#1
I read an article in UGs lesson section. it explained that you didnt have to know every scale, and every mode to make an unforgettable solo. it also went on to explain that people like david gilmour normally used 2 scales to play most songs. it was all about creativity.
anyhow, armed with the relief that i dont have to be a theory nut to learn to solo, i started thinking about the c-a-g-e-d system and the 2 major scales i know. both major, because i dont know their minor or pentatonic. if i were playing along with lynyrd skynyrds simple man, the progression would be C, G, Am. now, i can play the melody of the song, everything except for the solos.
if i wanted to improvise over top that progression, what scales would you use? and why? remember i only know E maj, and D maj. do i need to know a minor scale to play over top the Am? here is what im thinking... using only E maj....use the E maj scale, with the root note starting on the 8th fret....song changes to G....use the same scale with root over the 3rd fret...song changes to Am....play the E min scale with the root on the 5th fret?

does my question make sense? am i thinking correctly? im sure there is probably a more efficient way to play this, but im learning!

thanks!
#2
I think that will work but when you are on the Am chord, play no sharps or flats. Am is the easiest scale to remember, just make sure you only have the natural letter names (only ABCDEFGA not like Ab or D#) If you want you can write it in major then look over the finished product and change all the sharps/flats to naturals to make it more minor sounding. You don't have to change all of them, just mess around with a few half-steps until it sounds just right.

HOWEVER: There is no C in E Major or D Major. They both have C#. You will have to learn a new scale.

EDIT - if you play Emaj on the 3rd fret you will actually be playing E in the key of G, also known as G Aeolian (Gmin). It's still a G scale, but it will sound sad and mysterious. Likewise E major in the 8th fret is E in the key of C, which is unusual since there is no C in Emaj. I don't know what that scale would be. Playing Emaj on the 5th fret gets you A Lydian. Lydian is a happier scale, lots of TV show theme songs are in Lydian. It won't get you a good sound for a minor chord. So in fact I think your theory won't work, I'll try to explain an alternative.
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Last edited by SkyValley at Feb 25, 2008,
#3
alright thanks for the info, ill have to do some figuring to see what works!
#4
Cmaj scale (C notes in Parentheses):



---------------------------------------------5-7-(8)
-------------------------------------5-6-8--------
--------------------2-4--(5)-7----------------
----------2-3-5--------------------------------
--(3)-5------------------------------------
-----------------------------

Use that for your C. Lets say the pattern is:

--------------------------
--------------------------
--------------------------
---------------3-2-5^------
---------3-5--------------3
--------------------------

C D F E G C are the notes, so the order is 1 2 4 3 5 3. The 5 and 8 are always the most important notes, which is why it is using a bend on 5 for emphasis, and it comes back to the root (1). It's a decent lick, but not yet a solo.

Now the song switches to G. Next section coming soon.
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#5
I suggest you read the "learn your theory" article in my sig. It goes into more detail than you need right now, but the beginning should answer all of your questions.

Read it a few times and try to figure things out by asking yourself what you don't understand and looking for the answers in the article. Of course, feel free to ask us any remaining questions.
#7
^I actually hear that more as resolving to A minor, meaning that the A minor pentatonic and blues scale would be appropriate.

Yes, I realize that they're the same notes, but as my article says, they're as similar as 508 and 850.
#9
^
1. I hear it resolve to A rather than C.
2. I know the song and find it to be sad.
3. It's a common rock thing to play C5 G5 A5 in the key of A minor. Expanded to full triads, that is C G Am and that's what he played.

It doesn't matter all that much because it is the same notes and your ear will guide you. If the soloist hears it resolve to A, he will play in (resolve to) A minor and if he hears it resolve to C, he will play in (resolve to) C.


Just to clarify my earlier post, "my article" was not actually written by me.
Last edited by bangoodcharlote at Feb 25, 2008,
#10
Pentatonic blues pattern is always on option but it's boring and redundant. Everyone uses it and it won't teach you anything about music.

When we last left off we had a lick in Cmaj:
--------------------------
--------------------------
--------------------------
---------------3-2-5^------
---------3-5--------------3
--------------------------

C D F E G C are the notes, so the order is 1 2 4 3 5 31. Now apply that pattern to the respective G scale. Playing your Cmaj scale in G gets you G Mixolydian, which is close enough to major to sound alright. Plus everyone will think you're cool cuz you use modes instead of blues scales. G Mixolydian goes:

-------------------------------0-1-3------
-----------------------0-1-3------
------------------0-2------
----------0-2-3-------
---0-2-3--------
-3----------

Notes for G Mixo are GABCDEFG. Again, no sharps or flats here. Cool, huh? Our first pattern was 1 2 4 3 5 1, which in this scale is G A C B D G.

So the same lick in G Mixo is:


---------
-------
-------
---------
-------3-2-5^
-3-5------------3

It's the same thing but up a string, basically. Neat how that worked out. I replaced some open notes with corresponding 5's because nobody wants a bunch of open notes ringing out in a solo.

Now the Am chord comes in. Remember how Amin had no sharps or flats, just like Cmaj and Gmixo? Well, guess what happens next, then?

That's right, it's the same scale/lick transposed up a whole step (2 frets) to A.

--------------
------------
---------------
--------------
------5-4-7^---
-5-7----------5---

Now you have the foundation layed, the rest is up to you. Build off that lick using other notes in their scales, take it up an octave or two on the repeat, flair it up with some techniques (vibrato, bends, pinch harmonics, whatever) and you've got a half decent solo. And it didn't take 400 hours or sloppy noodling around on the fretboard to figure out.

See kids, music theory is actually useful every now and then.
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Last edited by SkyValley at Feb 25, 2008,
#11
Playing your D scale in G gets you G Mixolydian

what the hell are you talking about. the scale you are reffering to is D dorian. not D maj. to easily find these scale/modes (whatever you want to refer to them as) they all parallel with C maj.

to TS if you do not understand how to use modes i suggest not listening, although it's not the worst advice.

learn them in the sticky and them come back to them

i mean how cool is it to say your playing a mode when your really just playing in the key of Aminor
song stuck in my head today


#12
Quote by lbc_sublime
Playing your D scale in G gets you G Mixolydian

what the hell are you talking about. the scale you are reffering to is D dorian. not D maj. to easily find these scale/modes (whatever you want to refer to them as) they all parallel with C maj.


Huh? D Dorian is D played with the notes of Emaj. In other words, D with F#, C#, G#, and D# instead of just F# and C#.

Dorian is always what you get when you play a scale as if it were starting on the second instead of the root. And I never said anything about it being D Major. I meant for him to play his Dmaj scale he knows but starting on the G instead of D.

G Mixolydian is parallel to C. Mixolydian= Major Scale with lowered 7th OR the scale as if it's starting on the fifth. Gmaj's only sharp is F#, which if lowerered gives you F natural and therefore the scale has no sharps or flats. C is G's fifth and Mixo counterpart. So yeah it's G Mixolydian.
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#13
he meant C maj scale starting on G - - that would be G mixolydian

but as far as I'm concerned you're not really playing IN G mixolydian unless the tonal center of the progression is G and you're playing the notes of the G mixolydian scale. You might think of it that way for each chord in the song but I don't think of it that way.
#14
no D dorian is not the same notes as Emaj iw ill show you

to make the major scale you use the formula WWHWWWH

thus giving emaj the notes:
E F# G# A B C# D# E

and when starting on D you get Dmajor

D E F# G A BC# D

now to use the dorian mode it implies that you are using a chord with a flattened third and/or a flattened 7th

there fore the formula directly changing the major scale consist of the intervals

1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 8(ROOT/OCTAVE)

giving you the scale

D E F G A B C D

parrelelling with the C major scale

does that make more sence to you

i am 100% positive that the lick you wrote is either in the key of Aim or the key of Cmaj and no matter how you look at it. it's really not modal. the progression determines the mode

actually i retract my last statement about being 100% sure because it could be G maj depending on the progression and prasing of the chords there's no real way to tell with only 3 chords and not hearing the song
song stuck in my head today


Last edited by lbc_sublime at Feb 25, 2008,
#16
Fvck me I did put Dmaj, he should play the Cmaj scale I showed him earlier in the thing to get G Mixolydian. I will go back and fix that.

That's what happens when you try to teach **** late at night. I went and fvcked up the alphabet.
Quote by CLVPX
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#17
^that's ok

i know what you mean i screw up all the time
song stuck in my head today


#18
Quote by chagmaier
I read an article in UGs lesson section. it explained that you didnt have to know every scale, and every mode to make an unforgettable solo. it also went on to explain that people like david gilmour normally used 2 scales to play most songs. it was all about creativity.
anyhow, armed with the relief that i dont have to be a theory nut to learn to solo, i started thinking about the c-a-g-e-d system and the 2 major scales i know. both major, because i dont know their minor or pentatonic. if i were playing along with lynyrd skynyrds simple man, the progression would be C, G, Am. now, i can play the melody of the song, everything except for the solos.
if i wanted to improvise over top that progression, what scales would you use? and why? remember i only know E maj, and D maj. do i need to know a minor scale to play over top the Am? here is what im thinking... using only E maj....use the E maj scale, with the root note starting on the 8th fret....song changes to G....use the same scale with root over the 3rd fret...song changes to Am....play the E min scale with the root on the 5th fret?

does my question make sense? am i thinking correctly? im sure there is probably a more efficient way to play this, but im learning!

thanks!


If someone refers to "knowing 2 scales" it means two entire scales as in knowing them in all keys all over the fretboard...simply knowing a scale in one key is of little use to you from a soloing point of view unless all the songs you play over are in the same key.

Learning scales in all keys is pretty easy as at the very least all you need to do is transpose the pattern.
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#19
Quote by SkyValley
Huh? D Dorian is D played with the notes of Emaj. In other words, D with F#, C#, G#, and D# instead of just F# and C#.

Dorian is always what you get when you play a scale as if it were starting on the second instead of the root. And I never said anything about it being D Major. I meant for him to play his Dmaj scale he knows but starting on the G instead of D.

G Mixolydian is parallel to C. Mixolydian= Major Scale with lowered 7th OR the scale as if it's starting on the fifth. Gmaj's only sharp is F#, which if lowerered gives you F natural and therefore the scale has no sharps or flats. C is G's fifth and Mixo counterpart. So yeah it's G Mixolydian.
The bold parts are incorrect.

D Dorian has absolutely nothing to do with E major. In fact, the E chord in D Dorian is Em. D Dorian is a mode of the C major scale. The Dorian mode formed from E major is F# Dorian.

G Mixolydian is not parallel to C major. It is relative to C major. G Mixolydian is, however, parallel to G major. Parallel means that the root stays the same but the notes change, so G Mixolydian, G Harmonic Minor, and G Lydian are all parallel scales, while G Mixolydian, C Major, and F Lydian are all reletive scales.
Last edited by bangoodcharlote at Feb 26, 2008,
#21
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tbh, once you know the majorscale well the rest comes easy



makes perfect sense. all that mumbo jumbo about modes gives me a headache. ill read those few articles on theory mentioned and do some more thinking!

thanks for all the info guys!
#22
Quote by bangoodcharlote
The bold parts are incorrect.

D Dorian has absolutely nothing to do with E major. In fact, the E chord in D Dorian is Em. D Dorian is a mode of the C major scale. The Dorian mode formed from E major is F# Dorian.

G Mixolydian is not parallel to C major. It is relative to C major. G Mixolydian is, however, parallel to G major. Parallel means that the root stays the same but the notes change, so G Mixolydian, G Harmonic Minor, and G Lydian are all parallel scales, while G Mixolydian, C Major, and F Lydian are all reletive scales.


**** you're right I went completely ass-backwards.

That is the last time I try to teach theory right before I go to bed.
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