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#1
im starting to find more and more that the music around me influenced me because, well, its all ive ever heard my whole life, its all i know, and im starting to find i cant relate with whats 'typical' to hear in america.

4/4 time sigs
ionian and aeolian keys
single melodic passages over typical progressions
if harmonized, straight 3rds the whole way
rare use of tuplets, or any in debt theory for that matter
verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-chorus and similar variations
polyrhythms only for the hell of it to sound hard to play
pentatonics

i think i would just do better with polyphony, everchanging key sigs, complex rhythms and even polyrhythms.. you get the picture

but.. where? yeah classical music has it but, i have no clue where to start with that. ever time ive ever listened to classical music, i understand it, but i dont 'get' it, or you could say feel it. the format is just wrong. neo-classical guitar.. no, i just dont see how sweeping arpeggios and playing in various modes is that far off from run-of-the-mill music. symphonic metal comes somewhat close but still sounds 'cookie cutter', bands like nightwish.

ive heard some pretty technical and complex bands from death metal and progressive metal, ive heard some very melodic bands say, melodic metal, ive heard a good variety and some of said genres are in the right direction just not 'there'

ive heard about tons of lesser used theory thats used more in classical but i never can find any resource as to how to apply it, or how it has been applied.

music just seems dead. everybody is just playing what everyone else is playing because thats all the world seems to know nowadays. music needs a revolution.

thoughts? suggestions?



edit: FINE I EDITED THE TITLE. i had no way to describe what i was talking about so i picked what i thought was the best fit. in hindsight MODERN music might have fit better and i figured people would understand that from the context. what i am talking about is all the tendencies to play the same crap as everyone around them and nobody being original nowadays. nobody putting any thought into music. happy now? i changed the freakin title.
Last edited by Sabaren at Mar 14, 2008,
#2
Try checking out some of the more obscure branches like Folk Metal..
A couple of good Folk Metal bands to check out are:
Korpiklaani
Finntroll
Eluveitie (Inis Mona is an awesome song!)

Those 3 sound very different from each other, so if you don't like one the others may still appeal...
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#3
Maybe you can try some jazz?

Charlie Parker, Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Pat Metheny. Try those names for a start.
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#4
4/4 time sigs
ionian and aeolian keys
single melodic passages over typical progressions
if harmonized, straight 3rds the whole way
rare use of tuplets, or any in debt theory for that matter
verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-chorus and similar variations
polyrhythms only for the hell of it to sound hard to play
pentatonics


You listen to a single genre and then generalize all of Western music? How about listening to any jazz, classical, or progressive piece over written.

Here you go. Something more complex for you.
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#5
archeo: ive heard bits and pieces of many genres ranging from progressive _____ to various branches of punk to rock (old/new) to metal (just about every variation) to country to, well the only things i havent heard much of really are classical or jazz.

metal is notorious for stepping outside of the boudries of mainstream appeal, its often compared to classical music in approach.

classical, as i said, i want to get more into it. i said that because its outside of the 'norm' of music.

jazz ive actually considered studying somewhat. ive not heard enough to get an idea of what its truly about.

elven: see above about jazz

leper: ive heard some folk metal, turisas comes to mind, ive heard some others too, kinda but same as metal its different but still isnt 'there'.
#6
Though it didn't work out, I'd really recommend classical music. Try some romantic era stuff; Chopin I readily recommend, his music is rich and emotive, maybe some of his stuff purely on piano (most of it is), I'm sure you can download it or get a CD somewhere.

Also exploring some contemporary classic like Ligeti or Zdeněk Vřešťál, (he's a Czech pianist my Czech piano teacher has got me into recently, very good stuff, though hard to find!)
#7
Quote by Sabaren
im starting to find more and more that the music around me influenced me because, well, its all ive ever heard my whole life, its all i know, and im starting to find i cant relate with whats 'typical' to hear in america.



there is a pretty simple solution: start listening to something else.
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#8
I heard an orchestra recently play a composition by a guy called Penderecki called "Threnody to the Victims of Hiroshima". The piece is over 40 years old, but it has a lot of fun stuff, like microtones and string players bowing behind the bridge. Just wanted to recommend it while it was fresh in my mind.
(Slightly outdated) Electronic and classical compositions by m'self: Check 'em out
#10
I can't understand what you're upset about. You should listen to music based on how it sounds, not how difficult it is to play.
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#11
^those are his objections. he isnt complaining about the simplicity of it, just that it is common and he is tired of hearing it.

anyway, some math rock might work for you, but it might not. try it and see.
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#12
why listen to it.. because i love listening to metal, when it comes to writing it it just feels lacking. its mostly the theory behind it, i know theres more to music than what ive heard and im sure its out there. one thing ive been curious about is temperament, equal temperament sounds in tune to me but i know its not the ONLY way.

ill check out some of the composers listed but even listening to them i still dont know how to fully say, integrate the minor scales (ascending/decending, harmonic) like they did.

and am i the only one that feels so strongly that music not only has rules, but is developing 'norms' and writing techniques that are 'safe'.


i dont have objections with any type of music i love a good variety of music, when it comes to writing all i know is all ive heard growing up which is typical rock based music, is what im upset about, and the fact that EVERYONE templates off of it and ive not heard one piece that goes much out of the norm. THATS what im upset about.

correction and response to the link: dream theater YES i forgot about them, ive been meaning to get more into them ive heard their stuff, its quite good. a lot of progressive or math or technical bands only sound complex to be hard to play, not complex to be deep. DT does the latter obviously.
Last edited by Sabaren at Mar 10, 2008,
#14
rap is a big BIG no no to mention to me.. heh..

electronic genres in general for that matter, but EBM has some stuff that does it for me, industrial as well. wumpscut can be quite unconventional in a musical way.
#15
Listen to some progressive rock problem solved.

Bands like Dream Theater, Pink Floyd. They've got:

Time Modulation
Key Modulation
Odd Signatures
Philosophical lyrics
Progressive construction - Verse 1 [solo] Verse 2 [solo], or even instrumentals
Stories - Concept albums
Experiments - i.e: intended feedback sounds, seashore sounds, birds, bell and all that crap
Advanced guitar solos
Fantastic rhythms, not just strummed chords but improvisations over chords and more
Keyboard solos

and that's not all. go listen to them yourself =D
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#16
Though it may be hard, try to avoid such generalizations. Music is far from dead. Anyway, so as to be productive, check out some Nobuo Uematsu. He definitely has some classical influence but plays things far from it as well. You can purchase some of his music on Itunes, or just check Youtube out if you want some sort of sample beforehand.
#17
I think it's your use of the term "western music" that makes me cringe a little. But other then that misused term, I do get what you're saying. But You say you've listened to progressive - which is a genre entirely based on going against everything you've listed. So, quite obviously, is Jazz. And well, actually a horde of classical music since the 1700's. So if you don't really dig those genres...hey no problem. There's music for everyone. Just don't throw in the towel cause you think you've listened to enough styles of music...you haven't.

And you definately sound like someone who has been exposed to way too much pop music. I don't mean pop like Britney Spears. There's pop to every form of genre(including classical, jazz, progressive). If you need music enough, you'll find what you're looking for.

Also, if there is a slight tone of resentment, It's cause I believe every generation has great artists that go unnoticed because people(including famous artists) are too busy bitching about how much current music sux. So the resentment isn't specifically aimed at you
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#18
eh i couldnt really think of a term for the type of music i was referring to, mainstream didnt quite fit it since a lot of what i listen to isnt 'mainstream', i wouldnt even consider it pop necessarily. but i will say, i grew up in america, where everything was all hair metal and thrash then grunge and alternative, a lot has punk influence somewhere, but almost all of it outside of classical and jazz is irritating. jazz and classical, well i just havent much heard anything that catches my ear. eternal tears of sorrow is worth mentioning though, its not too outside of the norm as far as scales and time sigs and such, but they have a more symphonic feel to them.

but seriously, im the only one thats been concerned about how so much music has become so cookie cutter, even new generes (within past 10 years) still follow many cliches.

what about counterpoint, ive read somewhat about the principal behind it but the applications are still a bit fuzzy to me. i think i dont just want to listen to classical music but understand it.

and yes i recognize the resentment, ive found good artists in even the most hated of genres. its not necessarily the rare genius artists that pop up, its the tendancy to write what people want to hear. ive had singers tell me 'you need to be more repetitive and catchy' and.. why? you have no idea how many people say 'well soandso band is making this much money they must do something right', tbh i dont care that ACDC plays what they play and have made tons of money, im not going to play rock to sell albums, im going to play what *I* write.
#19
Quote by Paquijón
Though it may be hard, try to avoid such generalizations. Music is far from dead. Anyway, so as to be productive, check out some Nobuo Uematsu. He definitely has some classical influence but plays things far from it as well. You can purchase some of his music on Itunes, or just check Youtube out if you want some sort of sample beforehand.


nobuo is one of my favorite composers ever, i LOVE his music. as for electronic music dude, you're ruling out a kickass genre and theres tons of stuff out there that doesn't stick to incredibly standardized formats. check out aphex twin, hell nine inch nails is a big influence on me and his stuff goes from industrial to electronic, his remixes are dance club-ish and his album "still" is classical in nature. if i could be half the musician as trent reznor i'd be f#cking happy.
#20
Quote by z4twenny
nobuo is one of my favorite composers ever, i LOVE his music. as for electronic music dude, you're ruling out a kickass genre and theres tons of stuff out there that doesn't stick to incredibly standardized formats. check out aphex twin, hell nine inch nails is a big influence on me and his stuff goes from industrial to electronic, his remixes are dance club-ish and his album "still" is classical in nature. if i could be half the musician as trent reznor i'd be f#cking happy.


Agreed, I still get teary when I hear Aeris' theme. I have this game called Lost Odyssey, and his music in it is phenomenal.

Don't dismiss his music because its for video games, his music is incredible.
#21
as i said theres a good bit of electronic music i like, to be honest a lot of what i write is based heavily off of what ive written in reason.
#22
May I recommend you some Ravi Shankar? A sitar virtuoso playing Indian ragas is a compelling contrast from "western" 12 tone music.
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#23
you should get into jazz, ravi ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JjrWxun46M ), and reggae. It was a breath of fresh air back when I was a similar situation as you. Also try the heliocentrics ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnyLTpXCr00 ), they have a ton of influences.
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#24
well first off i was looking for technique and theory and how to apply it not 'i want to listen to something different', theres some good ideas listed though.

but on the topic of ideas, carl orff has some crazy good stuff i like, very powerful.
#25
Quote by psychodelia
I heard an orchestra recently play a composition by a guy called Penderecki called "Threnody to the Victims of Hiroshima". The piece is over 40 years old, but it has a lot of fun stuff, like microtones and string players bowing behind the bridge. Just wanted to recommend it while it was fresh in my mind.

That Penderecki piece is awesome - a really good example of musical expressionism at its best, in my opinion. I'd definitely second that.

All the recommendations above are good, but maybe try some non-Western music too? Eastern harmony is completely different, so it should give you some ideas.

Not all Eastern scales can be reproduced on Western instruments as they use intervals less than a semitone, but some can - if I can find it, there's a massive list of scales to apply to your guitar playing somewhere.

EDIT: Here's the bastard, should keep you going for a while if that's what you're looking for
http://www.dolmetsch.com/pianochords.htm

Jazz harmony is definitely worth experimenting with too.
Last edited by TheNthDimension at Mar 11, 2008,
#26
How can you say you like every genre of music and then totally shoot down rap? Not all of it is Lil Jon and tha eastside boooiz

Try listening to the Roots for some amazing rap, particularly the cd's Do You Want More?!?!!?! and Things Fall Apart. They mix really good lyrical rap (not about da bitches and da hoes) and jazz music, it's really great (and they all actually play their own instruments).

But for classical, try listening to Stravinsky's The Rite of Spring. It's a ballet (don't let that scare you) about human sacrifice in pagan Russia. It sounds very scary and foreign, and it's the type of sound metal people try (unsuccessfully) to copy.

If that doesn't float your boat then try Bela Bartok. He's like Stravinsky, but 10x weirder. Check out his string quartets for some seriously freaky and interesting music.
#28
Nevermore
Cynic(jazz metal, highly suggest them, check cd 'focus')
Dream Theater
Meshuggah(if you want insane amounts of odd time sigs and polyrhythms)
Tool(odd time sigs)
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#29
why listen to it.. because i love listening to metal, when it comes to writing it it just feels lacking.


jazz and classical, well i just havent much heard anything that catches my ear.


It sounds like you have a conflict between “liking what you wish you didn’t, because it is simple and cookie-cutter” and “not liking what you wish you did, because you can appreciate it musically”. That is fine, but I think we can all agree that music other than the “cookie-cutter” stuff that you refer to does indeed exist. You just may not like it, or at least the limited sample that you have encountered.
#31
why listen to it.. because i love listening to metal, when it comes to writing it it just feels lacking.

there are no rules to writing metal, or any other genre for that matter. if most metal is too simple for you, write metal that's more complex. You seem to have a large knowledge of theory. It shouldn't be too hard to do that.
#32
Quote by Spamwise
there are no rules to writing metal, or any other genre for that matter. if most metal is too simple for you, write metal that's more complex. You seem to have a large knowledge of theory. It shouldn't be too hard to do that.

Yeah, something like Meshuggah isn't exactly simple.
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#33
I may get shot down, but I've recently been fed up with Western music as well. I'm in a band that might as well be called O.A.R. 2, we play ridiculously simple progressions, verse same as chorus, 4/4, lyrics with the word "girl" in them, etc.

Now, as much as I hate to say it, I've sort of stereotyped metal as being too BR00taLz for me. Actually, I'm listening to Stream of Consciousness by Dream Theater from one of the youtube links posted above and I really like it. The keyboards are orgasmic. Wait... just switched to a live "Instrumedly"... it's getting too BR00taLz for me now...

But I digress.

I've started listening to The Mars Volta recently, and I just find Omar's compositional skills incredible. The entire Bedlam in Goliath album (Or what I've heard of it so far) makes incredible use of the harmonic minor, which I suppose I've never quite experienced before (I enjoy Johnny Greenwood's use of it in Radiohead as well), but that's definitely been a band which has resparked my love for music, in general. So unorthodox, and yet so expressive.

Sorry, I tended to ramble, but I wish you the best of luck in your search for new music.
#35
again i say, its not what i like listening to or dont like listening to, ive even enjoyed some rap. the problem i have is it feels like i keep trying to write something that doesnt exist, most likely because i havent heard anything outside of typical scales and rhythms.

those 'eastern harmonies' mentioned, yes im curious about. ive even seen 50 some fret guitars to experiment with temperaments. one thing ive been curious about even is a custom tempered guitar that, yes might be suited for a certain key, but goes outside the norm of the standard chromatic scale. one thing i have noticed is that for a major third interval, it still sounds in tune if the major third is flattened about half a step, sounds generally more in tune than the usual temperament. im guessing this has to do with the flaws in equal temperament..

dream theater - yes ive been getting into them here and there, good stuff
meshuggah - not simple, but never come off too soulful either, their way of going technical is the other direction of how i see myself going
tool - see above but i do like a lot of their rhythms
nevermore - god loomis is a god i swear
cynic - i hear too much about them i have yet to hear them much

but complex rhythms and polyrhythms, they can have use but a lot of when i hear them is the same as when i hear sweeps and such in songs, they sound like their only purpose for being there is to make the song sound harder to play.
#36
Quote by ouchies
Agreed, I still get teary when I hear Aeris' theme. I have this game called Lost Odyssey, and his music in it is phenomenal.

Don't dismiss his music because its for video games, his music is incredible.


yeah, nobuo uematsu is definately one of the greats. i recommend also tetsuya shibata who did the music for devil may cry, really dark and atmospheric one minute and the next, music you can kick ass to :P
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#38
Quote by TheNthDimension
That Penderecki piece is awesome - a really good example of musical expressionism at its best, in my opinion. I'd definitely second that.


oh i know this, well not the piece but the 'horrifying concept' behind it. its (i think) micropolyphony, its like a huge cloud of shifting dissonant chords.
#39
this is the thinking that causes new genres

so you cant find any bands that are "there" for you, make your own band and bring it there, it will be extremely origional, maybe to the point of avant garde, the style will spread, slowly, fast, i dunno

just play the music you see is "there" yourself, thats all you can do if you cant find any other bands of the nature
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