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#1
The new wave of music that's spreading throughout the musical world has brought a whole new entourage of bands and singers that produce some songs without any pre-conceived notion of what is good and what is otherwise. These artists are the ones that utterly push me towards this question: What is the line between music and noise? How can this line be distinguished? Who are these "artists"? Does there music deserve to be heeded upon?
Last edited by John2314andrew at Mar 3, 2008,
#2
I have nothing against their fans, and I will more than likely be flamed for this, but I can not stand Dillinger Escape Plan. They have great energy in live shows, but tend to over do it. Also, some of there stuff sounds like a mess.

Obviously, the line between noise and music depends on personal preference. Some one who likes blues, may not like metal. That person may call that type of music "Noise" (just an example). lets say that someone likes classical but doesnt like hard rock(yet again, just using this as an example, not how it is). Again, they may define that genre as noise. Like I said, it's all personal preference.
Last edited by metal_maniac#1 at Mar 3, 2008,
#3
Quote by metal_maniac#1
I have nothing against their fans, and I will more than likely be flamed for this, but I can not stand Dillinger Escape Plan. They have great energy in live shows, but tend to over do it. Also, some of there stuff sounds like a mess.

absolutely.
#4
One more band/genre bashing in this thread and I'm reporting it. Answer the questions in the original post

What is the line between music and noise?

Music is noise created with artistic intention.

How can this line be distinguished?

See above

Who are these "artists"?

Every musician ever has created music with artistic intention.

Does there music deserve to be heeded upon?

Definately.
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#5
ok, he asked who these artists are, I was letting him know an artist that I felt were making "noise". I was just backing that statement up with my thoughts on the band. I meant no disrespect, and did not mean to "bash" them.
#7
And you're reported
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#9
Quote by John2314andrew
The new wave of music that's spreading throughout the musical world has brought a whole new entourage of bands and singers that produce some songs without any pre-conceived notion of what is good and what is otherwise. These artists are the ones that utterly push me towards this question: What is the line between music and noise? How can this line be distinguished? Who are these "artists"? Does there music deserve to be heeded upon?


The answer to this is quite simple, music is noise which consists of of three major components:

1.Rhythm
2.Melody
3.Harmony

Anything that has these three properties is deemed as music, good or bad. The term 'music' is not qualatative but technical.

p.s. anyone that defines ANY piece of music as being "just noise" is an ignorant retard.
#10
Quote by Atreideslegend
The answer to this is quite simple, music is noise which consists of of three major components:

1.Rhythm
2.Melody
3.Harmony

Anything that has these three properties is deemed as music, good or bad. The term 'music' is not qualatative but technical.

p.s. anyone that defines ANY piece of music as being "just noise" is an ignorant retard.



agreed.


Prime, if your reading this then your a dumba**!
#11
The answer to this is quite simple, music is noise which consists of of three major components:

1.Rhythm
2.Melody
3.Harmony


This contains no harmony, but I'm sure you agree it is music
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=LU_QR_FTt3E

Edit: OP, enjoy FOTB.
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#12
my post my not seem relevant, mainly cuz its pseudo-psychological blabbler, but it has a point.

Anal **** is messy grindcore, and there isn't any clear artistic aspiration.
it doesn't matter what the artist intends, because perception is subjective.
(was reminded of AC when DEP was mentioned; I enjoy both bands).

the correlaries (sp?) that you happen upon are just part of the experience. people will see different things due to their different upbringings and viewpoints. of course, all this is based in the past, so trends will emerge in what they like.
thats way comtempary music is popular. its easier to access for them. and even those who like really ****ed music/noise like Today is the Day, The Locust, Daughters, etc. do it because of past experience.
its more that they try to escape the past, while in reality, they are no different from those who listen to pop music. they just use different ways of reaching the same goal.

avant-garde really isn't all that original in its post-modernist terms. the deconstruction and rebuilding of musical notions becomes futile, since the experimental qualities that pioneers strive for become commonplace.
again, this shows that this new wave of art-noise will become standard, and people will look for a new way to escape the cycle. but running from the cycle is just one step of this enternally repeating process.

you know what? i can either end this dignified or just ruin it.
#13
nice. lucky #12. which reminds me. Check out The Number 12 Looks Like You if you like harsh abrasive mathcore pierced prog/jazz. there's an 80% chance you will hate them, no matter how open-minded you are.
War From A Harlots Mouth falls within the same category, and you will hate it. as well as any of the bands I mentioned in my other post.
#14
Quote by Ænimus Prime
This contains no harmony, but I'm sure you agree it is music
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=LU_QR_FTt3E

Edit: OP, enjoy FOTB.


Errr harmony doesnt have to more than one instrument, its a relationship between two or more notes. An arpeggio has harmony though no two notes are played at the same time.

Dictionary.com entry for harmony:

Music
A)The study of the structure, progression, and relation of chords.
B)Simultaneous combination of notes in a chord.
C)The structure of a work or passage as considered from the point of view of its chordal characteristics and relationships.
D)A combination of sounds considered pleasing to the ear.

For your viewing pleasure...

So...yeah it does have harmony...
Last edited by Atreideslegend at Mar 3, 2008,
#15
Quote by Atreideslegend
Errr harmony doesnt have to more than one instrument, its a relationship between two or more notes. An arpeggio has harmony though no two notes are played at the same time.

Dictionary.com entry for harmony:

Music
A)The study of the structure, progression, and relation of chords.
B)Simultaneous combination of notes in a chord.
C)The structure of a work or passage as considered from the point of view of its chordal characteristics and relationships.
D)A combination of sounds considered pleasing to the ear.

For your viewing pleasure...

So...yeah it does have harmony...


http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=l1WKmoUrDiQ

Absolutely NO harmony or melody here, whatsoever, and still music.
#16
What is one man's noise is another man's music. It is entirely up to the individual. There are no real standards for what is and what isn't music.
#18
Quote by isaac_bandits
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=l1WKmoUrDiQ

Absolutely NO harmony or melody here, whatsoever, and still music.


What the hell is wrong with you people, within 1/2 a second of him playing i can hear two distinct notes; a treble note and rim tap both occupying different pitches. In it's entirety i count atleast 5 distinct pitches, can you say "pentatonic"???

Two different notes played to a distinct rhythm pattern = melody
Two notes existing within one frame of reference e.g. a key of sorts (the first tap denotes the frame of reference/key, the second it's harmonic counterpart or development) = harmony

You really really need to develop your ear man, obviously you have no idea of how music functions as a scientific and mathmatical undertaking. You're a closed minded fool if you think that because it's a drum it has only one pitch or 'note'. Can no-one on this forum just accept a definition that is staring them in the face?

Edit: Actually i lie, theres far more than 5 different pitches there but you get the idea.
Last edited by Atreideslegend at Mar 3, 2008,
#19
Next up in this thrilling debate, 4′33″

Seriously, though, I think the simplest and easiest definition of music is art using sound. It works.
#20
^Hence why 4' 33" isn't music. Besides I already made 4' 38" way long before Cage (I think that is the composer) did. One time I even turned my amp on, and didn't play for 8". Yeah, thank you. Your applause really isn't necessary.
#21
interesting netcopping here. no quantifiable opinions can pass the filter of political correctness without certain individuals panicking that they may be offended in the near future. speak only in vague generalities so later we can blame miscommunication and retain a veneer of 'civility.'

the sky is falling...
#22
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=l1WKmoUrDiQ

Absolutely NO harmony or melody here, whatsoever, and still music.

but the drum in in tune , the skin is tightened to be in tune it has a very clearly pitch , and tonality
Damien Redmond - "Grade 8 electric guitar" -"Grade 5 theory "
"Licentiate Diploma of the London college of music "
#23
Quote by Atreideslegend
What the hell is wrong with you people, within 1/2 a second of him playing i can hear two distinct notes; a treble note and rim tap both occupying different pitches. In it's entirety i count atleast 5 distinct pitches, can you say "pentatonic"???

Two different notes played to a distinct rhythm pattern = melody
Two notes existing within one frame of reference e.g. a key of sorts (the first tap denotes the frame of reference/key, the second it's harmonic counterpart or development) = harmony

You really really need to develop your ear man, obviously you have no idea of how music functions as a scientific and mathmatical undertaking. You're a closed minded fool if you think that because it's a drum it has only one pitch or 'note'. Can no-one on this forum just accept a definition that is staring them in the face?

Edit: Actually i lie, theres far more than 5 different pitches there but you get the idea.


There are different timbres being played on the drum. A drum is not considered to have pitches (excepting tuned rototoms, and other things of the like, which do not include snare drums). You are correct in saying that there are more than 5 different sounds, but they have undefinable pitches, and on a staff would be represented by different shaped notes (regular notes, triangular notes, x's etc..) on the same line as eachother, using a neutral clef (which denotes non-pitched instruments).

Anyways back to the topic at hand. I believe that anyone calling other music "noise" is that persons way of attempting to insult a band, that they dislike, when there is no other reason to dislike it. To me, noise refers to sounds which were not intended to be created, or are created as a byproduct of an intentional process. Music, on the other hand is sounds which were pruposely created with an artistic impression.
#24
Quote by damien guitar
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=l1WKmoUrDiQ

Absolutely NO harmony or melody here, whatsoever, and still music.

but the drum in in tune , the skin is tightened to be in tune it has a very clearly pitch , and tonality


Even if you say this, there is no harmony, you can argue it has a monotone melody. Regardless of this, my point was not whether or not that particular example can be argued to have melody and/or harmony, but rather that rhythm is the only thing which must be present in any sort of music.
#25
^Hence why 4' 33" isn't music. Besides I already made 4' 38" way long before Cage (I think that is the composer) did. One time I even turned my amp on, and didn't play for 8". Yeah, thank you. Your applause really isn't necessary.


Silence is sound as there is no real "silence". You're simply lacking certain sounds. If silence wasn't part of music there would be no need for rest notes or rhythm.

As for music having to be good, that is a very bad definition of music. If you're looking to apply an emotion to an art I'd suggest interesting or thought provoking. Cage's work was that, not because he was the first to be silent, but because he brought it to everyones attention. Pushing the limits, so to speak. Still bad to rely on, though, as any emotion is extremely subjective
#27
Quote by isaac_bandits
There are different timbres being played on the drum. A drum is not considered to have pitches (excepting tuned rototoms, and other things of the like, which do not include snare drums). You are correct in saying that there are more than 5 different sounds, but they have undefinable pitches, and on a staff would be represented by different shaped notes (regular notes, triangular notes, x's etc..) on the same line as eachother, using a neutral clef (which denotes non-pitched instruments).



You are confusing the concepts of notes and pitches. Pitch is not a technical music term it's a scientific term, it doesnt have to be an A or a C# to be of a pitch, i guarantee that if you measured each beat of the drum they would be different pitches that can be defined in terms of hz and are not "undefinable". It is pitch that forms melody and harmony, not note.
Last edited by Atreideslegend at Mar 4, 2008,
#28
Quote by Atreideslegend
You are confusing the concepts of notes and pitches. Pitch is not a technical music term it's a scientific term, it doesnt have to be an A or a C# to be of a pitch, i guarantee that if you measured each beat of the drum they would be different pitches that can be defined in terms of hz and are not "undefinable". It is pitch that forms melody and harmony, not note.


I realize that the different timbres of the drum may have different pitches, but these pitches (in the case of a snare) are negligible, as the timbre is what is important. A snare can be used in any song and will not sound out of key. Either way there is no harmony, as snare and rimclick do not make a chord.
#30
^Is that you, nate?

Errr harmony doesnt have to more than one instrument, its a relationship between two or more notes. An arpeggio has harmony though no two notes are played at the same time.

Dictionary.com entry for harmony:

Music
A)The study of the structure, progression, and relation of chords.
B)Simultaneous combination of notes in a chord.
C)The structure of a work or passage as considered from the point of view of its chordal characteristics and relationships.
D)A combination of sounds considered pleasing to the ear.

For your viewing pleasure...

So...yeah it does have harmony...

Every discussion in Musician Talk always boils down to people using different definitions. From your first post in this thread, I assumed you were using the same definition of melody and harmony as me (ie Melody: Notes after each other, Harmony: Notes at the same time). I based this assumption on the fact that you mentioned them as seperate points.

In your other posts you seem to switch to the viewpoint that melody and harmony are intertwined, which isn't untrue at all.

For your viewing pleasure, here is the dictionary.com entry for melody
a. the succession of single tones in musical compositions, as distinguished from harmony and rhythm.
b. the principal part in a harmonic composition; the air.
c. a rhythmical succession of single tones producing a distinct musical phrase or idea.


And I dont think of untuned drums as having melody or harmony in any significant way.
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#31
Music is noise and noise is music. What you consider music is purely perspective and a matter of opinion.
#32
Interesting thread. One very challenging assignment I had to do in one of my degree courses was to come up with a definition for music. I came up with something like this:

Any sound created or elicited by a human with the purpose of being aesthetic.

This rules out dogs barking and birds singing. There is no aesthetic intent. Dogs are warning others, and birds are trying to get laid. It rules out randomly generated sounds from a computer, because by virtue of being randomized, they are not elicited by a human.

Now, if a human can train a dog to bark on command at a signal, then it could be considered music because it is elicited by a human.

If I kick a cardboard box because it is at the bottom of the stairs and it makes a thump as I almost trip over it and break my neck, there is no intent of aesthetic, so it is not music. However, if I was to kick that box as a means of conveying a rhythm, then it would be music, because of my aesthetic purpose.

There are lots of artistic musical pieces that deliberately avoid the conventions of having a melody, having harmony, or even having rhythm.

In the case of John Cage's '4:33' - as I understand it - the *audience* was the instrument, and that 'audience instrument' was being played by the orchestra. By virtue of being silent when the crowd was expecting a musical composition, they were eliciting a response from the audience. The beauty was that, despite the music on the page being identical from day to day, the response from the audience (ie. the resulting sound made as a result of the orchestra eliciting a reaction from the audience) would vary from performance to performance. One day might be a lot of booing, another day a lot of laughing and some random insults. Another day, the discomfort of the audience expressed in questioning whispers. Yes, if an orchestra was to perform the piece, you could actually record the resulting sound and play it back. There is your composition.

By extension, if there is no instrument, it is difficult to play the piece. In rehearsals, the composition would have actually resulted in silence. Go figure..

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#34
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnD6h0XoN3o&feature=related - Pierre Henry was doing tape loop compositions in the '60's. One of his more famous ones was 'variations on a door and a sigh' that was just what the title suggested. Music? Noise?

Another goodie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KKE0f1FGiw&feature=related

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#35
To the person who defined music as something having melody, rhythm and harmony, no I disagree. Far too arbitrary. Those are elements but not limits.

The way I define music, similar to AP's, is as aural art.

This of course requires a definition of art itself, which is much more difficult and debatable. I will reference the imagists: one of their guiding slogans was "make it new". To me, this is art. The act of creation, conscious or not, is what is important, and art is the product of that act.

Anyway even if you don't like it, don't understand it, whatever, it's still music. And anything can be music if it's presented that way. I'm not saying it's all deserving of anything but that's personal. Decide for yourself what you want to listen to.
#36
Quote by Ænimus Prime
This contains no harmony, but I'm sure you agree it is music
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=LU_QR_FTt3E

Edit: OP, enjoy FOTB.


I am a cellist, and have this sheet music in front of me now, and I can clearly see double-stops: two pitches played at once. It is therefore a harmonization.

Not that this matters; just pointing it out.

Anyways...I believe the commonly accepted definition of music is "intentionally organized noise with the purpose of creating aural pleasure" or something along those lines.

Now, my opinion can cause me to claim certain things as not being music...but that's only because I have dislikes when it comes to certain types of noise organization.
#37
Quote by 5/4
I am a cellist, and have this sheet music in front of me now, and I can clearly see double-stops: two pitches played at once. It is therefore a harmonization.

Not that this matters; just pointing it out.

Anyways...I believe the commonly accepted definition of music is "intentionally organized noise with the purpose of creating aural pleasure" or something along those lines.

Now, my opinion can cause me to claim certain things as not being music...but that's only because I have dislikes when it comes to certain types of noise organization.


But if the creator of this noise "intentionally organized" it to "create aural pleasure", than, whether or not you think it is pleasureful, it still meets the basic criteria of music, being 1. noise 2. intentionally organized and 3. is designed to create aural pleasure. Your definition does not say that to be considered music the noise must fulfill its purpose of creating aural pleasure, it only says that it must have that purpose. Nobody should dismiss any music as noise because "they don't like it".
#38
"no one has the right to say their music is better than mne"-steve vai.
he solved our problems, it's all noise we just like some more than others.
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#39

This rules out dogs barking and birds singing. There is no aesthetic intent. Dogs are warning others, and birds are trying to get laid. It rules out randomly generated sounds from a computer, because by virtue of being randomized, they are not elicited by a human.


So birds, rain, whales, and wind are no longer music? You realize many cultures developed instruments to mimic that natural music?
#40
Quote by John2314andrew
The new wave of music that's spreading throughout the musical world has brought a whole new entourage of bands and singers that produce some songs without any pre-conceived notion of what is good and what is otherwise. These artists are the ones that utterly push me towards this question: What is the line between music and noise? How can this line be distinguished? Who are these "artists"? Does there music deserve to be heeded upon?


The line between music and noise is in many ways a matter of personal taste and opinion. I personally despise screaming vocals. I mean, I dont enjoy being screamed at in any situation, and I listen to music for enjoyment.....not to be annoyed. That being said, there is enough thought put into most of it to consider it music, whether I think its in poor taste or not.

The cool thing about music, is there is room for all kinds of expression. If I think something is garbage, the solution is a simple matter of choosing not to listen to it.
Quote by ouchies
Music is art, art is expression.

If someone considers this "noise" music to them, then so be it. Their music may sound like noise to you but to them, it is their art.


very good point

Quote by isaac_bandits
. Nobody should dismiss any music as noise because "they don't like it".


exactly.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Mar 5, 2008,
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