#1
Not sure if this is the right section, but here we are.

Can anyone explain what playing a 5/4 riff over a 4/4 beat would be? Im new to music theory and I cant work out this would mean.

If its complex to explain, nevermind lol
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#3
They mentioned Fredrik Thordendal of Meshuggah doing it in last months Total Guitar.
Gear:
PRS Tremonti SE with PRS USA Tremonti pickups
2001 Ibanez RG470
Peavey Bandit 112
Fender Superchamp XD
USA Jackson SL1
#4
Quote by lefthandman9876
you cant play a 54 riff over 44 timing, that just doesnt work

learn your theory


Wrong, it's a poly-rhythm.

There's an article on it, quite recent, give it a go. It's pretty helpful.
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#5
Quote by lefthandman9876
you cant play a 54 riff over 44 timing, that just doesnt work

learn your theory

Yes you can. It will just all be written in 4/4. Learn yours


1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-1
1-2-3-4-5-1-2-3-4-5-1-2-3-4-5-1-2-3-4-5-1


^ If you can make out what that is saying, basically you can see the two riffs/timings/whatever starting in sync, going out of sync, than coming back into sync on the first beat again after 5 bars.

EDIT:
Quote by Nerdo-sez-bo
Wrong, it's a poly-rhythm.

There's an article on it, quite recent, give it a go. It's pretty helpful.

That would be another way of doing it, using quintuplets. That's a lot harder to write

Basically you would play 5 notes in the same time as 4 beats in the time signature. If that makes any sense...
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#6
Quote by loonyguitarist
Yes you can. It will just all be written in 4/4. Learn yours


1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-1
1-2-3-4-5-1-2-3-4-5-1-2-3-4-5-1-2-3-4-5-1


^ If you can make out what that is saying, basically you can see the two riffs/timings/whatever starting in sync, going out of sync, than coming back into sync on the first beat again after 5 bars.

That's the best way of explaining it really

Quote by lefthandman9876
you cant play a 54 riff over 44 timing, that just doesnt work

learn your theory

No, you
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#7
Ah yeah I get it now, thought it would be more complex than that, cheers chaps
Gear:
PRS Tremonti SE with PRS USA Tremonti pickups
2001 Ibanez RG470
Peavey Bandit 112
Fender Superchamp XD
USA Jackson SL1
#9
There is more than one way to play this way, but here's the easiest way that I know.

1    2    3    4
12345123451234512345
1   2   3   4   5  

Think of quintuplets over each beat (5 notes per beat). Since you want to play 5 notes over 4 beats instead of 5 notes per beat, you're going to play every fourth quintuplet, so if you start on the 1 beat, you would play the 1st and 5th quintuplets over the 1 beat, the 4th quintuplet over the 2nd beat, etc.

This is roughly equivalent to playing quarter notes in 5/4 time over a piece in 4/4 time. Using this same method, you should try to figure out how to play eighth notes, triplets, and sixteenth notes in 5/4 time over 4/4 time. It gets pretty in depth but if that's the kind of music you want to create, it's worth it.
Last edited by titopuente at Mar 15, 2008,
#10
The idea is that after the least common multiple of 5 and 4 (20 beats, or 5 measures of 4/4, 4 repeats of the 5/4 riff) that the 5/4 riff's "one" will be back with the 4/4's "one."

Looney's chart explains it well.
#11
The challenge there is dealing with phrases that are five bars long and trying to make it sound natural when most people are almost innately programmed to think in four bar phrases.

CT
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I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

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#13
Can anyone explain what playing a 5/4 riff over a 4/4 beat would be?

i may be miss interpreting the answers here , but from what im am gathering they are suggesting you play the 5/4 at about 1 "5th" faster than the 4/4 bar so a bar of 4/4 at 120bpm would last for the same as .....
(120 divided into 4 = 30 x 5 = 150bpm )
a bar of 5/4 at 150bpm .

anyway theres another way ,
play a 5 bar progression in 4/4 time
and over the top try a 4 bar solo in 5/4 !
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#14
Quote by damien guitar
anyway theres another way ,
play a 5 bar progression in 4/4 time
and over the top try a 4 bar solo in 5/4 !
That's what we mean, at least Chris and me.
#15
5/4 over a 4/4 time signature means playing 5 quarter notes in the span of 4 quarter notes, at least thats what I gathered from my music fundamentals, it has nothing to do with a progression. So basically in the time it will take you to play a regular 4/4 riff you have to play your 5/4 riff(with that extra quarter note)

4/4=4 beats, quarter note gets the beat

5/4= 5 beats quarter note gets the beat.

something like that i think. correct me if i'm wrong
#16
There's a track from Gorillaz rightfully named 5/4. It's from their first record. It features exactly what you're talking about in case you want to hear an example.

Quote by fendabenda
5/4 over a 4/4 time signature means playing 5 quarter notes in the span of 4 quarter notes, at least thats what I gathered from my music fundamentals, it has nothing to do with a progression. So basically in the time it will take you to play a regular 4/4 riff you have to play your 5/4 riff(with that extra quarter note)

4/4=4 beats, quarter note gets the beat

5/4= 5 beats quarter note gets the beat.

something like that i think. correct me if i'm wrong


The bold section is wrong. The 5/4 part will require an extra beat, and so the 4/4 part will keep going as the 5/4 lags behind. Of course, they will eventually come back in to sync. This creates some really cool phasing.

You're right about the quarter note gets one beat stuff, but it isn't quite as simple. It takes a while to explain, so I'll just tell you to look up simple, compound, and hybrid meter.
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Last edited by Muphin at Mar 15, 2008,
#17
as far as i'm aware, and this seems to be the best way, you play at the same tempo and have the riff change its alignment with the beat as you play. i seem to remember something along these lines is done in radiohead - let down.
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#18
Quote by Muphin
There's a track from Gorillaz rightfully named 5/4. It's from their first record. It features exactly what you're talking about in case you want to hear an example.


The bold section is wrong. The 5/4 part will require an extra beat, and so the 4/4 part will keep going as the 5/4 lags behind. Of course, they will eventually come back in to sync. This creates some really cool phasing.

You're right about the quarter note gets one beat stuff, but it isn't quite as simple. It takes a while to explain, so I'll just tell you to look up simple, compound, and hybrid meter.

Now looking over that post I kind of contradicted myself, yeah your right about the extra beat I was thinking of eight note triplets in 4/4 time as opposed to 6/8 were they are normal. I know thats confusing but yeah I just got mixed up.

I know simple, and compound time signatures, and this wouldn't apply to them, but I am not familiar with hybrid meter though, so maybe thats where im lacking the understanding, but yeah,

5/4 time would lead to some cool sounding stuff especially when everything syncs up together again.
#19
The intro and the chorus of My Wave by Soundgarden is in 5/4. The only thing is, IIRC, it is still in 4-bar phrases.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#20
im goint to give you a exercise to learn polyrhythms.

take your hand, and with your other hand tap out a 4/4 rhythm, using all four fingers like so:

1index finger 2 middle finger 3 ring finger 4 pinky finger

then, while doing this, say the phrase:
" ta ka de ma" so its:

1index finger 2 middle finger 3 ring finger 4 pinky finger
Ta Ka De Ma

Then tap your hand on the back of your other hand while saying ta and ka, and then with the front, for de and ma. Do this at double time. So:

1index finger 2 middle finger 3 ring finger 4 pinky finger
Ta Ka De Ma
1Back of Hand 3 Front of hand
Ta Ka De Ma

Then, back of hand for ta ka de and ma, then front of hand for all four. In Quadruple timeSo:

1index finger 2 middle finger 3 ring finger 4 pinky finger
Ta Ka De Ma
1Back of Hand 3 Front of hand DOUBLE TIME
Ta Ka De Ma
1Back of Hand 1 Front of hand Quadruple time
Ta Ka De Ma Ta Ka De Ma

Now take that all, and put an extra syllable (te) in place of ma, but then ma falls on the downbeat of the start, and then keep the same pattern going. This wont challenge you to much. but then once youve gotten that down, you get the accent pattern (TA ka DE ma) or (ta KA de MA (backbeat) and see if you can keep it going.
#22
Quote by lefthandman9876
you cant play a 54 riff over 44 timing, that just doesnt work

learn your theory


Actually, smartass, you can. It's called polyrhythm. Listen to some Tool, and Meshuggah, fool.
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#23
Am I correct in saying this?

When a 5/4 riff is played over a 4/4 drum beat, the quarter notes and beats per minute will be the same length, but the bar lines WILL NOT line up, except on every fifth bar of 4/4 and every fourth bar of 5/4.
#26
For a 5/4 riff over 4/4 drum beat (i'm assuming here), you'll have to play the riff 4 times and the drum beat 5 times. as others have said, "20" is the least common multiple. People have a hard time wrapping their heads around this concept because they usually hear songs in 4/4 only like most radio pop, and they're more into counting the time than actually listening to what they are playing. I know this because my bassist has a hell of a time when we try to introduce odd time signature guitar riffs, but want the drums to remain constant. We want the time modulation, but he's stuck counting one two three four one two three four rather than listening to the phrasing/melody/riff/musical idea and he's bitching that it "doesn't line up." That, and he's counting measures of his predetermined length rather than counting the phrases that are being played.

End of the rant for today.
#27
Quote by blackreign
For a 5/4 riff over 4/4 drum beat (i'm assuming here), you'll have to play the riff 4 times and the drum beat 5 times. as others have said, "20" is the least common multiple. People have a hard time wrapping their heads around this concept because they usually hear songs in 4/4 only like most radio pop, and they're more into counting the time than actually listening to what they are playing. I know this because my bassist has a hell of a time when we try to introduce odd time signature guitar riffs, but want the drums to remain constant. We want the time modulation, but he's stuck counting one two three four one two three four rather than listening to the phrasing/melody/riff/musical idea and he's bitching that it "doesn't line up." That, and he's counting measures of his predetermined length rather than counting the phrases that are being played.

End of the rant for today.


You are correct.

Another reason why this does not get used much, is due to that notation gets messy. Either 5/4 will be implied using accents, while other parts play in straight 4/4 (or vise versa), or the bar lines will not line up.
#28
^I think you would write everything in 4/4, but have the riff repeat every 1.25 measures instead of every measure. Does this make sense or should I post a picture?
#29
I think a polyrhythm is when you fit a measure of 5/4 into the time of 4 beats. I suppose quarter note triplets would then be considered a measure of 6/4 played in the time of a measure of 4/4. I may be wrong on this, so I'd like some clarification.

Your "5/4 over a 4/4 meter" is exactly what we're talking about, though.
#30
Quote by bangoodcharlote
^I think you would write everything in 4/4, but have the riff repeat every 1.25 measures instead of every measure. Does this make sense or should I post a picture?


That makes perfect sense. I was saying that notation is confusing like this, as the pattern is less apparent. My other alternative, would have been to write one instrument with a different time signature, in which the bar lines would not line up, which would be very confusing, and would not work in most (if any) notation programs
Last edited by isaac_bandits at Mar 16, 2008,
#32
Quote by bangoodcharlote
I think a polyrhythm is when you fit a measure of 5/4 into the time of 4 beats. I suppose quarter note triplets would then be considered a measure of 6/4 played in the time of a measure of 4/4. I may be wrong on this, so I'd like some clarification.


I agree. The above examples seem more like syncopation to me, since you're basically just shifting the emphasis onto different beats.
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#33
Quote by bangoodcharlote
You meant time, not key signature.


That I did good catch. I shall edit it now.