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#41
Quote by bangoodcharlote
We're not talking about music. We're talking about speed. I'm sorry that you don't care about how fast you can play, but since you don't, kindly piss off.


Why would you even play a MUSICAL INSTRUMENT.... if you dont intend to play music on it ??

and if your talking about any aspect of what you do with a MUSICAL INSTRUMENT, shouldnt it somehow relate to MUSIC, and doesnt it make sense to use MUSICAL TERMS??

your sorry? You pity me for not caring about how fast I play ? LOL

Rejecting the term NPS has nothing to do with caring or not caring about playing fast. Its just about seeing the term for what it is, and realizing there are better, more appropriate terms that can be used.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Feb 27, 2008,
#43
Right...

GuitarMunky: Good musicians know that nps serves no purpose, we know this and should just pity those who do not yet realise it; just leave him be, please.

bangoodcharlote: GuitarMunky is right, the term nps serves no use beyond internet pissing contests by people who have nothing better to do; I can flat out guarantee you that all your favourite shredders never use the term nps and most of them have probably never even heard it.
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#45
Quote by bangoodcharlote
You do what you need to do. I'll just stick to being proficient on the guitar.


For a start I'm good on guitar, I know I am so I don't need to get into stupid internet pissing contests with the likes of you.

Secondly, do you practice in nps? Have you ever heard anyone tell anyone else how to play a piece of music in nps? Have you ever written something with a specific nps in mind? Probably not, so what use does nps serve beyond showing off on forums and trying to win arguments about "who's the better guitarist" without actually taking music into account? None.
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#46
Quote by Zaphod_Beeblebr
For a start I'm good on guitar, I know I am so I don't need to get into stupid internet pissing contests with the likes of you.

Secondly, do you practice in nps? Have you ever heard anyone tell anyone else how to play a piece of music in nps? Have you ever written something with a specific nps in mind? Probably not, so what use does nps serve beyond showing off on forums and trying to win arguments about "who's the better guitarist" without actually taking music into account? None.


He is not saying he practices in nps nor that it is useful for music at all. NPS is a term used to describe a shredders speed, that is it, it serves no purpose, so stop leaving him alone. He knows it serves no purpose except to measure speed, thats all, and we all know that, theres no need to keep repeating it. Measuring a shredders speed in NPS is common around these forums, so get over yourselves.
#47
Quote by ouchies
He is not saying he practices in nps nor that it is useful for music at all. NPS is a term used to describe a shredders speed, that is it, it serves no purpose, so stop leaving him alone. He knows it serves no purpose except to measure speed, thats all, and we all know that, theres no need to keep repeating it. Measuring a shredders speed in NPS is common around these forums, so get over yourselves.


I know but I think GuitarMunky is right, using the term nps seems to promote a certain mindset that goes with the idea that speed is an important factor and that being fastest is important in any way. A mindset that ignores the music, which is, after all, the most important thing.

I'm done with this discussion, everyone's getting the wrong idea about everyone else and I really can't be bothered anymore.

Edit: just found this, thought it was quite funny: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNMkKC-0Pk0

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Last edited by Zaphod_Beeblebr at Feb 27, 2008,
#49
Just throwing this out there, but when was the last time you practiced with a metronome in notes per second, or saw a powertab in notes per second, or told your band "Alright, I think we should playthis at around 11 nps"? I just prefer bps because it's more common, and I could care less about how fast I play. As long as it's fast enough.
#50
^You don't prefer bps. You prefer bpm. We've established that NPS is not used in a musical score, but rather used to compare the speed of notes at different tempos.
#51
NPS = useless, I just like it to see how fast I can go
BPM = Can be used in a music situation. all good.

/argument.
#52
im pretty sure for shred...what about a 13 note per second lick is prly the minimum...?
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#53
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#54
i consider shred to be anything that is to fast for a guitar player to play with straight down picking
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#55
shred starts at about 5 billion notes per second
but everyone sucks, so start at 10
#56
Munky, I respect your stance and you seem to have a very balanced view, but kindly stop being stubborn. NPS is largely a personal and comparative measure. That is, I know I can play 12 NPS, so then I compare it to the speed at which I want to get to.

NPS, by the way, IS valid musically. It is largely independent of tempo, so when you say you can play 10 NPS to someone, they can tell that you can play 16ths at 150 bpm, or sextuplets at 105 bpm (or whatever). It's generally a more universally applicable term, especially given the intricacies of time signatures, tempo, technique ect.
That said, I understand your point of view. I personally measure my effectiveness while playing at speed against tempo. That is, I can play 12 notes per second, but that has to be matched against the tempo it's most relevant to (180 bpm) in this case.

Man, I understand completely where you're coming from but no-one wants to hear about how applicable something is or the limitations of a certain musical viewpoint. Music is made of many different things and sometimes speed has to be worked on independent of phrasing, and sometimes it has to be worked on in conjunction with phrasing.
Again, I believe you have balanced views on many of the topics that crop up here, but I do find your comments on shred and building speed to be annoying in general.
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#57
^

+1
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#58
Quote by MadassAlex
Munky, I respect your stance and you seem to have a very balanced view, but kindly stop being stubborn. NPS is largely a personal and comparative measure. That is, I know I can play 12 NPS, so then I compare it to the speed at which I want to get to.


1st of all, I appreciate your respectful tone. but I have to ask....whos being stubborn? Im just standing up for what I see as an important point. If anything im trying to help. The stubborn person is the one that goes on doing something even after they realize that it doesnt make sense.

as far as a personal and comparitive measure..... are you saying you cant do that with tempo and note values? because you can you know.

Quote by MadassAlex

NPS, by the way, IS valid musically. It is largely independent of tempo, so when you say you can play 10 NPS to someone, they can tell that you can play 16ths at 150 bpm, or sextuplets at 105 bpm (or whatever). It's generally a more universally applicable term, especially given the intricacies of time signatures, tempo, technique ect.
That said, I understand your point of view. I personally measure my effectiveness while playing at speed against tempo. That is, I can play 12 notes per second, but that has to be matched against the tempo it's most relevant to (180 bpm) in this case.


Why would you want to play anything independent of tempo? You plan on playing those licks or arpeggios or scale runs ..... within a piece of music right...... that piece of music is in most cases going to have a tempo. Why would a term that measures your speed in a way that is not applicable to music be relevant to a person thats going to play music. Im sorry but that just doesnt make sense.


I honestly dont understand why you wouldnt just work on say... 16th notes at XXX bpm.
You can compare in the same way, and you can apply it musically. No converting, no calculating. You still have your "stat".... but you can apply it musically.
Quote by MadassAlex

Man, I understand completely where you're coming from but no-one wants to hear about how applicable something is or the limitations of a certain musical viewpoint. Music is made of many different things and sometimes speed has to be worked on independent of phrasing, and sometimes it has to be worked on in conjunction with phrasing.
Again, I believe you have balanced views on many of the topics that crop up here, but I do find your comments on shred and building speed to be annoying in general.


Well im sorry that I annoyed you, and I appreciate your tone. I have to respectfully disagree though. Nothing you said has convinced me that NPS is a musically valid term. I disagree that you ever need to practice speed separate from tempo, and Im sure that the term NPS was NOT created to allow shred guitarists to transcend tempo.

Also are you saying that NPS is more universally accepted.... than note value / tempo ??? what does universally accepted mean? NPS is a term used exclusively by guitarists from a specific genre...... its a minority of people that use it..... its in no way universally accepted, and there is a reason for that. Its only true purpose benefits 1 group of people...... people that need to impress or be impressed by how fast they can play, namely..... shred guitarists. A vast majority of musicians, do NOT use the term. I really think that says alot and its a point worth thinking about. I know it offends some people, but maybe it will wake a few people up. A fair trade off IMO.

BTW, I happen to like alot of shred guitar playing. This term though, IMO represents the bad element of the genre. It perpetuates the fast = good and nothing else matters mind set that unfortunately permeates a genre that otherwise has some really good qualities.
again im sorry if I offended you. Sometimes you have to make a stand on something if you think its important. anyway I've had my rant. thats really all I can do.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Feb 28, 2008,
#59
WEll, I'd consider even 8 NPS average to be shred, because I not only have no idea how fast I play, but because a lot of the time, the shredder isn't shredding at all, and an average of 8 NPS could include the times when they're playing slowly and the times when they go into killzone mode.
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#60
Quote by woodenbandman
WEll, I'd consider even 8 NPS average to be shred, because I not only have no idea how fast I play, but because a lot of the time, the shredder isn't shredding at all, and an average of 8 NPS could include the times when they're playing slowly and the times when they go into killzone mode.


As far as I'm concerned shred isn't a genre or anything like that; it's fast playing. There's jazz shred, blues shred, shred metal, avant garde shred but it's all just another genre that happens to contain fast playing.

I stand by about 10-11 nps being the cutoff point.
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#61
Quote by Zaphod_Beeblebr
shred isn't a genre
It absolutely is. The 80s (and perhaps even more recent) instrumental stuff like Yngwie and Satch qualifies as the genre of shred. There is also the verb "to shred," which just means to play fast.


I also stand by 10 nps as the cutoff point.

#62
Quote by GuitarMunky
I honestly dont understand why you wouldnt just work on say... 16th notes at XXX bpm.
You can compare in the same way, and you can apply it musically. No converting, no calculating. You still have your "stat".... but you can apply it musically.

What if you're playing sixteenth note triplets or septuplets?
By converting to NPS you can easily compare speeds using different note values.

Quote by GuitarMunky
Also are you saying that NPS is more universally accepted.... than note value / tempo ??? what does universally accepted mean?

The term he used was universally apllicable, meaning it can be applied to any note values at any tempo.

Quote by GuitarMunky
Its only true purpose benefits 1 group of people...... people that need to impress or be impressed by how fast they can play, namely..... shred guitarists.

I'm not speaking for everyone, but I don't use NPS to impress anyone or myself with how fast I play. I use it as a tool to monitor my progress when I build my speed up so I can become a more technically proficient player.
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Last edited by White_Devil at Feb 28, 2008,
#63
Quote by Spamwise
Any thoughts? I know it doesn't matter. I'm not even close. I was just wondering.


maybe 16th notes at 140bpm. It's not just the speed that makes shred. You can play as fast as you want, but the really good shred (Yngwie, Jason Becker, Steve Vai etc) has melodic significance. You hear people claiming to be the fastest, but their melodies suffer from excessive speed. I can go pretty fast, but I can understand it's place. There's a place for speed, and a place for slower stuff. Sometimes, 8th notes laced with bends and vibratos can be more powerful than 32nd notes.
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#64
Quote by bangoodcharlote
It absolutely is. The 80s (and perhaps even more recent) instrumental stuff like Yngwie and Satch qualifies as the genre of shred. There is also the verb "to shred," which just means to play fast.


I also stand by 10 nps as the cutoff point.



Yngwie is Neoclassical metal and Satch is instrumental rock, they both just happen to include shred in their songs.
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#65
Quote by JL_Shredder
(Yngwie, ... has melodic significance.


Clever use of an oxymoron!
#66
Quote by Zaphod_Beeblebr
Yngwie is Neoclassical metal and Satch is instrumental rock, they both just happen to include shred in their songs.
They're both instrumental rock. The guys that play a lot of instrumental rock with speedy, seemingly impossible guitar playing are considered to be the genre of shred.

Yes, Yngwie can also be considered neo-classical metal, but Shred is an all-inclusive term for any of those mainly instrumental bands from the 80s.
#67
Quote by White_Devil
What if you're playing sixteenth note triplets or septuplets?


Wow, you guys are really something else. Sixteenth notes at 120 doesn't mean "sixteenth notes, maybe triplets, maybe sextuplets, maybe x". It means 4 notes per beat at tempo = 120. Period.
#68
Quote by Vomit Rapist
Wow, you guys are really something else. Sixteenth notes at 120 doesn't mean "sixteenth notes, maybe triplets, maybe sextuplets, maybe x". It means 4 notes per beat at tempo = 120. Period.

I'm not sure if you understood what I meant.
Sixteenth note triplets = Six notes per beat
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#69
I have a few points of my own to throw out:

First, pertaining to "impressiveness/bragging", I think that saying you can play 15 NPS less amazing sounding than saying that you can play 900 notes per minute.

Next, for measuring personal speed, NPS is more effective: Without calculating it, would you actually be able to tell me that 16th septuplets at 116 BPM are faster than 16th sextuplets at 132 BPM? This could be a possible scenario if you are working on multiple licks. When I train on speed stuff I always do the lick I'm using with a metronome, but I calculate it afterwards so I can compare it to other licks of mine. I generally won't run around bragging that I hit X NPS on X lick. Every now and then it comes up with some guitarist I know, but not to brag.

I agree that using BPM and note divisions is more practical in music (I use it), but I find it less clear as a measurement of speed, which is where I convert it to NPS.

I'll add some more thoughts tomorrow, and I'm happy to debate/discuss this with people so long as everyone stays civilized (it got pretty rough a bit farther back).
#70
Quote by TheShred201
I have a few points of my own to throw out:

First, pertaining to "impressiveness/bragging", I think that saying you can play 15 NPS less amazing sounding than saying that you can play 900 notes per minute.


why? because 15 is a smaller number than 900? LOL man thats like a 3 year old kid thinking that 100 pennies is worth more than 1 dollar. I think the shredders that came up with the term NPS, were mentally a little further than a 3 year old.....at least enough to realize that 1 second goes by fast, and that playing alot of notes in that fast amount of time sounds really impressive.


Quote by TheShred201

Next, for measuring personal speed, NPS is more effective: Without calculating it, would you actually be able to tell me that 16th septuplets at 116 BPM are faster than 16th sextuplets at 132 BPM? This could be a possible scenario if you are working on multiple licks. When I train on speed stuff I always do the lick I'm using with a metronome, but I calculate it afterwards so I can compare it to other licks of mine. I generally won't run around bragging that I hit X NPS on X lick. Every now and then it comes up with some guitarist I know, but not to brag.
I agree that using BPM and note divisions is more practical in music (I use it), but I find it less clear as a measurement of speed, which is where I convert it to NPS.

I'll add some more thoughts tomorrow, and I'm happy to debate/discuss this with people so long as everyone stays civilized (it got pretty rough a bit farther back).


how is BPM less clear?

16th septuplets at 132 BPM IS faster than 16th septuplets at 116 BPM. throwing in septuplets makes no difference. its the same as it is if it were quarter notes, or 8ths, or 16ths. Faster BPM on the same note value = faster. Its really simple. Alot simpler and much more musically applicable than converting it to anything else. There is NO reason to convert.
The only rebuttal I've seen so far that actually makes any sense is from Spamwise.

Quote by Spamwise
I don't know, it just is kind of cool to see how many nps you're playing. bragging about it is of course stupid and immatuire, and if that's what a person is concentrating on they're missing the point.


at least there is no BS here. He doesnt try to justify it in anyway, and admits what he gets out of it. I can respect that, and i agree it IS kind of cool ( as a novelty) to see how many notes you can play in a second.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Feb 29, 2008,
#72
Quote by GuitarMunky
why? because 15 is a smaller number than 900? LOL man thats like a 3 year old kid thinking that 100 pennies is worth more than 1 dollar. I think the shredders that came up with the term NPS, were mentally a little further than a 3 year old.....at least enough to realize that 1 second goes by fast, and that playing alot of notes in that fast amount of time sounds really impressive.
Which of these has more meaning: Drive 53 Miles and then exit the highway OR Drive 3358080 inches and then exit the highway? Surely 3358080 inches has no actual meaning to you, while 53 miles on the highway you know to be around an hour. Likewise, 900 notes per minute doesn't have any practical meaning, while 15 notes per second gives you an good idea of speed.

Quote by GuitarMunky
how is BPM less clear?
Without doing any kind of conversion, tell me which is faster: 16th notes at 188 bpm or 7:4 16th notes (seven notes in one beat, between 16th note triplets and 32nd notes) at 125 bpm. Obviously someone can say that 16th notes at 130bpm are faster than 16 notes at 129 bpm. But when the tempos and/or note values are different, that's when you need to convert. Likewise, it's easy to say that 100mph is faster than 80 kph. But you need to convert to a common unit to say that 100 mph is faster than 177 feet per second.
#73
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Which of these has more meaning: Drive 53 Miles and then exit the highway OR Drive 3358080 inches and then exit the highway? Surely 3358080 inches has no actual meaning to you, while 53 miles on the highway you know to be around an hour. Likewise, 900 notes per minute doesn't have any practical meaning, while 15 notes per second gives you an good idea of speed.



ofcourse notes per minute has no practical meaning.... notes per anything has no practical meaning. (other than the obvious)

Look if your working on speed, as it applies to music than you need to do it in the realm of music. Tempo is in the realm of music, notes per second is not. Keep in mind this forum is called "musician talk"..... why would we talk in anything other than musician terms.

Heres an example. Your working on 16th notes ( or any partciular note value)..... you know you can play them at 140, but you want to push yourself a little.......well, thats as simple as turning the metronome to a faster setting. it doesnt matter how many notes per second your playing.... its a completely irrelevant term. Tempo does the trick just fine.

Now what about a variety of rhythms. Ok, so you work on a piece of music that has a variety of rhythms. You work at it at a certain tempo, lets say 150. You want to push yourself speedwise...... set the metronome faster. again no need for calculations.....tempo is the only necessary indicator of speed. Its a musicians term. It makes sense to use a musicians term in a "musician talk" forum. And yeah its advanced technique. Do advanced players transcend musicianship? I would say no.

Quote by bangoodcharlote
Without doing any kind of conversion, tell me which is faster: 16th notes at 188 bpm or 7:4 16th notes (seven notes in one beat, between 16th note triplets and 32nd notes) at 125 bpm. Obviously someone can say that 16th notes at 130bpm are faster than 16 notes at 129 bpm. But when the tempos and/or note values are different, that's when you need to convert. Likewise, it's easy to say that 100mph is faster than 80 kph. But you need to convert to a common unit to say that 100 mph is faster than 177 feet per second.


why would you even want to compare unlike things like that. thats not a useful equation as it assumes that playing XX NPS = XX NPS regardless of the variation in rhythm patterns.... which is NOT the case. That would lead a person to believe that because they can play a sweep arpeggio at 15 NPS.... that they can play anything at 15NPS.... it just doesnt work that way. You still always have to address the situation in the musical realm (BPM / note values) .....why not just stay there?
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Feb 29, 2008,
#74
Well you would obviously have to maintain that speed for a whole second to actually play that many notes in a second.

Some of us care how fast something is. We value musicianship too, but you can't fault us for liking speed. For instance, is there anything wrong with those guys who are trying to break the land speed record? Those "cars" aren't always the most beautiful things, but there's something to be said for breaking the sound barrier at sea level, even in an ugly car.

Likewise, I can value something for simply being fast and there shouldn't be anything wrong with that. However, in order to compare pure speeds, the units must be standardized (ex. 100 mph is faster than 120 kph, but you would have to convert everything into mph or kph to mathematically prove that). The only way to say that 7:4 16th notes at 125 bpm is faster than 16th notes at 188 is to convert everything to nps.
#75
Quote by bangoodcharlote
in order to compare pure speeds, the units must be standardized .


BPM is the standard. Your actually using it, but then needlessly converting it into something else.
shred is gaudy music
#76
Quote by GuitarMunky
BPM is the standard.
No, it's not. How are you not getting that? Compare the speeds of 16th notes at 160 bpm and 16th note triplets at 110 bpm. How is tempo the standard?
#77
Quote by bangoodcharlote
No, it's not. How are you not getting that? Compare the speeds of 16th notes at 160 bpm and 16th note triplets at 110 bpm. How is tempo the standard?


BPM is the standard way of measuring tempo. There is no need to compare 16ths @ 160 vs 16th note triplets at 110 bpm. what purpose would that serve?


Whats useful and musically applicable is knowing what you can do at a particular tempo. that way if you are playing over a song at that tempo, you can be confident in knowing what you can and cant pull off at that tempo.

Now, if your not interested in music, but play guitar purely to be competitive in a sportslike manner, you still have to take this into consideration:

one of the biggest misconceptions among users of the term NPS, is that speed = technical proficiency. While it certainly can be an indicator, it is by no means the defining factor of being technically proficient at the guitar ( or any instrument ).

comparing NPS vs NPS is very misleading, because it leaves all other factors out of the statistic. If you want to have a true battle of technical proficiency, you have to take into account ALL factors.
shred is gaudy music
#78
You even said it and you don't get it! We use nps when we're turning music into a competition. Some of us are competative and like to be able to play fast! This doesn't mean we completely disregard everything else, but when you're racing, you take speed over sound (accuracy's part of speed).

No, this is not just a dick-measuring contest. I do this plenty and I'm a woman.

That is when you use NPS.
#79
Quote by bangoodcharlote
You even said it and you don't get it! We use nps when we're turning music into a competition. Some of us are competative and like to be able to play fast!



If you use NPS to compare skill.... you are disregarding everything else, period. And yes I get it. Whats not to get? the use of the term NPS is a way for shredders to compete based simply on how many notes they can play in a second... nothing more. It allows you to have a "stat" attached to your playing that in many cases can mislead you into thinking that the stat somehow = your technical proficiency on the instrument.


Quote by bangoodcharlote
This doesn't mean we completely disregard everything else, but when you're racing, you take speed over sound (accuracy's part of speed).


taking one thing over another = disregarding the other thing.

In an artform where sound is the medium... im not sure why you would want to choose ANYTHING over sound. In the end, what it sounds like is what matters. If its fast, but it sounds like crap..... whats the point.... whos going to want to listen to it? If your only interest is speed.... why not just play a sport that involves speed.... like racing ?
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Feb 29, 2008,