Can you have a #6 chord or scale? Or a #13.

I was looking at Double harmonic scales and wondered how they worked when they were reworked so the 6th degree is augmented.

Cheers
It would involve a scale having a major seventh and a #6=b7. While I suppose it is theoretically possible, it is also theoretically possible to throw a pen in the air, have it land on its point, go to work, experience an earthquake, return home, and find the pen still on its point.

Edit: What's with the fabricated quotes by me, Elv, and all this chemistry talk?
Last edited by bangoodcharlote at Feb 23, 2008,
An explanation on a site I frequent...

The augmented sixth is a chromatic chord, in that at least one of its tones must be foreign to the key signature. This is because it contains the interval of the augmented sixth - an interval that is not found in the diatonic scale.

The dominant seventh is spelt 1 - 3 - (5) - flat7, while the augmented sixth is spelt 1 - 3 - (5) - sharp6. (The 5 is bracketed because it is often missing from the chord and it can be sharpened or flattened without damaging or altering its function.)

We can see how these two chords are represented on a keyboard by exactly the same notes. The difference between these two types of chord is in their resolution. In the dominant seventh the tritone in the chord is resolved to a third by the third moving up and the seventh moving down. In the augmented sixth this is reversed, so that the tritone is resolved to a third by the third moving down and the seventh moving up.

The most common resolution of the augmented sixth is to the major or minor triad a minor second below. It can also resolve effectively to a major triad a perfect fifth above.

Like the dominant seventh, the resolution of the augmented sixth is frequently extended with the interpolation of a second inversion triad on the same bass note as the resolution chord. So, instead of flatVIaug6 - V, we might get flatVIaug6 - Ic - V (which, in c major and including the final resolution is: Aflataug6 - Cc - G - C).

Just as the dominant chord is used as a secondary dominant which resolves to a chord that is diatonic to the key, so is the augmented sixth. The only difference is that all augmented sixth chords are secondary, because they are all chromatic.
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Thats quite interesting Archeo, thanks.

Quote by bangoodcharlote
It would involve a scale having a major seventh and a #6=b7. While I suppose it is theoretically possible, it is also theoretically possible to walk throught a wall if all of the spaces in the atoms align.

why could a scale not have this? Is it because you end up having 3 half steps?
The only reason i am confused, is because the Double Harmonic scale is perfectly acceptable, so i assumed it's modes would all 'exist'.
Quote by bangoodcharlote
it is also theoretically possible to walk throught a wall if all of the spaces in the atoms align.

Actually, no. Short explanation being that the atoms keep moving.
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Quote by elvenkindje
Actually, no. Short explanation being that the atoms keep moving.

But if you were fast enough, which in theory you could be, than it would be possible.
Even than it would not be possible, because if the space between atoms in the wall would be big enough for us to walk through, there is no wall at that place.
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Quote by elvenkindje
Even than it would not be possible, because if the space between atoms in the wall would be big enough for us to walk through, there is no wall at that place.

Atoms are already almost entirely empty space. The problem is the interaction between the particles and intra-molecular forces.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
^I already pointed out the movement of the atoms, which very roughly covers the interaction and the forces within.

But yes, the most popular theory is that atoms are almost entirely empty space, with just the core and the electrons etc around it filling up a bit of that space. The point is that even a percent of an inch of the wall is already filled by 10^x amount of atoms, where x is probably above 20 (and at least above 12) and I cba to look it up or calculate it. So if you think about it as so many parts in the wall, it just isn't very likely that they all line up perfectly for even a mere atom to shoot right through. And of course, humans are just a bunch of atoms combined and we can't go through a wall. Ever. Just because 'Even than it would not be possible, because if the space between atoms in the wall would be big enough for us to walk through, there is no wall at that place.'

And don't even start with the He-bombardment of a wall where some parts go through.
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^I believe two of his students did the experiment, but Rutherford helped out with the realisation and conclusion etc. But yes, that's the one I'm talking about.
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If we, as humans, are able to figure out a way to have every single elementary particle that makes up our body "borrow" energy from nearby locations in space, due to quantum vacuum fluctuations, we could, in theory, experience quantum tunneling, as it is called.

You could think of the entire body as being a single particle, which would probably make the math a lot simpler, but "borrowing" energy in the quantum sense pretty much does not happen on macro-scales. I guess it could happen, but the probability would be fvcking astronomically unlikely. That is, it probably hasn't happened on that scale even a single time in the entire history of the universe.

(Read In Search of Schrodinger's Cat by John Gribbin and The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene if this stuff interests you.)
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Quote by elvenkindje
And of course, humans are just a bunch of atoms combined and we can't go through a wall. Ever.

Yes they can. I saw Harry Potter do it in a movie when he had to board that train to go to school. I saw it. It's real.

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We go from talking about augmented 6ths to atoms and walking through walls.

Is it just me, or does this sound like what the WSILT is like.
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Quote by elvenkindje
^I believe two of his students did the experiment, but Rutherford helped out with the realisation and conclusion etc. But yes, that's the one I'm talking about.

But walking through walls is possible due to the wave-particle duality phenomenon. To have the ability to walk through the wall and display wave behaviour you'd have to travel incredibly slowly, slower than is practically possible.
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Quote by justin_fraser
We go from talking about augmented 6ths to atoms and walking through walls.

Is it just me, or does this sound like what the WSILT is like.

No, that's just about girls and this is about stuff that will never ever happen.

My final statement, because I already stated how I feel about this and whatever I say more about it, I'm just going to repeat myself. If you think it's possible to walk through a wall, prove it!
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The 6th interval can be augmented because the double harmonic scale has 3 consecutive half steps, so you can end up with the octave, major seventh and augmented 6th.

The altered scale is-
r b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7

The diminished scale (or Ultralocrian) is-
r b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 bb7

Both of these scales are more commonly known to be-

r b2 #2 3 b5 b6 b(bb)7

so how do we end up with a double degree?
Quote by branny1982
The 6th interval can be augmented because the double harmonic scale has 3 consecutive half steps, so you can end up with the octave, major seventh and augmented 6th.

The altered scale is-
r b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7

The diminished scale (or Ultralocrian) is-
r b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 bb7

Both of these scales are more commonly known to be-

r b2 #2 3 b5 b6 b(bb)7

so how do we end up with a double degree?

We get this because the diminished fourth is much less useful than a major third. However, I do not know why we use a #2 rather than a b3
We get this because the diminished fourth is much less useful than a major third. However, I do not know why we use a #2 rather than a b3

I would imagine that it's because the "b4" is the note actually functioning as the third, since the altered scale, like altered chord, is basically a dominant chord/scale with every possible alteration. The "b3" isn't determining the tonality of the scale, so we refer to it as a #2.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
Quote by Archeo Avis
I would imagine that it's because the "b4" is the note actually functioning as the third, since the altered scale, like altered chord, is basically a dominant chord/scale with every possible alteration. The "b3" isn't determining the tonality of the scale, so we refer to it as a #2.

Ahhh that makes sense, Thanks.

Thinking modally though, wouldnt the 1, b2, b3, b4, b5, b6, b7 (or #1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7) make more sense?