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#1
does he really play the same speed as Kirk and James in songs like Fight Fire With Fire?

Maybe I am deaf, but I can just not tell if he is up to par all the time

please try to stay on topic,
for I know that when Cliff is mentioned people all of a sudden start things like...

"He is overrated"

"New Metallica sucks"

or

"CLIFF BURTON, OH MY GOD HE IS AMAZING"


thanks!
#2
I'm going to sound ignorant but I find it very difficult to distinguish the bass in that song. I guess he is following the guitar at the same speed, as he did on 'The Four Horsemen'.
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#3
ah, that song is not the same speed though


the intro to FFWF is so fast, and to finger pick that is really good!

I know many bassists that can finer pick that fast, but I am so confused to name Cliff as one of them, for I can not tell, haha
#4
Quote by IRONxPANTERA
ah, that song is not the same speed though


the intro to FFWF is so fast, and to finger pick that is really good!

I know many bassists that can finer pick that fast, but I am so confused to name Cliff as one of them, for I can not tell, haha

Yeah, I didn't mean to say that they were both the same speed, I was just saying that he was following the guitars in the verse. And I think Cliff is known for his finger speed- I mean listen to 'Hit the Lights'. Sorry if I'm sounding like I'm talking to an uneducated 'Tallica fan btw, I'm sure you're not
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#6
I'm pretty sure he does, I know he can hit 200+bpm doing 16ths, so I wouldn't doubt it at all.
#7
Quote by LeperMessiah_
I'm pretty sure he does, I know he can hit 200+bpm doing 16ths, so I wouldn't doubt it at all.

200+ bpm 16ths? So, you mean he plays twice as fast as Jaco does during the bebop section of Slang? When did he ever play that fast?

Hit the Lights is quick, but it's not THAT quick. It's doable, it just sounds impressive because it's with fingers.

And about the bassline in question, the bass (surprise surprise) disappears as soon as the guitars start playing. That said, you do get to hear the bass before the guitars start to kick in, and if I can make out the bass, it sounds like he's playing that same "outlining" note the whole time.
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#8
Quote by thefitz
200+ bpm 16ths? So, you mean he plays twice as fast as Jaco does during the bebop section of Slang? When did he ever play that fast?

Hit the Lights is quick, but it's not THAT quick. It's doable, it just sounds impressive because it's with fingers.

And about the bassline in question, the bass (surprise surprise) disappears as soon as the guitars start playing. That said, you do get to hear the bass before the guitars start to kick in, and if I can make out the bass, it sounds like he's playing that same "outlining" note the whole time.


I agree that his playing isn't impossibly fast, but you cant deny he had technical speed. Hell, I can barely do like 125BPM sixteenths with my fingers
#10
yeah, he does do it. It's hard, not impossible. Stuff on Master of Puppets comes to mind.
#11
Quote by LeperMessiah_
yeah, he does do it. It's hard, not impossible. Stuff on Master of Puppets comes to mind.

Are you sure? Have you heard Slang? The part where Jaco goes nuts with his bebop solo is half the speed you're talking about. What stuff on Master of Puppets was twice that speed (for any prolonged period of time)?
Quote by Cody_Grey102
I was looking at a used Warwick Vampyre LTD 5'er for about $200. I went home to grab my wallet and came back and some jerk with an epic beard got it already..
#12
Quote by LeperMessiah_
yeah, he does do it. It's hard, not impossible. Stuff on Master of Puppets comes to mind.


no. Your numbers are way off. I'd LOVE to be disproven, but, that's just completely false. Billy Sheehan doesn't play that fast I don't believe.
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#13
Quote by UtBDan
no. Your numbers are way off. I'd LOVE to be disproven, but, that's just completely false. Billy Sheehan doesn't play that fast I don't believe.


Quote by thefitz
200+ bpm 16ths? So, you mean he plays twice as fast as Jaco does during the bebop section of Slang? When did he ever play that fast?


Battery is ~200 bpm and he gallops -- eighth followed by two sixteenths -- very audibly.
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#14
Quote by BadBishop
Battery is ~200 bpm and he gallops -- eighth followed by two sixteenths -- very audibly.

Yeah, but triplets are much, much easier to do at a consistant pace than straight 16th note playing - especially considering that Battery is a riff oriented song, and he probably used three fingers to rake the triplets. If he indeed used three fingers, that 200+ 16th notion is just wrong.
Quote by Cody_Grey102
I was looking at a used Warwick Vampyre LTD 5'er for about $200. I went home to grab my wallet and came back and some jerk with an epic beard got it already..
#15
Well, fastest I've heard Billy Sheehan play is what I can only describe as 16th notes in groups of 3 forced hextuplets at 170bpm.

So that's 3 semiquavers in the amount of time it takes to play a quaver, so that's 24 notes in the bar ( at 4/4). At 170 bpm, there are 42.5 bars in the minute. Multiply that by 24, divide by 60 we have... 17nps. If that was straight sixteenths that would be 16ths at 255 bpm.

That's for the song 7718 (3A17).

EDIT: Have I got that maths right?
EDIT 2: So it isn't out of the question that Cliff is hitting 16ths at 210bpm.
Last edited by Deliriumbassist at Feb 14, 2008,
#16
I'm going to stay away from this techincal business because i'll just put my foot in it. I will point out that Cliff wrote substantial amounts of the music though, (or so i'm led to believe.)

He wrote good music, Anesthesia is a brilliant piece and he was to Metal Bass, what Dimebag was to Metal Guitar.
Currently attempting to learn: The Dissentience by Protest The Hero in it's entirety.
#17



Well I can play on a 6 million bpm tempo, when I'm drunk. I can play in time signatures like 69/42.
So an irishman walks out of a bar.
#18
Quote by Lobsterdeth



Well I can play on a 6 million bpm tempo, when I'm drunk. I can play in time signatures like 69/42.



you sure can get warned, too.
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#19
Quote by Metalcredge
He wrote good music, Anesthesia is a brilliant piece and he was to Metal Bass, what Dimebag was to Metal Guitar.

THAT I agree 100% with. For better or for worse.
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#20
He definatley does a gallop on Battery,w hich is about 210. Using an 8th and two sixteenths, no triplet stuff. Disposable heroes is between 180 and 190, doing 16th note rhythms. Same with Leper Messiah. Straight 16thsw at 190 on Damage inc.

I'm pretty sure for most stuff Cliff does, he uses two fingers, he does use three sometimes, but I'm not totally sure when, and I think generally it's two.
#21
Quote by LeperMessiah_
He definatley does a gallop on Battery,w hich is about 210. Using an 8th and two sixteenths, no triplet stuff. Disposable heroes is between 180 and 190, doing 16th note rhythms. Same with Leper Messiah. Straight 16thsw at 190 on Damage inc.

I'm pretty sure for most stuff Cliff does, he uses two fingers, he does use three sometimes, but I'm not totally sure when, and I think generally it's two.

Yea, I don't think I've seen him use three fingers except maybe once or twice....Import the song into an audio editing program and mix out as much guitar as possible and turn up the bass....Fight Fire With Fire is quite possible for Cliff....
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#22
Quote by LeperMessiah_
He definatley does a gallop on Battery,w hich is about 210. Using an 8th and two sixteenths, no triplet stuff. Disposable heroes is between 180 and 190, doing 16th note rhythms. Same with Leper Messiah. Straight 16thsw at 190 on Damage inc.

Two sixteenths and an eigth is a triplet, to two ways about it. But I saw Rob Trujillo play Disposable Heroes with my own 2 eyes from 5 feet away - fantastic stuff. However, I can't tell many of the bass lines in early 'Tallica stuff because of the questionable tone choice.

However, I'd love them to remaster the catalouge - or at least the early ones. It's been 25 years, hasn't it? Perfect time to do it. Maybe we can ACTUALLY hear Jason.

Food for thought.
Quote by Cody_Grey102
I was looking at a used Warwick Vampyre LTD 5'er for about $200. I went home to grab my wallet and came back and some jerk with an epic beard got it already..
#23
Quite true. In my opinion, the bass for Ride the lightning - ...and Justice gets buried more and more as each album goes on. The bass on Kill 'Em All is pretty easy to hear.

I always considered the triplet 3 notes filling the space of two, not the gallop rhythm I know. It's both?
#24
Quote by LeperMessiah_
Quite true. In my opinion, the bass for Ride the lightning - ...and Justice gets buried more and more as each album goes on. The bass on Kill 'Em All is pretty easy to hear.

I always considered the triplet 3 notes filling the space of two, not the gallop rhythm I know. It's both?

For me, it's hard to make out the bass when both guitars are going. And the subwoofer isn't helping much.

And yeah, gallops are textbook triplets.
Quote by Cody_Grey102
I was looking at a used Warwick Vampyre LTD 5'er for about $200. I went home to grab my wallet and came back and some jerk with an epic beard got it already..
#25
i saw an interview one time where james said cliff could easily play jsut as fast as him.....and james and kirk both can play sickly fast

when Moses brought down the plagues upon Egypt one of them involved Behringer amps


Dont be so humble, your not that great....
#26
I don't know... Cliff is just as fast as some good bassists today who use fingers... Steve DiGiorgio, Billy Sheehan, Juan Alderete, Orion all come to mind. It's also arguable that they much more technical music than Cliff did.
#27
Quote by Charlatan_001
I don't know... Cliff is just as fast as some good bassists today who use fingers... Steve DiGiorgio, Billy Sheehan, Juan Alderete, Orion all come to mind. It's also arguable that they much more technical music than Cliff did.



Correct me, but I think DiGiorgio uses three fingers in a 32123 motion?
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#28
Cliff switched between picks and fingers as the case suited him. I also find his work to be more tasteful.

Ride The Lightning Live With Burton Soloing

Note he was using his index and middle fingers. I don't know how to count nps, so I'll leave it to the masters.
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#29
Quote by RockerPseudonym
Cliff switched between picks and fingers as the case suited him...Note he was using his index and middle finger.


No.

Cliff did not use picks. Ever. Why would you use a pick when you can play that fast with your fingers?

Yeah he used the first two fingers most of the time but Ive seen footage of him using his ring finger too.
#30
Never used picks. Generally he used two fingers, on occasion three, usually for solos or the like.
#31
Let's not get into the whole pick debate, we all know it'll end up getting ugly.
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#32
It's not the same as "picks are bad, never use them". It's a debate of hid technique, and it should be noted when people claim otherwise.

That being said, Cliff was an amazing speed bass player.
#33
i'll agree that cliff was fast and technical. dont agree with him using a pick. about his bass lines being hard to hear. well... he did play a ric, and those are high toned anyways. so it blended alot with the guitars, bands with 2 guitars usually need the blend of the bass because bass runs can almost over flub it. and i almost agree with the bass going down after master. but it did pick back up starting basically on the end of the black album with friend of misery. newsted didnt have too many memorable bass lines until then. but on load he got to shine alot more. outlaw torn is one of my favorite newsted basslines to play.
#34
Quote by RockerPseudonym
Cliff switched between picks and fingers as the case suited him. I also find his work to be more tasteful.

Ride The Lightning Live With Burton Soloing

Note he was using his index and middle fingers. I don't know how to count nps, so I'll leave it to the masters.

You do realize that's For Whom the Bell Tolls right? I assume you mean the album.

He never used picks, he preferred his fingers but I've heard him play very fast in Cliff 'em All....
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#35
Well other than coming into the thread relatively late, I must agree 100% with what the fitz has already said. His main speed comes in his triplets which technically aren't hard to do fast. Admittedly he does show some speed in songs like Battery and Damage Inc. but not nearly the speed that was afformentioned. And as for damienblack's comment, Cliff only used the Ric on Kill 'em All, he then traded for some bass who's name I don't recall for Ride the Lightning. That bass was stolen and he picked up his Aria which he used for the rest of his life.
#36
Quote by thunderbritches
Well other than coming into the thread relatively late, I must agree 100% with what the fitz has already said. His main speed comes in his triplets which technically aren't hard to do fast. Admittedly he does show some speed in songs like Battery and Damage Inc. but not nearly the speed that was afformentioned. And as for damienblack's comment, Cliff only used the Ric on Kill 'em All, he then traded for some bass who's name I don't recall for Ride the Lightning. That bass was stolen and he picked up his Aria which he used for the rest of his life.



i think it was a yamaha bass for ride.
#38
If u watch some of his vid on Cliff EM All U notice he is playing with his index and PINKY finger!!!!
Also the vid above me is really good.
If u watch the black album Dvd, James actualy says is one part that Cliff was getting to fast and he had to build up speed to keep par with him. Though i dont know if that was apllied in the OP song.
SHE walks in beauty, like the night
Of cloudless climes and starry skies;
And all that's best of dark and bright
Meet in her aspect and her eyes:
Thus mellow'd to that tender light
Which heaven to gaudy day denies.
#39
Ah yes, the Alembic... I love thath bass. I looked one up and it was damn expensive to buy... where can I get Cliff's old basses? I know SOMEONE must have them.

I can hope can't I? (No I can't)
#40
I don't know if he was just not mixed loudly, but you can hear the bass louder in the Rock Band video game... in Ride The Lightening, his bass is a lot louder, and his tone is pretty bad. I don't know if it just wasn't a good recording but his tone sounds like he is using really cheap, bad gear.
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