should be this
And you can't spell funeral
without fun
hope you had a good time
cuz now your life is done
Last edited by tomohawkjoe at Feb 13, 2008,
#28
Quote by tomohawkjoe
Originally (keyword here) metalcore was infact hardcore punk with metal influences(or vice versa). Now a days, the term core has become very jaded and many deathcore and Mathcore bands are labeled as such because of breakdowns. PS, its not are, its have.
To Imply that Deathcore are Hardcore Influences is incorrect. That would imply that deathcore influenced hardcore. To imply that Deathcore has hardcore influences is correct (When I say deathcore, I don't mean Death Metal with Breakdowns, I mean Death Metal with hardcore influences).

EDIT: I didn't say how much of an influence each one had on the other. Some may have had minimal influence. People set stuff like this
when it should be this



ok, i'll agree with you here. I thought that you were implying the fact that hardcore bands influenced breakdowns and such, but your post seems to make sense.
#29
Quote by Avedas
A lot of math sounds like complete **** (read: The Dillinger Escape Plan). It takes real talent to get it to sound like music. If they can pull it off, they have my utmost respect.

Meshuggah! \m/

I love The Dillinger Escape Plan. They're far and away my favourite mathcore band. On that note, most (if not all) mathcore bands ARE extremely dissonant. Sounding "like music", whatever the hell that means, isn't part of the job description.
Also, Meshuggah isn't mathcore; there's more to mathcore than complex time signatures. See below.

The -core extension refers to genres hybridized with hardcore punk. Early metalcore has obvious roots in hardcore. Ditto grindcore.
Mathcore refers to music that is characterised by extremely dissonant riffing (often exploiting altered jazz, diminished and whole tone scales) over complex and often rapidly-altering time signatures; this is combined with elements of hardcore, most notably in the vocal department. Mathcore is also heavily rooted in jazz and many elements of jazz are "borrowed" by bands of the genre.
The most characteristic example I can think of mathcore (also one that won't destroy your ears - mathcore is generally not written with the intent of sounding melodic) is the Dillinger Escape Plan's album "Miss Machine". Keep in mind that this is relatively LIGHT mathcore when taken in context (see Setting fire to Sleeping Giants and Unretrofied); it is also one of my top three favourite albums.
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Last edited by Me2NiK at Feb 13, 2008,
#30
Quote by Me2NiK
I love The Dillinger Escape Plan. They're far and away my favourite mathcore band. On that note, most (if not all) mathcore bands ARE extremely dissonant. Sounding "like music", whatever the hell that means, isn't part of the job description.
Also, Meshuggah isn't mathcore; there's more to mathcore than complex time signatures. See below.

The -core extension refers to genres hybridized with hardcore punk. Early metalcore has obvious roots in hardcore. Ditto grindcore.
Mathcore refers to music that is characterised by extremely dissonant riffing (often exploiting altered jazz, diminished and whole tone scales) over complex and often rapidly-altering time signatures; this is combined with elements of hardcore, most notably in the vocal department. Mathcore is also heavily rooted in jazz and many elements of jazz are "borrowed" by bands of the genre.
The most characteristic example I can think of mathcore (also one that won't destroy your ears - mathcore is generally not written with the intent of sounding melodic) is the Dillinger Escape Plan's album "Miss Machine". Keep in mind that this is relatively LIGHT mathcore when taken in context (see Setting fire to Sleeping Giants and Unretrofied); it is also one of my top three favourite albums.


OK. But this thread is labeled "Technical Math Metal/ Progressive Metal Bands".... It is asking for Technical Metal, and Math Metal, not Mathcore. Messhuggah is technical metal, and therefore they fit in here.

Quote by linfield44
Ridiculous. So you're saying that Grindcore bands are influences of Hardcore Punk bands? I don't think so. And Deathcore and Mathcore are hardcore influences??


Well they have metalcore influences, and metalcore has hardcore influences, so hardcore punk can be considered an indirect influence on them.
#32
Quote by Connah
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goodluck!!

Canada ftw
And you can't spell funeral
without fun
hope you had a good time
cuz now your life is done
#33
The lyrics from my new Math DEATH Math metal album ot os called INCORRECT!


if you don't your math homework
you will surely die!
I will pull out my calculator
and stab you in the eye!
if the formula is incorrect
cause 2 +5 = 10!

INCORRECT! (DETAH METAL VOCALS!)

... I actually know what math core is so.... don't be fooled.
#34
Quote by Techtonic

if you don't your math homework
you will surely die!
I will pull out my calculator
and stab you in the eye!
if the formula is incorrect
cause 2 +5 = 10!

INCORRECT! (DETAH METAL VOCALS!)


My god, I just sang it.....
#36
Quote by Macabre_Turtle
My god, I just sang it.....


me too.....I have a couple of different melodies going on......

/.....the chourus is just me screaming "incorrect", over and over
#37
personally, i just call meshuggah math metal
Quote by beadhangingOne
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#38
Just to add my two cents, i'm a huge HUGE HUGE meshuggah nerd, and i'd like to point out that they use a LOT of microtonality - using really small bends to grab pitches between semitones, eg, solo in stengah, lots of riffs..., and a lot of complex chords. There is also a strong tend towards minimalism.
#39
Quote by linfield44
Core is basically another term for "A band with a lot of breakdowns." obviously, metal can have break downs, but they are usually seen as being less chuggy. metalcore is basically metal, like slayer, metallica, dream theater, (the list goes on and on) only the riffs are chuggy and there are lots of breakdowns, like as seen in As i lay dying, haste the day, august burns red, etc.


Dude, every form of music has breakdowns. A breakdown is another term for a climax.

Metalcore is a lightly used term to label metal bands with hardcore and punk influence. It obviously branches out to more and more sub genres, but thats what it is.
#40
Quote by isaac_bandits
Dont worry. This is ridiculously challenging. If you want an example listen to "New Millennium Cyanide Christ" by Meshuggah, where the bass, guitars, and bass drum play in 23, while the drummer's hands are playing in 4.


I think I read that on their wiki
I think its 23/16 for guitar, bass, and kicks
while the drummer's hands are in 4/4
but on the last bar I think the guitar, bass, and kicks end in 13/16
which adds up to 128 16th notes, which is equal to 8 bars of 4/4
its not a polyrhythm, its called something else, synocpt-something.

EDIT:
Quote by from wikipedia

For example, the main riff of the song "New Millennium Cyanide Christ," from their 1998 album Chaosphere, follows the aforementioned blueprint. Haake beats a rather slow 4/4 rhythm with his hands, while the bass drums and guitars play a repetitive 23/16 rhythm pattern on top of it. As the subdivided pattern is repeated, the pattern's accents shift to different beats on each repetition. After repeating the 23/16 pattern five times, a shorter 13/16 pattern is played once. These patterns sum up to 128 16th notes which equals exactly 8 measures in 4/4 meter. This, however, makes it a syncope, not a polyrhythm.

syncope
And you can't spell funeral
without fun
hope you had a good time
cuz now your life is done
Last edited by tomohawkjoe at Feb 15, 2008,