Page 1 of 3
#1
Okay, I've got a chord progression that goes G, Em, Am, C, G. I want a solo over it, and it should sound minor-y, if you know what I mean. What scale and what key should I use?
#4
e minor pentatonic, or any minor modes. depends what you want it to sound like
#8
Quote by lp_breaker
arghhhh pentatonics, dont use that, at least not a lot, weel, you could use B phrygian, A dorian, D myxolydian, or E harmonic minor



i don't think you could. the chords do not resolve to B, A, or D. they resolve to G. i used to make the same mistake and think that since all of those modes contain the same notes, i thought that they were all the same.

please correct me if im wrong, by the way
Last edited by linfield44 at Feb 14, 2008,
#9
Quote by linfield44
i don't think you could. the chords do not resolve to B, A, or D. they resolve to G. i used to make the same mistake and think that since all of those modes contain the same notes, i thought that they were all the same.

please correct me if im wrong, by the way



Your right.

Its not going to sound minor.... because its in G Major.

G Major scale will work for the solo. ( so will G Major Pentatonic or G Major blues )

Modes arent going to work here.... neither is harmonic minor
shred is gaudy music
#10
you can try G lydian
Quote by steven seagull
There are no boring scales, just boring guitarists.

Quote by convictionless
dude calebrocker, that first song on your list almost made me cry
11/10
you win my good sir

^ My For Mom cover

Check out my MP3s!!
#11
Quote by calebrocker
you can try G lydian


Doesn't G Lydian contain a C#? None of his chords in his progression have C# in them, so wouldn't it sound dissonant?

Again, correct me if I'm mistaken.
#13
Quote by The4thHorsemen
^then leave out the C# or use it to add tension.

if you leave the C# out of G Lydian you have G major which has been said and is correct lol.
“Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.”


-Max Planck

☮∞☯♥
#14
the point of using modes is to make it sound different than the regular old major scale. sure, there isn't a c sharp in the progression, but it would give the phrasing a cool unique sound, in my opinion.
Quote by steven seagull
There are no boring scales, just boring guitarists.

Quote by convictionless
dude calebrocker, that first song on your list almost made me cry
11/10
you win my good sir

^ My For Mom cover

Check out my MP3s!!
#15
^Your opinion is wrong. A C# note will likely sound awful over C and Am. It could be used as a passing tone, but let's let this guy crawl before he starts Ironman competitions, okay?

TS, that's in a major key, so it's not going to sound minor-y. However, there are minor chords present, so you can emphasize a sad sound over the minor chords. I suggest using G natural major over that progression. It is the obvious answer. And of course you can do what you want if it sounds good, but that's a given.

Another thing: You CANNOT play B Phrygian over that. Without getting into a huge discussion about modes, which I'm willing to do, but not in this post, you just can't do it without a Bm chord in the backing.

You should use straight G major over this progression. Not B Phrygian. Not A Dorian. Not D Mixolydian. And Not E Harmonic Minor.
#16
Quote by bangoodcharlote
^Your opinion is wrong. A C# note will likely sound awful over C and Am. It could be used as a passing tone, but let's let this guy crawl before he starts Ironman competitions, okay?

TS, that's in a major key, so it's not going to sound minor-y. However, there are minor chords present, so you can emphasize a sad sound over the minor chords. I suggest using G natural major over that progression. It is the obvious answer. And of course you can do what you want if it sounds good, but that's a given.

Another thing: You CANNOT play B Phrygian over that. Without getting into a huge discussion about modes, which I'm willing to do, but not in this post, you just can't do it without a Bm chord in the backing.

You should use straight G major over this progression. Not B Phrygian. Not A Dorian. Not D Mixolydian. And Not E Harmonic Minor.

and i've learned this from the discussions we've had about jazz soloing a while back.

TS, just use G major and if you use a note outside of it and it sounds good, who cares. Theory is a guide and an explanation.
“Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.”


-Max Planck

☮∞☯♥
#18
modes are pretty much useless unless you have to play over key changes.

and even then, it's irrevelant.

guitarists put too much importance on modes.

i never think in modes, ever.

if i have to play over key changes, i think in major keys and major scales.

the modes are just patterns to me, for me to be able to play all the notes in the key, all over the neck.


whenever i see an accomplished well known player, discuss a simple progression like that, they always keep it as simple as possible. jsut use the major scale.

it's the phrasing, and notes you land on for each chord, that are more important, and will make you, or break you.


always think simple.
http://richmusic.dmusic.com

"Those who dream by night, in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible."
#19
Quote by calebrocker
the point of using modes is to make it sound different than the regular old major scale. sure, there isn't a c sharp in the progression, but it would give the phrasing a cool unique sound, in my opinion.


The only thing that will give the phrasing a cool unique sound is the player. Phrasing comes from the player, not the scales.

G Ionian and of course G Major Pentatonic would definitely work. If you want to use G lydian, use the #4 as a passing tone, it may have a sound you like ! Also try and use arpeggios
#20
Quote by rich2k4
modes are pretty much useless unless you have to play over key changes.

and even then, it's irrevelant.

guitarists put too much importance on modes.

i never think in modes, ever.

if i have to play over key changes, i think in major keys and major scales.

the modes are just patterns to me, for me to be able to play all the notes in the key, all over the neck.


whenever i see an accomplished well known player, discuss a simple progression like that, they always keep it as simple as possible. jsut use the major scale.


it's the phrasing, and notes you land on for each chord, that are more important, and will make you, or break you.


always think simple.


the phrasing is important i agree and that is y modes are completely relevent in many ways

i am not geting in a big discussion in here about this

but my last thing is that modes are no less or more of a pattern then any other scale.

they would say use the major scale because not alot of modes are exeptoinally relevant to these chords. theyare all major and minor triads.

there is a place for them just not here
song stuck in my head today


#21
Quote by lbc_sublime
the phrasing is important i agree and that is y modes are completely relevent in many ways

i am not geting in a big discussion in here about this

but my last thing is that modes are no less or more of a pattern then any other scale.

they would say use the major scale because not alot of modes are exeptoinally relevant to these chords. theyare all major and minor triads.

there is a place for them just not here


yep, it's mostly if your playing modally.

it's jsut that a lot of people here at UG have to stop thinking in modes all the time. it makes things more complicated then they really are.

like i said, too much importance is placed on modes, when they don't deserve it.

lot of people here think that mastering the modes is somehow going to be the be all end all quest. that is completely wrong.

it's best to use the modes as a way to see the major scale all over the neck, and it's much easier to think in terms of major scales. which will help you 98% of the time.
http://richmusic.dmusic.com

"Those who dream by night, in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible."
#22
Quote by rich2k4
yep, it's mostly if your playing modally.

it's jsut that a lot of people here at UG have to stop thinking in modes all the time. it makes things more complicated then they really are.

like i said, too much importance is placed on modes, when they don't deserve it.

lot of people here think that mastering the modes is somehow going to be the be all end all quest. that is completely wrong.

it's best to use the modes as a way to see the major scale all over the neck, and it's much easier to think in terms of major scales. which will help you 98% of the time.



i agree with everything but what is in bold.

i think you need to understand the major scale completely before understanding modes. not you personnally but anyone ingeneral.

it is not a way to see the major scale all over the neck the major scale is a way to see the major scale over the neck.

modes are not the major scale and never will be and i think we can agree on that.(exept for ionian lol)
song stuck in my head today


#23
If anyone has any questions, fell free to click the "learn your theory" link in my sig. It will take you to a great lesson about scales and modes and chords and all that good stuff.
#24
The problem with the way that people learn modes, is that they don't see them for that they are: SCALES!

MODES ARE SCALES!

MODES ARE SCALES

MODES ARE SCALES!

MODES ARE SCALES!

You play them the SAME WAY AS ANY OTHER SCALE.

That is all.
#26
I'm surprised nobody has posted that he could use G mixolydian over this progression ?_?

This progression does not use any F#'s, so he could most definitely play G mixolydian with the f natural, and it would sound fine, assuming he uses it as a passing tone over the C, Am and Em chords.

Plus, this would help contribute to the minor-y sound he wants.
Strat / SH-201 -> DOD Mixer -> ZVex Mastotron -> Fulltone Clyde -> BYOC OD II -> Ibanez FLL -> VS Chorus -> DOD FX 96 -> Boss DD-6 -> MXR 10-Band EQ -> Boss RC-2 -> Stereo Mixer -> Alesis PicoVerb -> Peavey Delta Blues 210/Yamaha Fifty112
#27
what you said doesn't make sense. if i am playing in G major, and i use the modes of G major. i will be playing in G major, regardless of what mode i am using. if the song has a strong pull toward G.

it's the same notes, i can visualize all the mode patterns of G major on the neck, and that will allow me to play G major all over the neck and stay in key.

do you understand what i am saying now?

even if the song doesn't have a strong pull towards G but the chord tones are all found in G major then i will still think in G major, all those same shapes/notes will still be highlighted for me when i look at the fretboard, however now it comes down a lot more on MY PHRASING, as it does with anything else.


let me give you an example of what goes on in my head when i play

ok some is playing a straight C major chord. strumming away on a C major chord cowboy style lol

i can play C major over it right. I can also play C lydian right? C mixolydian? correct?

ok so i'm playing C major, and i want to switch to C lydian.

to me, i don't think "i'm going to go to C lydian" my mind automatically switches to thinking "i'm going to play in G major"

so i'm playing in G major, over the C major chord.


once i establish that i am in G major, the entire fretboard opens up to me, because i can visualize all the notes in G major, using the shapes of G major's modes. does that make sense?

if i think C lydian, i lock up, i can't play like that.

now say i wanted to play C mixolydian. i don't think, "i'm gonna switch to C mixolydian" no way, too complicated.

i think "i'm gonna play in F major"

so i will play in F major over the C major chord.

boom, tough actin tinactin (sorry, john madden joke)

no seriously, boom, i automatically visualize the notes of F major all over the neck, using the shapes of F major's modes.

and the only factor that comes in to play right now that is more important then anything else, is that i milk the notes that make lydian and mixolydian unique, and visualize them as target notes.

and my phrasing.


i can give you one more example if you want?
http://richmusic.dmusic.com

"Those who dream by night, in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible."
#28
G Mixolydian could work in theory and it's worth trying, but G natural major is the safest choice.


Edit: Rich, modes are not box positions! A scale is C major if it's played at fret 1, 7, 12, or 17! As long as the resolution is to the C note, it's C Ionian.
#29
@ rich2k4: I guess that approach would work, but it is a pretty bad situation if you actually freeze up when people say C lydian or C mixolydian. You are definitely doing well if you can switch to another major key and instantly visualize the notes. But, in a situation like that where you have a droning chord in the background, it would probably be a better idea to think of parallel modes, like C ionian, lydian and mixolydian, just because they imply the tonal center being C. If you thought of them as C major, G major and F major, then they would essentially imply that the tonal centers would be C, G and F, respectively.
Strat / SH-201 -> DOD Mixer -> ZVex Mastotron -> Fulltone Clyde -> BYOC OD II -> Ibanez FLL -> VS Chorus -> DOD FX 96 -> Boss DD-6 -> MXR 10-Band EQ -> Boss RC-2 -> Stereo Mixer -> Alesis PicoVerb -> Peavey Delta Blues 210/Yamaha Fifty112
#30
^ true but i was wondering since there is a c maj would that possible compiment G mixolydian over this progression?
song stuck in my head today


#31
Quote by lbc_sublime
^ true but i was wondering since there is a c maj would that possible compiment G mixolydian over this progression?
G Mixo could work since there are no F#s. Having a C chord in there has nothing to do with it. I mean, G C D C has a C chord, but G mixo is out of the question for that progression.
#33
Quote by bangoodcharlote

Edit: Rich, modes are not box positions! A scale is C major if it's played at fret 1, 7, 12, or 17! As long as the resolution is to the C note, it's C Ionian.


sure they are most definantly box positions. at least they can be used that way, just like the box positions of the pentatonic. all of those are MODES of the pentatonics. do we ever think of them that way? well maybe some.

as long as you know your target note, your free to use the mode shapes as box shapes to help you move around the neck. if you used the notes of C major but were resolving on the G, you would have a mixolydian type of feel. but as long as you are aware of the G center, you are completely free to use the mode shapes as box patterns. do you understand?

@ rich2k4: I guess that approach would work, but it is a pretty bad situation if you actually freeze up when people say C lydian or C mixolydian. You are definitely doing well if you can switch to another major key and instantly visualize the notes. But, in a situation like that where you have a droning chord in the background,


i don't freeze up when people say C lydian or C mixolydian. i know exactly what they are and how to play them. If i had to think like that though, it's just too much. way too much work, way easier to think of the native major key and have the same notes opened up for you all over the neck.


it would probably be a better idea to think of parallel modes, like C ionian, lydian and mixolydian, just because they imply the tonal center being C. If you thought of them as C major, G major and F major, then they would essentially imply that the tonal centers would be C, G and F, respectively.



oh no no no, why would you ever think that? i am constantly aware that the tonal center is C, and am constantly aware what makes lydian and mixolydian unique.

as long as someone knows that, them chosing to think in G or F major is irrelevant. that is only a way for them (in this case, me) to be able to visualize all of that all over the neck. much less work.


in case your wondering, i actually copped this way of thinking from Scott Henderson, this is exactly how he thinks of this stuff. It is much easier, much more practical. Has really put things in perspective to me, and made me realize people just over think things, when it's really much simpler.

I hope Scott needs no introduction here.
http://richmusic.dmusic.com

"Those who dream by night, in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible."
#34
Quote by rich2k4
sure they are most definantly box positions. at least they can be used that way, just like the box positions of the pentatonic. all of those are MODES of the pentatonics. do we ever think of them that way? well maybe some.


No they are not. You can play any "box" of an A Minor Pentatonic scale you like, but if it's all over a progression in A minor, it's ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS A minor Pentatonic.

Mode =/= position. A mode is just a different scale, that happens to be accessable by starting on a different root note of a major scale.
#35
Rich, I get where your confusion comes from. Yes, every box position is a scale/mode, but a scale/mode is not specific to a single box position. For instance, the A minor pentatonic is any scale containing the notes A C D E G that resolves to A. it does not have to revolve around the 5th and 17th frets.
#36
Quote by rich2k4
i don't freeze up when people say C lydian or C mixolydian. i know exactly what they are and how to play them. If i had to think like that though, it's just too much. way too much work, way easier to think of the native major key and have the same notes opened up for you all over the neck.


oh no no no, why would you ever think that? i am constantly aware that the tonal center is C, and am constantly aware what makes lydian and mixolydian unique.

as long as someone knows that, them chosing to think in G or F major is irrelevant. that is only a way for them (in this case, me) to be able to visualize all of that all over the neck. much less work.


Sorry for any misunderstandings. The way you said it in that earlier post made it sound like you aren't able to handle it if you think of it as changing from C ionian to C lydian, which would most definitely be a bad thing.

But yeah, the method you use definitely works. I just like to think in terms of parallel scales rather than relative ones. It makes it easier for me to think of the scale degrees relative to the tonal center, which helps me when analyzing or coming up with little riffs on the spot.
Strat / SH-201 -> DOD Mixer -> ZVex Mastotron -> Fulltone Clyde -> BYOC OD II -> Ibanez FLL -> VS Chorus -> DOD FX 96 -> Boss DD-6 -> MXR 10-Band EQ -> Boss RC-2 -> Stereo Mixer -> Alesis PicoVerb -> Peavey Delta Blues 210/Yamaha Fifty112
#37
Quote by CowboyUp
No they are not. You can play any "box" of an A Minor Pentatonic scale you like, but if it's all over a progression in A minor, it's ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS A minor Pentatonic.

Mode =/= position. A mode is just a different scale, that happens to be accessable by starting on a different root note of a major scale.


Exactly.

You obviously grasp the concept of modes, but calling the different scale positions modes is wrong and misleading.
#38
Quote by ouchies
Exactly.

You obviously grasp the concept of modes, but calling the different scale positions modes is wrong and misleading.


they are though, no one thinks of them that way when it comes to pentatonic though.


No they are not. You can play any "box" of an A Minor Pentatonic scale you like, but if it's all over a progression in A minor, it's ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS A minor Pentatonic.


mhmm, thats because it resolves on the A.

modes apply to any scale. every scale has modes. we might not know the name of them all the time, but that does not mean they don't exist.

major scale has modes, with each having a specific name.

harmonic minor has modes, each with a specific name

melodic minor has modes, each with a specific name.

pentatonics have modes too, all you have to do is start and end on a different scale degree. they exist, i don't know the names of them though, thats irrelevant.


you solidified my point though. when someone says C lydian, i think G major. I can play any "box shape" of G major, which are the exact same shapes of every mode of G major. however, if i always have a tonal center of C, then it will ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS be C lydian, regardless if i think in G major

major factor comes in with your phrasing
http://richmusic.dmusic.com

"Those who dream by night, in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible."
#39
Quote by rich2k4
they are though, no one thinks of them that way when it comes to pentatonic though.




mhmm, thats because it resolves on the A.

modes apply to any scale. every scale has modes. we might not know the name of them all the time, but that does not mean they don't exist.

major scale has modes, with each having a specific name.

harmonic minor has modes, each with a specific name

melodic minor has modes, each with a specific name.

pentatonics have modes too, all you have to do is start and end on a different scale degree. they exist, i don't know the names of them though, thats irrelevant.


you solidified my point though. when someone says C lydian, i think G major. I can play any "box shape" of G major, which are the exact same shapes of every mode of G major. however, if i always have a tonal center of C, then it will ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS be C lydian, regardless if i think in G major

major factor comes in with your phrasing


Your method of playing works, but it is inaccurate. C Lydian is not the same as G Major. They have the same notes, but they aren't the same scale. A song in C Lydian sounds inexplicably different from a song in G major.

Modes are SCALES! A scale doesn't have "modes" while you are playing. If you are playing a "G major scale" over a song in C, you aren't playing G Ionian, even if you are playing around the third/fifteenth fret.

Again, modes are SCALES, NOT POSITIONS.
#40
Quote by rich2k4
they are though, no one thinks of them that way when it comes to pentatonic though.




mhmm, thats because it resolves on the A.

modes apply to any scale. every scale has modes. we might not know the name of them all the time, but that does not mean they don't exist.

major scale has modes, with each having a specific name.

harmonic minor has modes, each with a specific name

melodic minor has modes, each with a specific name.

pentatonics have modes too, all you have to do is start and end on a different scale degree. they exist, i don't know the names of them though, thats irrelevant.


you solidified my point though. when someone says C lydian, i think G major. I can play any "box shape" of G major, which are the exact same shapes of every mode of G major. however, if i always have a tonal center of C, then it will ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS be C lydian, regardless if i think in G major

major factor comes in with your phrasing


You think G Major which would contain the same notes as C Lydian, but playing in G Ionian (G Major) is wrong. In C Lydian you will resolve to C (or E or G) mostly and in G Major to G (or B or D). Also you said that the modes in Am pentatonic resolve to A, that makes no sense and you are contradicting yourself.
Page 1 of 3