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#1
hi guys another question from me

In a 12/8 time signature.. 1 eighth note (quaver)= 1 beat am i right? so 1 quarter note(crotchet).. isit equals to 2 beats? and you need 6 crochets to fill up 1 measure.. am i on the right track? and also 1 sixteenth note(semi quaver).. isit equals to half a beat?

still trying my best to get my theory right


thanks in advancce
#2
Quote by disillusia
hi guys another question from me

In a 12/8 time signature.. 1 eighth note (quaver)= 1 beat am i right? so 1 quarter note(crotchet).. isit equals to 2 beats? and you need 6 crochets to fill up 1 measure.. am i on the right track? and also 1 sixteenth note(semi quaver).. isit equals to half a beat?

still trying my best to get my theory right


thanks in advancce
The signature 12/8 represents compound time. In compound time, divide the upper digit (12 in this case) by three to arrive at the beats-per-measure figure (four in this case). I'm running out of time here, so the short answer is that 12/8 calls for four beats per measure, each beat consisting of a dotted eighth-note. Another way to think of this is four beats consisting of eighth-note triplets.

DA-da-da-DA-da-da-DA-da-da-DA-da-da
All things are difficult before they are easy.
- Dr. Thomas Fuller (British physician, 1654-1734)
Quote by Freepower
For everything you need to know - gpb0216.
#3
i always thought 12/8 was simply 12 8th notes to a bar, could be wrong though
#5
Quote by zac362
i always thought 12/8 was simply 12 8th notes to a bar, could be wrong though


In other words, correct, but over-simplified.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#6
Quote by zac362
i always thought 12/8 was simply 12 8th notes to a bar, could be wrong though


It is, but 12/8 is generally used as a compound time signature, which implies a specific subdivision of the notes.

so the short answer is that 12/8 calls for four beats per measure, each beat consisting of a dotted eighth-note.


I believe you mean a dotted quarter-note, which would equal three eighth-notes.

ONE-and-uh-TWO-and-uh-THREE-and-uh-FOUR-and uh
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#7
Quote by Archeo Avis
I believe you mean a dotted quarter-note, which would equal three eighth-notes.
Quote by gpb0216
so the short answer is that 12/8 calls for four beats per measure, each beat consisting of a dotted eighth-note.
You are absolutely correct. The beat unit in 12/8 time is the dotted quarter-note. Good catch!
All things are difficult before they are easy.
- Dr. Thomas Fuller (British physician, 1654-1734)
Quote by Freepower
For everything you need to know - gpb0216.
#8
^G, I have a question for you. I have a song that's mostly in 4/4, but one lick takes up 6 beats. Would it be correct to write it as 4/4 and then 2/4, two measures of 3/4, or 6/4? The drums play standard 4/4 the whole time, as if the riff were 2 measures of 4/4, except they just repeat after 6 beats rather than 4 or 8 (actually, I think it's a 2-beat pattern repeated over and over and over, but a real drummer could spice it up I suppose).
#9
Quote by bangoodcharlote
^G, I have a question for you. I have a song that's mostly in 4/4, but one lick takes up 6 beats. Would it be correct to write it as 4/4 and then 2/4, two measures of 3/4, or 6/4? The drums play standard 4/4 the whole time, as if the riff were 2 measures of 4/4, except they just repeat after 6 beats rather than 4 or 8 (actually, I think it's a 2-beat pattern repeated over and over and over, but a real drummer could spice it up I suppose).
That's a tough call without hearing the riff, but what you're describing sounds like alternating 4/4 & 2/4, at least to me. Can you post a sound file?
All things are difficult before they are easy.
- Dr. Thomas Fuller (British physician, 1654-1734)
Quote by Freepower
For everything you need to know - gpb0216.
#11
I'd say 4/4with 2/4 added where necessary. That last bar really looks more like a 4+2 than a 3+3.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#13
Quote by gpb0216
You are absolutely correct. The beat unit in 12/8 time is the dotted quarter-note. Good catch!


That's actually not correct. You guys are overcomplicating things. The top number dictates how many BEATS in a measure (in this situation, 12) and the bottom number dictates what value a beat is (in this situation , an eight note). That counting actually is actually just a simpler way to count 12 eighth notes.
#14
Quote by imnobedhead
That's actually not correct. You guys are overcomplicating things. The top number dictates how many BEATS in a measure (in this situation, 12) and the bottom number dictates what value a beat is (in this situation , an eight note). That counting actually is actually just a simpler way to count 12 eighth notes.


12/8 is a compound time signature, and as such, it subdivided a different way. It does not have 12 beats per measure, it has 4. Each of those beats consists of a eighth note triplet.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#15
Quote by Archeo Avis
12/8 is a compound time signature, and as such, it subdivided a different way. It does not have 12 beats per measure, it has 4. Each of those beats consists of a eighth note triplet.


You don't understand what a beat is. It has 12 beats. A common way to simplify it is to pretend that it's 4/4 with triplets but that really is a simplification. Look it up in a music book or Wiki or something.
#16
Quote by imnobedhead
You don't understand what a beat is. It has 12 beats. A common way to simplify it is to pretend that it's 4/4 with triplets but that really is a simplification. Look it up in a music book or Wiki or something.


Yes. Let's consult wiki...

Compound time signatures

In compound time signatures, each main beat is divided into three equal parts. Compound time signatures are distinguished by an upper number which is commonly 6, 9 or 12. The most common lower number in a compound time signature is 8, meaning the time is beaten in eighth notes (quavers).

Unlike simple time, however, compound time uses a dotted note for the beat unit. Consequently, the upper and lower numbers in compound time signatures do not represent the number of beats per bar and the beat unit.

The upper and lower numbers in compound time signatures need to be treated as follows:

* To determine the number of beats per bar, divide the upper number by three. For example, in 6/8, there are 2 beats per measure. The pulse in a compound 6/8 will have two dotted quarter-note (crotchet) beats, and each beat will subdivide into a group of three eighth notes.

* To identify the "beat unit" (i.e. which type of note represents one beat), multiply the note value represented by the lower number by three. In 6/8, the lower number (8) represents the note value of an eighth note. Multiplying that note value by three gives a unit of a dotted quarter note, or 3 eighth notes.

For example, 12/8 time would be counted: One two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve (or alternatively, one and uh two and uh three and uh four and uh).

In compound time, the beat unit is always a dotted note value. The most common compound time signatures are 6/8, 9/8 and 12/8, denoting two, three and four dotted quarter note beats per bar.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#17
Quote by Archeo Avis
Yes. Let's consult wiki...


Pwned. For anyone who didn't understand that, you can compound any time signature that is a multiple of 3.

P.S. That isn't even the only way you can divide the beats.
#18
Quote by imnobedhead
Pwned. For anyone who didn't understand that, you can compound any time signature that is a multiple of 3.

P.S. That isn't even the only way you can divide the beats.


Right. You do realize that the article supported everything I've said in this thread?
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#19
i think its confusion with using x/8..

Time signatures can be "simple" or "compound".

Time signature consist of two notes, one on top of the other. The 'bottom' note refers to what type of beats are used e.g. 4 on the bottom means crotchet beat counts and 8 on the bottom mean quaver beat counts. The 'top' number refers to how many of the bottom number. 2/4 means 2 crotchet beats. 3/8 means 3 quaver beats.

(...)

In compound time signatures, each main beat is divided into three equal parts. Compound time signatures are distinguished by an upper number which is commonly 6, 9 or 12. The most common lower number in a compound time signature is 8, meaning the time is beaten in eighth notes (quavers).


although it also goes into compount signatures which is the included mention of 6/8 9/8 and 12/8. i think this is where the confusion arises.
#20
Quote by Sabaren
i think its confusion with using x/8..


although it also goes into compount signatures which is the included mention of 6/8 9/8 and 12/8. i think this is where the confusion arises.


There is no confusion. Imnobedhead has demonstrated over and over again that he has no idea what he's talking about. He's here only to antagonize.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#21
7/8, 3/8, this is why i posted those are simple time sigs but they are counted with quavers. 3/x is how many are counted, x/4 is whats being counted (crotchets in this example), there can be x/2 and x/16 and such.

BUT

compound time sigs are x/8 in multiples of 3. they are different than say, a 13/8 time signature (which is simple).

im not too keen on the specifics of time sigs but thats how i understand it given experience and what wiki is saying.

my question is, if you go 4/4 to 12/8, someone said it makes them dotted notes, but i also heard triplets? from understanding they are 2 different things. does it just translate the quarter notes into dotted 8th notes? in that case its basically changing how you are counting it as opposed to 3/4?

and how do you know if something would be say 7/4 or 7/8, ive written stuff that people say would be 15/8.
Last edited by Sabaren at Mar 14, 2008,
#22
Quote by Sabaren
my question is, if you go 4/4 to 12/8, someone said it makes them dotted notes, but i also heard triplets? from understanding they are 2 different things. does it just translate the quarter notes into dotted 8th notes?
What do you mean?

Here is 12/8.

#23
quavers are as long as they would be in 4/4?

thats my question. looks like they are but i dont know GP that well..
#24
^Well, no, because the quarter note doesn't get the beat. You could have six quavers in one bar of 12/8 and they would be felt as quarter note triplets.
#25
see thats where its confusing, basically if you are coming out of 4/4 you are just using dotted quarter notes instead? (thus dividing them up into 3 8th notes that feel like triplets?).

also wiki says:

In music, compound meter, (chiefly British variation) compound metre, or compound time, is a time signature or meter in which each measure is divided into three or more parts, or two uneven parts (as opposed to two even parts, called simple metre), calling for the measures to be played with principal and subordinate metric accents (the latter called subaccents), causing the sensation of beats.


so would 7/8 fall under this too.. say dividing up as |_|_| |_|_|_| or |_|_| |_|_|_| |_|_| and such?


heres what im talking about


British rock musician Sting uses the 9/8 time signature on his 1996 song "I Hung My Head" from the Mercury Falling album. He uses it by playing 8 eighth notes (in effect, using a normal 4/4 time signature), just followed by a single eighth note. Thus, the division becomes: 4/8+4/8+1/8=9/8.

Compound meter divided into three parts can be transcribed into musically equivalent simple meter using triplets. Likewise, simple meter can be shown in compound through duples.

adding an 8th note at the end of 4/4 is not the same thing as switching 4/4 into triplets.. a triplet has a different length than 3 8th notes.
Last edited by Sabaren at Mar 14, 2008,
#26
Open up PT/GP and enter in these two things.

1. 4/4 time, the tempo is Q=120. Enter 8th note triplets. Have a few listens.

2. 12/8 time, the tempo is Dotted Q=120. Enter 12 8th notes. It should sounds the same.

It is annoying to use the triplet notation for an entire song, so when triplets are constantly used, the song will usually be written in 12/8 rather than 4/4.


I do not consider 7/8 to be compound time.
#27
Quote by Galvanise69
But how is 7/8 a simple time signature?
You count it One and Two and Three and Four One and Two and Three and Four. You're not playing triplets.

Quote by Galvanise69
what are you going to call it?
What's wrong with calling it "seven eight" time?

Quote by Galvanise69
Why would you count 3/8 in chrotchets?
You wouldn't. There would be one triplet in the measure, equal to a dotted quarter note. The dotted quarter note would get the beat.
#28
I would call 7/8 simple time.

I'll assume that a quaver is an 8th note and a crotchet is a quarter:

In 12/8 time, the dotted quarter note gets the beat. That's why in 12/8 songs, you hear the drummer go "Da da da Snare da da Da da da Snare da da." The 8th note does not get the beat in compound time, as compound time is simply a simple meter played with triplets. You don't count 12/8 "one two three four five six seven eigth nine ten eleven twelve;" that would be ridiculous, but that's what it would be if the 8th note got the beat.
#32
Just the same way that you can divide 7/8 One two three Four five six Sev / One two three four Five six Sev / One two three Four five six Sev/ Etc. you can divide 12/8 in to equally ludicrous divisions. Compounded time signatures are ones that have been divided to feel like a series of triplets. You can compound any time signature that is a multiple of 3. It's not the only way the beats can be divided though. One two three four five Six sev eight nine ten Eleven twelve.
#33
I always thought 7/8 was considered complex time, a combination of compound and simple time.

7/8 can be either 2+2+3/8 or 2+3+2/8 or 3+2+2/8

It would be counted as:
One and Two and Three and uh (2+2+3/8)
One and Two and uh Three and (2+3+2/8)
One and uh Two and Three and (3+2+2/8)

Is this not correct?
#35
Quote by bangoodcharlote
^That's a question for G.


Thats what I thought, but I didn't want to be as rude as to not accept other people's opinions.
#36
Quote by Galvanise69
Yeah, we got told today in music, thats its usually counted simply 1 2 3 4 5 6 7.

I tried the way you had them being counted, there good, and its simply my inability, but I just have a lot of trouble counting the uhs, and not stuffing it.



Apparently its neither simple or compound, its classed as irregular.


Complex, not irregular.
#37
Quote by Galvanise69
Why? Does it really matter?

Arent they just terminology, they mean the same thing after all.

Its like saying, whats the difference between maj7 and M7



It doesn't really matter, but its easier for people to understand when there is only ONE name for any given chord/scale/etc...
#38
Quote by Galvanise69
Fair enough, but I think as long as we live, there will be different terminology around.

From now on though, for simplicities sake, Ill just refer to time sigs, that are neither simple or compound, as complex.

7/8 11/8 ect.

What are more complex time sigs?

I could probably come up with moer if I had time, but im in school now..


Any time signature involving a prime number would be considered complex, my favorite being 5/4.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#39
Quote by Archeo Avis
Any time signature involving a prime number would be considered complex, my favorite being 5/4.


It does not even need to be a prime number. 10/8 is considered complex. 9/8 can be complex, if grouped 2+2+2+3 etc... rather than 3+3+3.

The only qualifier for complex time signatures is that they contain both simple and compound beats.

Where does 1/2 and 1/4 time fit in?
#40
I sure wish gpb0216 would post again. He's probably in over his head is all. (gpb0216, if you do respond, actually put something about music instead of just a list of things you used to do)
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