#1
The major pentatonic scale, right?

Am i right in saying that the first position of the Major Pent. Scale is the same as the second position of the Minor Pent. Scale? Is this because thats where the note that denotes the scale is?

Lemme explain,

Say your playing A minor in the first position, the second position starts on a C, the relative Major, right? Is that the right formula for all of them?

I understand many of you dislike boxes and positions etc, but id really just like an answer rather than being told not to learn boxes etc.


Thanks, I hope i was clear enough,


db
#2
Yes ur right, If i got ur explanation right, hehe..

Its juz like the seven modes (Lets use the key of G for example) :

1. Ionian - 1st position (Starts on G)
2. Dorian - 2nd position (Starts on A)
3. Phrygian - 3rd position (Starts on B)
4. Mixolydian - 4th position (Starts on D)
5. Aeolian - 5th position (Starts on E)

Now, using all these scales combined throughout ur fretboard, u may solo all over it in the key of G...
"Well, yeah, sometimes I get a little too creative."
~Bruce Dickinson~



-------------------------
"Various equipments"
#3
i think I understand you, and yes I think you are correct. I do see that both the major and minor pentatonics use the same patterns or boxes, so playing a maj pent and changing to min pent is just using a different box on the same root note. Sorry for my post not making much sense musically but I'm still learning too

Edit: not getting into modes as I can already see from the post beneath me that modes seem to be more complex than just playing minor pentatonic in different positions
Last edited by Irontallica09 at Feb 14, 2008,
#4
Quote by kennethdave
Yes ur right, If i got ur explanation right, hehe..

Its juz like the seven modes (Lets use the key of G for example) :

1. Ionian - 1st position (Starts on G)
2. Dorian - 2nd position (Starts on A)
3. Phrygian - 3rd position (Starts on B)
4. Mixolydian - 4th position (Starts on D)
5. Aeolian - 5th position (Starts on E)

Now, using all these scales combined throughout ur fretboard, u may solo all over it in the key of G...



this is WRONG

these modes/scales only share a consistancy of having the same notes therefor no matter what "pisition" you are in you are playing all of these.

these scales are very different and imply very different things. these modes/scales are in direct relationship to what chords and or key you are playing.

they are not the same opnce again i will remind you

for examplke you cannot play D dorian while playing C major

D dorian has a flattened 3rd and a flattened 6th they are not the same scale althought they harmonically identical

because of it's intervals it implies very specific chords
song stuck in my head today


#5
this is WRONG


Yes, and guitarists reverse the terms tremolo and vibrato a lot. In the sense that you're playing the modes it is wrong, however the modal names are quite commonly used to refer to the box shapes. In that sense he used them correctly, but probably should said "Ionian box" and "Dorian box".
#6
Quote by darthbuttchin


Say your playing A minor in the first position, the second position starts on a C, the relative Major, right? Is that the right formula for all of them?

I understand many of you dislike boxes and positions etc, but id really just like an answer rather than being told not to learn boxes etc.


Thanks, I hope i was clear enough,


db


Well it doesnt really start on C..... it starts on A just as all the A minor pentatonic scale patterns would. it is however the same pattern as the C Major pentatonic. I would recommend that you learn them as 2 separate scales. For instance I would learn the 5 minor pentatonic patterns..... AND the 5 Major pentatonic patterns. Its good that you recognize that they are the same patterns.... but you also should know they have different tonics, and are in fact different scales. Its important to learn it that way so you can properly apply each scale. This is the same for the Major and minor scales.


Here you can compare the 2. ( same patterns but.....2 different scales )



A minor pentatonic: Pattern 2

red = tonic / starting note
--------------------------------------------------8--10---
-----------------------------------------8--10------------
-------------------------------7----9----------------------
---------------------7---10------------------------------
-------------7--10---------------------------------------
-----8--10------------------------------------------------

C Major pentatonic: Pattern 1

blue = tonic / starting note
--------------------------------------------------8--10---
-----------------------------------------8--10------------
-------------------------------7----9----------------------
---------------------7---10------------------------------
-------------7--10---------------------------------------
-----8--10------------------------------------------------


As far is disliking boxes and positions. I've only seen one person say not to learn them.... its just that the same person posts alot, and speaks very authoritatively on the subject. In actuality, most other guitarists would probably disagree. I wouldnt avoid learning them because of what 1 person says in a forum..... that person doesnt speak for all guitarists.... all musicians.... or even UG, just for them-self. take it for what its worth.

My personal advice is that learning them or anything on the guitar is always a positive thing.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Feb 13, 2008,
#7
As far is disliking boxes and positions. I've only seen one person say not to learn them.... its just that the same person posts alot, and speaks very authoritatively on the subject. In actuality, most other guitarists would probably disagree. I wouldnt avoid learning them because of what 1 person says in a forum..... that person doesnt speak for all guitarists.... all musicians.... or even UG, just for them-self. take it for what its worth.

My personal advice is that learning them or anything on the guitar is always a positive thing.


Archeo, right??

I don't think that he is saying that box patterns aren't useful, it's just that some people learn the pentatonic scale and stay in one position on the fretboard, and they can't even recognize the names of the notes in it or why it is what it is. What he means is that learning the notes is far more useful in the long run and that notes allow you to play anywhere you want. Box patterns are for more restrictive then learning notes and scales.
#8
Quote by darthbuttchin
The major pentatonic scale, right?

Am i right in saying that the first position of the Major Pent. Scale is the same as the second position of the Minor Pent. Scale? Is this because thats where the note that denotes the scale is?

Lemme explain,

Say your playing A minor in the first position, the second position starts on a C, the relative Major, right? Is that the right formula for all of them?

I understand many of you dislike boxes and positions etc, but id really just like an answer rather than being told not to learn boxes etc.


Thanks, I hope i was clear enough,


db


The notes in Aminpent, and Cmajpent are the same. They function differently and have a different tonality, but they are relative scales.
#9
Quote by linfield44

I don't think that he is saying that box patterns aren't useful, it's just that some people learn the pentatonic scale and stay in one position on the fretboard, and they can't even recognize the names of the notes in it or why it is what it is. What he means is that learning the notes is far more useful in the long run and that notes allow you to play anywhere you want. Box patterns are for more restrictive then learning notes and scales.



well im not saying names.... but the fact that people actually think you shouldnt learn them, based on what they read here, shows that the tactic isnt very helpful. It serves more to make that person look smart than it does to help a beginning guitarist progress.

If someone learns one pattern on the fretboard.... thats fine. If they get good at it they will hit a point where they want to learn more. When that happens they wont be any worse off because they know that pattern. If anything the pattern serves as a good reference point. To tell people that are curios about patterns that they shouldn't learn them.... is inappropriate/ bad advice, and the evidence shows in this thread.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Feb 13, 2008,
#10
Quote by linfield44
Archeo, right??
Could it be anyone else?

Quote by linfield44
I don't think that he is saying that box patterns aren't useful, it's just that some people learn the pentatonic scale and stay in one position on the fretboard, and they can't even recognize the names of the notes in it or why it is what it is. What he means is that learning the notes is far more useful in the long run and that notes allow you to play anywhere you want. Box patterns are for more restrictive then learning notes and scales.
Box patterns are incredibly useful to know, but blindly following them with no knowledge of what you're doing is simply idiotic.
#11
Quote by GuitarMunky
well im not saying names.... but the fact that people actually think you shouldnt learn them, based on what they read here, shows that the tactic isnt very helpful. It serves more to make that person look smart than it does to help a beginning guitarist progress.

If someone learns one pattern on the fretboard.... thats fine. If they get good at it they will hit a point where they want to learn more. When that happens they wont be any worse off because they know that pattern.

dont learn the box patterns.... is bad advice.



did i say not to learn box patterns?
#12
Quote by linfield44
did i say not to learn box patterns?


nope... someone else did.... Im not complaining about you..... just the fact that someone else says it often enough that it gets listened to. I find that to be troubling. and I feel bad for the people that would take that advice and miss out on learning something that would actually benefit them.

Quote by bangoodcharlote


Box patterns are incredibly useful to know, but blindly following them with no knowledge of what you're doing is simply idiotic.


I dont totally agree with this. using the patterns... and your ear to make music is not idiotic at all. Playing by ear is a very positive thing.

People do all sorts of things on the guitar.... good and bad... Just because there are some people that just learn the patterns and dont get past that...... that doesnt mean learning the patterns are bad in any way. You take it as far as you want. You might make great music with the patterns and your ears..... you might suck..... You might learn all the notes and the theory and sound like crap as well. The bottom line is.... ANYTHING you can learn that helps you enjoy playing..... is a good thing.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Feb 13, 2008,
#13
Quote by GuitarMunky
nope... someone else did.... Im not complaining about you..... just the fact that someone else says it often enough that it gets listened to. I find that to be troubling. and I feel bad for the people that would take that advice and miss out on learning something that would actually benefit them.


I dont totally agree with this. using the patterns... and your ear to make music is not idiotic at all. Playing by ear is a very positive thing.

People do all sorts of things on the guitar.... good and bad... Just because there are some people that just learn the patterns and dont get past that...... that doesnt mean learning the patterns are bad in any way. You take it as far as you want. You might make great music with the patterns and your ears..... you might suck..... You might learn all the notes and the theory and sound like crap as well. The bottom line is.... ANYTHING you can learn that helps you enjoy playing..... is a good thing.


You make a good point here.
#14
GuitarMunky: Fair enough, but so many people come on here thinking that A Aeolian is at the 5th fret, B Phrygian at the 7th, C Ionian at the 8th, D Dorian at the 10th, etc, that blindly following the box patterns seems foolish to me.
#15
Quote by bangoodcharlote
GuitarMunky: Fair enough, but so many people come on here thinking that A Aeolian is at the 5th fret, B Phrygian at the 7th, C Ionian at the 8th, D Dorian at the 10th, etc, that blindly following the box patterns seems foolish to me.


yeah, I understand that. Lets face it there is alot to understand about the guitar / music / theory. People are going to make all sorts of mistakes, and the one you mention is very common. Its hard to teach someone that isnt even remotely ready for it, how to understand scale construction and modes / patterns.

Probably the best advice to them would be to tell them to start from scratch and learn 1 step at a time. Everyone wants to jump in to modes because it sounds impressive..... I think thats why alot of people dont get it.... there not ready for it.

Anyway correcting them makes sense.... telling them not to learn box shapes and patterns isnt very helpful IMO.... if anything it serves to confuse.... I guess im saying it doesnt solve the problem.
shred is gaudy music
#16
we never said don't learn box shapes. we are saying there is no specific box for a mode/scale

every mode mentioned that i rebuted to shares all of those shapes. IT IS WRONG TO SAY THAT THIS BOX IS THE DORIAN MODE AND THIS BOX IS PHRYGIAN.

every scale/mode stated are harmonically identcal

in other words they all share a consisatancy of having the same notes. therefore no matter what box shape or position you are playing the same thing.

1. Ionian - 1st position (Starts on G)
2. Dorian - 2nd position (Starts on A)
3. Phrygian - 3rd position (Starts on B)
4. Mixolydian - 4th position (Starts on D)
5. Aeolian - 5th position (Starts on E)

^ this is what has already been stated in the thread

these modes do not nessecarilly start on the ROOT NOTE on the E string therefore you cannot state that this is the dorian mode.

modes are not confined to one box shape and the next is another mode they are all different but once again share the same notes

do you now understand that saying one box is one mode and another box is another mode is wrong

do you know the differences between the scales/modes

do you know how to use them?

do you understand that every scale is across the whole fret board?

did you know most musicians use box shapes as a map to know where the notes are when they are playing a certain scale/mode. they can't be looking at there guitar all the time

here is a quote from richard lloyd

" an a6ttentive advanced guitarist will recognize that he or she needs to use multiple maps to understand the fret board. just as you have 2 eye's to recognize depth and you need a crosshair to aim any kind of a weapon, the advancing guitarist see's the positional boxes as well as the diagonal and verticle patterns that move throught them".

these boxes are just patterns for scales they are not scales. the scale you play is completley relavent to the chords you play.

you will find many scales have the same pattern it is up to you to know how to use then

thinking you are playing a dorian with a g maj progression is ignorance

thinking different positions are different modes is ignorance
song stuck in my head today


#17
Quote by lbc_sublime
we never said don't learn box shapes. we are saying there is no specific box for a mode/scale

every mode mentioned that i rebuted to shares all of those shapes. IT IS WRONG TO SAY THAT THIS BOX IS THE DORIAN MODE AND THIS BOX IS PHRYGIAN.

every scale/mode stated are harmonically identcal

in other words they all share a consisatancy of having the same notes. therefore no matter what box shape or position you are playing the same thing.

1. Ionian - 1st position (Starts on G)
2. Dorian - 2nd position (Starts on A)
3. Phrygian - 3rd position (Starts on B)
4. Mixolydian - 4th position (Starts on D)
5. Aeolian - 5th position (Starts on E)

^ this is what has already been stated in the thread

these modes do not nessecarilly start on the ROOT NOTE on the E string therefore you cannot state that this is the dorian mode.

modes are not confined to one box shape and the next is another mode they are all different but once again share the same notes

do you now understand that saying one box is one mode and another box is another mode is wrong

do you know the differences between the scales/modes

do you know how to use them?

do you understand that every scale is across the whole fret board?

did you know most musicians use box shapes as a map to know where the notes are when they are playing a certain scale/mode. they can't be looking at there guitar all the time

here is a quote from richard lloyd

" an a6ttentive advanced guitarist will recognize that he or she needs to use multiple maps to understand the fret board. just as you have 2 eye's to recognize depth and you need a crosshair to aim any kind of a weapon, the advancing guitarist see's the positional boxes as well as the diagonal and verticle patterns that move throught them".

these boxes are just patterns for scales they are not scales. the scale you play is completley relavent to the chords you play.

you will find many scales have the same pattern it is up to you to know how to use then

thinking you are playing a dorian with a g maj progression is ignorance

thinking different positions are different modes is ignorance


yeah, thanks to you I now understand

but seriously yeah I understand all of what you said, and I wasnt even talking about you or your answer in this thread. I avoided remarking on the 2nd post probably for the same reasons that felt the need to point out how wrong it was. what I did post was this, which is not inconsistent with what your saying.


BTW I like that quote

" an a6ttentive advanced guitarist will recognize that he or she needs to use multiple maps to understand the fret board. just as you have 2 eye's to recognize depth and you need a crosshair to aim any kind of a weapon, the advancing guitarist see's the positional boxes as well as the diagonal and verticle patterns that move throught them".

That is absolutely true. Just keep in mind that a beginning guitarist that is just learning about scales or scale patterns wont have the understanding that an "attentive advanced guitarist" will have. Giving them the entire theoretically rundown, just might be a bit over their head.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Feb 13, 2008,
#18
Quote by GuitarMunky


I avoided remarking on the 2nd post probably for the same reasons that felt the need to point out how wrong it was.



no go ahead if i am screwed up and it doesn't take to much time of yours correct me i do not mind i don't want to be giving misinformation
song stuck in my head today


#19
Quote by lbc_sublime
no go ahead if i am screwed up and it doesn't take to much time of yours correct me i do not mind i don't want to be giving misinformation


I dont disagree with what you posted. My answer was this
shred is gaudy music
#20
here's my last thing from a different perspective. for the TS. talking about the patterns.

i don't know if this will be over your head or not but here we go. i am a little bad at explaining so here we go

i am going to be using the major and minor scale formula(7notes).


whole being a whole tone half being a half tone

the major bieng:

whole whole half whole whole whole half

minor formula

whole half whole whole half whole whole

looking at then from i guess an abstract point of view these patterns are very similair.

WWHWWWH maj
WHWWHWW minor

really look at them

if you were to start on the third of the minor and continue into te next octave you would notice they parralell

WWHWWWH maj
WWHWWWH minor starting on the third continueing into the next octave of the scale

the relationship between these formula's and how similiar they are achieves the pattern that you are speaking of.

the pentatonics are based off these scale so if you understand that at all you can see y the patterns are the same
song stuck in my head today


#21
Quote by GuitarMunky
I dont disagree with what you posted. My answer was this


and i do not disagree with your posting either i was more pissed off at this

captian crim

Yes, and guitarists reverse the terms tremolo and vibrato a lot. In the sense that you're playing the modes it is wrong, however the modal names are quite commonly used to refer to the box shapes. In that sense he used them correctly, but probably should said "Ionian box" and "Dorian box".

this does not make sence to me

and was trying to expalin that these names don't make sence based on what i had said. maybe to some people but not me

nothing thrown towards you.

i find your posting helpful. personally
song stuck in my head today


#22
Thanks guys, i think i understand it now.

I wasnt avoiding learning Box shapes, its just ive seen people post before and dicount the box idea and i didnt want that i just wanted an answer to my question.

Thanks

db