#1
Alright. I've had enough of making spam and idiotic threads, so I would like to adress an issue that i found was not really appropriate for the political thread, because it affects not only politicians, but every single one of us. Furthermore it is something that not only politicians can change, but every single one of us as well.

I'm talking, of course, about demographic development.

What is demographic develpment (DD), you ask? Well, demography is the science of a country's society. What it consists of, how many foreigners there are, how many male/female, old/young people there are. How many unemployed, how many employed etc. etc. It's basically a bunch of statistics.

Demographic Development is the shifting of a society's social structure. For instance, in my home country, Germany, we currently have too many old people. That's right, too many old people. This does not mean that we hate old people, it means that the ratio between old and young people is to high in favor of the geezers.
This is currently a problem because Germany is a well-fare state, which means that everybody pays taxes in a big pot, out of which retirement money, financial aid, unemployment money etc. is taken.
The big problem is that the few young and working people that Germany has have to support the larger older portion of society.
This change has forced new laws and changes to the well-fare structure, most of the changes in form of the young people paying more money, and the old people getting less.

Alright, so much for the introduction.

A more pressing issue seems to be the discussion concerning immigrants. no, not illegal immigrants, not mexicans hopping over the border, I mean immigrants in general.
Being an immigrant to Germany myself (American born, but have been living here for most of my life), I have experienced first-hand what it is like to move to a foreign country with nothing, and having to learn very many things in a short time.

In Germany, we have a major problem with immigrants, especially those that were originally intended to work in fields or factories such as Turkish or Polish families. Why are they a problem? Because they emigrated to Germany in masses. Through this, little communities of Polish or Turkish people were established, in which they could live in Germany under their own people.

THIS IS VERY BAD

You see, these communities of immigrants may make their lives very comfortable in the beginning, but the lack of contact to the rest of the country's culture and people is like poison to a country's society.
This is because if immigrants who live locked away in their little communities will never be INTEGRATED. This is a very big keyword here, INTEGRATION. A country cannot thrive with dozens of cultures living isolated from each other, immigrants need to be able to adapt to the country's culture.


Any thoughts about this matter? We're dealing with this in politics class right now, maybe some of you have interesting thoughts about this?
Last edited by CoreysMonster at Mar 6, 2008,
#3
He's not being (utlra-)nationalistic. Integration is indeed an important aspect. To say that they are poison to the society is a bit of a (racist) stretch though.
And what is more, there's been a bloody purple nose and some bloody purple clothes that were messing up the lobby floor. It's just apartment house rules so all you 'partment fools remember : one man's ceiling is another man's floor.
#4
Quote by smb
Wow...ultra-nationalistic Germans? That's an entirely new thing.



huh? ultra-nationalistic?

I'm saying that if a minority is living in a community completely isolated from the rest of the country, in what way is this going to benefit the country?


EDIT: i'm not saying immigrants are, i mean the lack of integration by these isolated communities. hm i'll rephrase that part.
#7
hmmm funnily enough I had to write a geography exam about exactly that today...
“If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions?”
- Scott Adams

No they don't, and UG is proof...
#9
Sounds pretty selfish of you to me. Who are you to impose on how other people want to live?
#10
Quote by smb
Sounds pretty selfish of you to me. Who are you to impose on how other people want to live?



i'm saying that in terms of language, and basic customs (such as not treating your wife like a commodity) people should have to adapt to a country, otherwise they are a burden to it.
#11
Quote by CoreysMonster
i'm saying that in terms of language, and basic customs (such as not treating your wife like a commodity) people should have to adapt to a country, otherwise they are a burden to it.

Do they trade wives on the open market? Are you sure that most of them don't have passable language skills? Sounds like you've judged these people already, and they've been found wanting.

How on earth are they a burden to you? What do they do that makes your life more difficult? Take the jobs natives don't want? Pay tax that wouldn't otherwise be paid if their jobs were unfilled? I really hope you have some seriously good reasons why you blame these people for "poisoning your country's society" when it sounds like your own views are the poison.
#12
Quote by CoreysMonster
i'm saying that in terms of language, and basic customs (such as not treating your wife like a commodity) people should have to adapt to a country, otherwise they are a burden to it.


I'm from Poland, and I have to agree that integration is the key...at least in terms of the language. But you also have to admit that the integration of immigrants depends also on the native people...so if Germans don't want to get along with Poles, then no wonder that they create closed communities. Calling them 'the poison' won't make them integrate with you!
#13
Quote by CoreysMonster
I'm saying that if a minority is living in a community completely isolated from the rest of the country, in what way is this going to benefit the country?
No, you didn't ask what benefit. You made a very negative value judgment.

Quote by CoreysMonster
EDIT: i'm not saying immigrants are, i mean the lack of integration by these isolated communities. hm i'll rephrase that part.
It still looks rather hostile:
Quote by CoreysMonster
but the lack of contact to the rest of the country's culture and people is like poison to a country's society.
Hitler would be so very proud of your choice of words.
Meadows
Quote by Jackal58
I release my inner liberal every morning when I take a shit.
Quote by SK8RDUDE411
I wont be like those jerks who dedicate their beliefs to logic and reaosn.
#14
Quote by smb
Do they trade wives on the open market? Are you sure that most of them don't have passable language skills? Sounds like you've judged these people already, and they've been found wanting.

How on earth are they a burden to you? What do they do that makes your life more difficult? Take the jobs natives don't want? Pay tax that wouldn't otherwise be paid if their jobs were unfilled? I really hope you have some seriously good reasons why you blame these people for "poisoning your country's society" when it sounds like your own views are the poison.


my views are poison for wanting people in a country to have good lives? these people are not going to be able to offer there children very good lives, they have no idea how to live in the foreign country, no idea how society works, how people think. They can't help their children, the children have to learn on their own. Unfortunately, many of these kids come from very poor families, and many of them turn to crime and violence. Especially the Turkish, who are raised in very violent families and are even encouraged by their own president to continue this way (the Turkish president held a speach in germany last year, saying that integration is a bad thing, that they should continue to live as they would in Turkey). I know so many people that have been assaulted by turkish youths, i have been assaulted by turkish youths. I also know many, many very nice Turkish people, but the fact is that an increasing amount of delinquent youths are Turkish or of turkish decent.

I am not saying that immigrants are poison. I actually enjoy the company of foreign people more than that of Germans, but if you have a minority living poor and isolated, unable to cope with the culture around them, nothing good can come of it.

i'm also not saying they should become germans. in no way do i think they should change their ways, but they should learn that women are not objects, for instance.

speaking of women, i had a crush on a turkish girl once. she would not go out with me or anybody else out of fear of her father. so yes, it has even indirectly influenced me.


EDIT: Jesus christ, what is wrong with you people? i'm no little hitler! stop going on about the "poison" part. i'm not saying we need to flush out immigrants, we need to find ways to help them learn the language and get to know the culture.

EDIT: And i DID NOT call immigrants poison. Reading is the key people, i said isolation of imigrants within a society is poison.


Quote by SomeoneYouKnew
No, you didn't ask what benefit. You made a very negative value judgment.

It still looks rather hostile: Hitler would be so very proud of your choice of words.



1. it was a rhetorical question, because the obvious answer is "in no way".

2. It looks hostile because this is a pressing issue, because instead of slowly adapting, foreign minorities are getting larger and more isolated.

3. DUDE, i said that "isolation of minorities is like poison", because on the long run, having to completely different cultures living side by side isn't going to work very well.


EDIT: i kinda have the feeling that you guys see "German" and "immigrant" and "poison" and don't bother reading very closely
Last edited by CoreysMonster at Mar 6, 2008,
#15
So basically this thread says "I got beaten up by a big scary immigrant and I asked out an immigrant girl and she turned me down and said it was because of her culture...so make them all adhere to my way of life or kick them all out!"
#16
I couldn't agree more with you. It really annoys me that people think that they can come to my country (England) and keep living the way they like. The recent proposal of having the Sharia (I think it was that) laws running side by side to accomodate foreign people is a prime example of things like this getting out of hand!

Foreign people should try and integrate with our society. These small sects of people are becoming more prevalent, and as such are causing more of a rift between UK nationals and foreign people. In the long run, I can only see this leading to parties like the BNP gaining more power, which would be a travesty to our country.

The question is, how do you combat this. Brits think they should be making the effort, after all, they are coming to Britain. The immigrants seem happy to live their own lives and don't try to integrate in to our society.

TBH, I think that the amount of immigration in to our country is really f*cking things up for us. Working class Brits are losing jobs to immigrants (hell, my work employs loads of Polish people to do the manual, warehouse jobs), and this is, I believe, is one of the foremost reasons to the uprising of the yob culture that we hear about so much on the news these days.

We are in a crisis, and it's the politicians that have the job to avert it. I almost certainly would vote Conservative (even though I've been a Labour fan for years) to combat this.
#17
Quote by smb
So basically this thread says "I got beaten up by a big scary immigrant and I asked out an immigrant girl and she turned me down and said it was because of her culture...so make them all adhere to my way of life or kick them all out!"



are you only reading every second sentance or something?
i said "i'm also not saying they should become germans. in no way do i think they should change their ways". i never said i wanted them to live the way i do. i think you're misunderstanding the concept of "integration" here. "integration" means having them know enough about the way we live to have them become a functioning part of our society, not forbidding them to be religious or eating turkish food or whatever.


Quote by saphrax

Foreign people should try and integrate with our society.


i disagree. i believe that the country should offer people who wish to come and live there ways to at least learn the language. The country should make more of an effort to help people who are already here learn. Yes, the will of the people who come must be there, but they also have to have the possibilty. which, especially if they come with little money, many people do not. if they are in a country with a lot of their kind, and the country offers them no help, who do they turn to?


Quote by saphrax

The immigrants seem happy to live their own lives and don't try to integrate in to our society.


see above, many CAN'T

Quote by saphrax

TBH, I think that the amount of immigration in to our country is really f*cking things up for us. Working class Brits are losing jobs to immigrants (hell, my work employs loads of Polish people to do the manual, warehouse jobs), and this is, I believe, is one of the foremost reasons to the uprising of the yob culture that we hear about so much on the news these days.


this is, IMO, the fault of the company and the government. the government should force companies to pay the same wages to workers, thus robbing them of any incentive they would have to hire immigrants willling to work for less money.
Last edited by CoreysMonster at Mar 6, 2008,
#18
Quote by CoreysMonster
EDIT: i kinda have the feeling that you guys see "German" and "immigrant" and "poison" and don't bother reading very closely
... and I kinda have the feeling you used an inflammatory term like poison intentionally, and purposefully.

The tones you use are not conciliatory. They're alarmist.


Boo freakin' hoo. There are issues that may lead to a less than ideal future for German society, as you now know it. Stop with the damned "sky is falling" routine and discuss POSITIVE directions and how the established German society can properly welcome these new people.
Meadows
Quote by Jackal58
I release my inner liberal every morning when I take a shit.
Quote by SK8RDUDE411
I wont be like those jerks who dedicate their beliefs to logic and reaosn.
#19
Quote by CoreysMonster

see above, many CAN'T


Yet they seem perfectly capable of leaving their own country, travelling hundereds, if not thousands of miles to get here, find somewhere to live, get on to our benefits system and eventually get a job, where they would surely meet English people.

I honestly do not believe that people can't do things (unless it's because of disability or other factors being detremental to their physical or mental health). You just need to try hard. I've done so many things in my life that required me to try hard, have a little determination and to pick myself up when things have gone wrong, it's just a case of having motivation.
#20
Quote by SomeoneYouKnew
... and I kinda have the feeling you used an inflammatory term like poison intentionally, and purposefully.

The tones you use are not conciliatory. They're alarmist.


What? from the first post on i've been trying to talk about integration, but everyone has been calling me racist, hitler and now alarmist.


Quote by SomeoneYouKnew

Boo freakin' hoo. There are issues that may lead to a less than ideal future for German society, as you now know it. Stop with the damned "sky is falling" routine and discuss POSITIVE directions and how the established German society can properly welcome these new people.


it's not just germany, dude, it's every industrially advanced country. and we are going to have to find ways to deal with the rising immigration rate.


I HAVE been trying to discuss positive directions, my keyword has been "Integration" from the first post! but first you were questioning why i thought integration was necessary, now you're AGAIN complaining about "poison", though i've already explained my point that poison was referring to the fact that if we let immigrants live isolated in different comunnities yaddayadda bad ending, i used it to enforce the idea of integration, because i know way too many people who just say "Auslaender raus!" (foreigners get out!), not only here in Germany but in the USA as well.


i mean, don't you agree that foreigners need to adapt to a certain degree to a country?
Last edited by CoreysMonster at Mar 6, 2008,
#21
Quote by saphrax
Working class Brits are losing jobs to immigrants

The only people who's jobs are at risk are the overpaid and underqualified. All an artificial job market to protect these people would do is increase costs, raise prices and reduce exports.
#22
Quote by saphrax
Yet they seem perfectly capable of leaving their own country, travelling hundereds, if not thousands of miles to get here, find somewhere to live, get on to our benefits system and eventually get a job, where they would surely meet English people.

I honestly do not believe that people can't do things (unless it's because of disability or other factors being detremental to their physical or mental health). You just need to try hard. I've done so many things in my life that required me to try hard, have a little determination and to pick myself up when things have gone wrong, it's just a case of having motivation.



hm, well consider this: you've just come from a country where human rights are non-existant, where torture is common practice and where lethal punishment is legal. wouldn't you feel comfortable in a country where you know that you are safe, protected and much more better off than you were?
#23
Quote by CoreysMonster
hm, well consider this: you've just come from a country where human rights are non-existant, where torture is common practice and where lethal punishment is legal. wouldn't you feel comfortable in a country where you know that you are safe, protected and much more better off than you were?


Of course I would! I'm not blaming them for leaving the hell they were in for somewhere else! I'd certainly leave. In that situation though, I'd (and this is just the way I am, perhaps not for them, I can't imagine the mentality of somebody who is used to hoping to be alive for the next day, week etc..) want to learn about the country, meet the people that have freedom to move about as they please and learn a whole new culture. Simply though, I have a real thirst for knowledge and I need to be challenged, perhaps they are just happy being alive.

In the end, what we really need here is somebody from such a background to post their views and opinions, and state why they do / do not wish to become "more like us". However, methinks they won't be making an appearance on the old UG...


On a side note, thankyou for this thread, I enjoy a good debate! TBH, I would push you in this debate regardless of my own opinion, simply because I really enjoy a good old debate!

EDIT:

Quote by smb
The only people who's jobs are at risk are the overpaid...


The people are not necesarily overpaid, they may be on minimum wages, but immigrants will work for less than that!
Last edited by saphrax at Mar 6, 2008,
#24
hm, well you also have to consider the fact that you have enjoyed a thorough education, whereas many people that come from other countries haven't had such a good education.


yeah, i like a good debate myself, and thought this topic would spark up more interesting posts than "hitler would like your choice of words"
#25
Quote by CoreysMonster
hm, well you also have to consider the fact that you have enjoyed a thorough education, whereas many people that come from other countries haven't had such a good education.


And for that I'll always be thankful!

Quote by CoreysMonster

yeah, i like a good debate myself, and thought this topic would spark up more interesting posts than "hitler would like your choice of words"


There will always be idiots...
#26
I've noticed in the UK that you tend to get these ultra traditional asian families who develop these little communities in big cities and towns where in that area they tend to be dominant in terms of numbers.

But with every generation more and more of the young people from these communities become integrated into our society and culture.

So I think over time these communities will probably diseminate into the larger UK society as a whole.
#27
Quote by freedoms_stain
I've noticed in the UK that you tend to get these ultra traditional asian families who develop these little communities in big cities and towns where in that area they tend to be dominant in terms of numbers.


It's called Bradford (or Bradistan for those who are fans of the film East is East...)!

Quote by freedoms_stain

But with every generation more and more of the young people from these communities become integrated into our society and culture.


That is one of the benefits of a multicultural schooling system. Although sometimes I wonder about schools. My lil sister goes to school in Leeds, and, well, she comes out with some really daft things regarding a multicultural society. Mind you, she isn't the brightest spark...

Quote by freedoms_stain

So I think over time these communities will probably diseminate into the larger UK society as a whole.


Assuming that no more "traditional families" come in to the UK from abroad I'd say.
#29
Quote by daeqwon10000
Only thing immigrants should get acustom to while going to a new country is langauge.


What about etiquette? Perhaps one of the most important things to know if you are in a foreign country, regardless of who you are and how long you are staying.
#30
Quote by saphrax
What about etiquette? Perhaps one of the most important things to know if you are in a foreign country, regardless of who you are and how long you are staying.


no.
#31
Quote by daeqwon10000
no.


I could flame you for that, saying that is a typical American POV, but I won't, I'm better than that. Just remember, next time you are in Mongolia, and you don't burp after a meal, I'll be sat here, smugly, saying, "I told you so!".
#32
Quote by saphrax
I could flame you for that, saying that is a typical American POV, but I won't, I'm better than that. Just remember, next time you are in Mongolia, and you don't burp after a meal, I'll be sat here, smugly, saying, "I told you so!".



hahah i was kidding, that is good, i just wasn't really thinking about that, just what I thought was the most important thing to get acustom too, without the langauge you can't do jackdiddilyshit
#33
Quote by daeqwon10000
without the langauge you can't do jackdiddilyshit


If you were British, you'd know how to get along in foreign countries when you can't speak the language. YOU JUST SHOUT TEH ENGLISH A LITTLE LOUDER!