I'm learning two of the major modes, Dorian and Phrygian, and I was wondering if I could use these modes in different scales, like the minor scale or the harmonic scale?
You mean "modes of the major scale," not "major modes." "Major modes" implies that the mode itself is major, which Phrygian and Dorian aren't. I suggest learning the modes of the major scale before learning modes of the harmonic minor and melodic minor, but I'll give you a link anyway.

The idea behind a mode is that you form a scale by playing another scale, starting on a note other than the normal root note. If you have a C major scale, the root is C, but if you start on D, you get the D Dorian mode. This is not to say that C Major and D Dorian are the same. In fact, they are very different; C major resolves to C and is a C scale while D Dorian resolves to D and is a D scale.

Modes of the minor scale:
The minor scale is the same as Aeolian, so what would the second mode of Aeolian be? 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7. Hmmm...doesn't that look like Locrian? That's because it is Locrian! Modes of modes are ridiculous. You just end up with the same scales you already know (ie the modes of the natural Minor scale are Aeolian, Locrian, Ionian...nothing new). However, Harmonic and Melodic minor are independent of the major scale, so new modes can be formed from those scales.

Going back to how modes are derived, you can form modes from any scale. There are modes of the minor pentatonic scale, exotic Asian scales, anything. You can even make your own scales and derive modes from those! This, however, exceeds the level at which you should currently be operating. Crawl before you walk.

Further Modes (harmonic and melodic minor): https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26618

Ah, makes sense.

Another question: If I can play in one song a D Dorian, could I instead play a E Phrygian, since they both use the same notes?
^No, they're not.

Quote by SilverDark
question: If I can play in one song a D Dorian, could I instead play a E Phrygian, since they both use the same notes?
No. While D Dorian and E Phrygian contain the same notes, they are not the smae...at all. If your song uses the D Dorian mode, your song resolves to D while E Phrygian resolves to E.

Don't confuse a mode or scale with a position on the neck. D Dorian covers the entire fretboard, not just a box around the 10th fret.
Quote by bangoodcharlote
^No, they're not.

No. While D Dorian and E Phrygian contain the same notes, they are not the smae...at all. If your song uses the D Dorian mode, your song resolves to D while E Phrygian resolves to E.

Don't confuse a mode or scale with a position on the neck. D Dorian covers the entire fretboard, not just a box around the 10th fret.

they are not the same, but you CAN play the E [hrygian "box" over a song in D dorian, and it will sound perfectly fine, just the whole thing will feel complete if you land on a D.

you can play the 7 box shapes of the C major scale over a song in D dorian and it will sound perfectly ok as long as you end phrases on D.

it doesn't matter if you play a song that has a C ionian feel, a D dorian feel, E phrygian feel, etc.

the "box shapes" stay exactly the same, but the tonic or home base note changes, you can interweave between these shapes to cover the entire neck.

if you look at a fretboard chart for C major, D dorian, E phrygian etc

and then compare it to a fretboard chart of D major, E dorian, F# Phrygian, etc

you will see that the D major fretboard chart is just the 7 "box shapes" of the C major scale all moved up 1 whole step.

i've gone into this before and apparently it has caused some controversy because i think differently then most people here. so i'll stop here.
http://richmusic.dmusic.com

"Those who dream by night, in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible."
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Don't confuse a mode or scale with a position on the neck. D Dorian covers the entire fretboard, not just a box around the 10th fret.

Yep, that's what I needed to hear. Even though D Dorian and E Phrygian use the same notes, it wouldn't be the same because of the root note of the scale. Is that right? Just clarifying.
Quote by SilverDark
Yep, that's what I needed to hear. Even though D Dorian and E Phrygian use the same notes, it wouldn't be the same because of the root note of the scale. Is that right? Just clarifying.

try to read my approach, you might find it easier.
http://richmusic.dmusic.com

"Those who dream by night, in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible."
I remember you. You have an odd way of thinking that isn't wrong, just odd.

However, box shapes are a terrible way of thinking of modes. The D Dorian scale is not E Phrygian if it's played around fret 12. It doesn't matter where you play something because you could move it elsewhere on the guitar. Likewise, there are no box shapes on a piano, just notes in the scale and notes outside of the scale.

"the "box shapes" stay exactly the same, but the tonic or home base note changes, you can interweave between these shapes to cover the entire neck." This is a very accurate statement.
Quote by SilverDark
Ah, makes sense.

Another question: If I can play in one song a D Dorian, could I instead play a E Phrygian, since they both use the same notes?

No. The progression determines the mode. You cannot play E phrygian if the progression resolves to D.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
Quote by SilverDark
Ah, makes sense.

Another question: If I can play in one song a D Dorian, could I instead play a E Phrygian, since they both use the same notes?

No, not naturally. You would have to force yourself to resolve to an E instead of a D.
if he means (and i think he does) the E phrygian "box shape" then yes, you can play it in a song thats D dorian and it will sound perfectly ok.

if he is talking about E phrygian literally as in using it's function over a D dorian song (i don't think he's talking about this though) then it won't work so well.
http://richmusic.dmusic.com

"Those who dream by night, in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible."
if he means (and i think he does) the E phrygian "box shape"

He said E phrygian. You need to stop hammering the idea of modes as box shapes. It's confusing as hell for people still don't fully understand modes.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
I remember you. You have an odd way of thinking that isn't wrong, just odd.

However, box shapes are a terrible way of thinking of modes. The D Dorian scale is not E Phrygian if it's played around fret 12. It doesn't matter where you play something because you could move it elsewhere on the guitar. Likewise, there are no box shapes on a piano, just notes in the scale and notes outside of the scale.

i never think of modes as box shapes, i use box shapes to get myself around the neck, but i still know the notes on the fretboard.

thats whats so great about guitar, there is movable shapes, makes learning things much easier.
http://richmusic.dmusic.com

"Those who dream by night, in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible."
Quote by rich2k4
if he means (and i think he does) the E phrygian "box shape" then yes, you can play it in a song thats D dorian and it will sound perfectly ok.

if he is talking about E phrygian literally as in using it's function over a D dorian song (i don't think he's talking about this though) then it won't work so well.

Yep, he can definitely play in that position but he should still know he is playing D Dorian.
Quote by Archeo Avis
He said E phrygian. You need to stop hammering the idea of modes as box shapes. It's confusing as hell for people still don't fully understand modes.

silverdark, since i'm not doing anything right now. if you contact me on AIM i can help you out with modes, i'd use live guitar examples to help you understand.

aim screen name is stratocasterx3
http://richmusic.dmusic.com

"Those who dream by night, in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible."
Last edited by rich2k4 at Feb 19, 2008,
Quote by rich2k4

silverdark, since i'm not doing anything right now. if you contact me on AIM i can help you out with modes, i'd use live guitar examples to help you understand.

aim screen name is stratocasterx3

Thanks, but no. I gathered enough information from all of you to know that I should learn how to play the different modes on the fretboard. I'll just keep practicing... and practicing... Thanks everyone!