#1
I've been thinking.

Shock horror.

What with the current debate in the UK about nationalism, there has been the suggestion from an eminent government minister that we are compelled to swear allegiance to the Flag.

This strikes me not only as un-British, but also rather authoritarian.

But hang on, doesn't the US do this?

And isn't the US one of the most culturally mixed countries in the world?

Same with Australia.

Therefore, is flag-waving inversely proportional to the strength of "national identity"?

Your thoughts, please
#2
I thought it was to swear allegiance to the Queen =/

We discussed it in general studies yesterday. Personally, I think it's stupid. What's the point in making children do something they won't understand? It's time to stop being so up our own arse with being unique and British.
The will to neither strive nor cry,
The power to feel with others give.
Calm, calm me more; nor let me die
Before I have begun to live.

-Matthew Arnold

Arguments are to be avoided; they are always vulgar and often convincing.
#3
Just another stupid scheme to try and regain some national pride in a country that's gone down the shitter.

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#4
Quote by Dinkydaisy
I thought it was to swear allegiance to the Queen =/

We discussed it in general studies yesterday. Personally, I think it's stupid. What's the point in making children do something they won't understand? It's time to stop being so up our own arse with being unique and British.

I believe Britishness is important, personally. It distinguishes us from being anyone else, certainly. And uniqueness is of import, as well.One needs to feel as if one belongs. But I agree, one should never take an oath one does not understand.

And I believe you are correct. It is to "the Queen and the Union Flag".
#5
people should be learn to like England, and then want to be patriotic, rather than forcing them to swear allegiance.
#8
Quote by Kumanji
I believe Britishness is important, personally. It distinguishes us from being anyone else, certainly. And uniqueness is of import, as well.One needs to feel as if one belongs. But I agree, one should never take an oath one does not understand.

And I believe you are correct. It is to "the Queen and the Union Flag".

And why is it so important to be distinguished from everyone else? It's not necessary to feel as if one belongs at all, it should be more important to have a nation accepting of other cultures opposed to a nation of flag-waving patriots.
The will to neither strive nor cry,
The power to feel with others give.
Calm, calm me more; nor let me die
Before I have begun to live.

-Matthew Arnold

Arguments are to be avoided; they are always vulgar and often convincing.
#10
I dont mind swearing allegiance to the flag, even if its not my thing, but **** allegiance to the royal family.
#11
Wow. That sounds kind of well....pointless. I mean we have to do it here, but no one really does it.
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#12
Quote by Dinkydaisy
And why is it so important to be distinguished from everyone else? It's not necessary to feel as if one belongs at all, it should be more important to have a nation accepting of other cultures opposed to a nation of flag-waving patriots.

Ah, you persuasive thing, you...

Surely tolerance and being accepting of other cultures is part of our national identity?

And I'm definitely not advocating flag-waving patriotism. There is a difference between that and preserving national identity.
#13
Yeah, if they want us to like it they should do something to make it less **** rather than tell us to swear alligience. Which was what Hitler did - force people to show how much they loved his regiem.
#14
You're right, it's incredibly un-English to make people swear allegiance to the country... Just talk to 1700's America, Ireland....
Demolition hands.... Got 'em!
#15
Quote by Kumanji
Ah, you persuasive thing, you...

Surely tolerant and being accepting of other cultures is part of our national identity?

And I'm definitely not advocating flag-waving patriotism. There is a difference between that and preserving national identity.

It should be part of our national identity, but personally, I don't think it is. We're a racist and jingoistic country.

'Preserving national identity' shouldn't come with making children make pledges they don't understand to an outdated figurehead. Why should people from other nations abandon their own national identity for the sake of Britain's? Because that's what will happen if children have to swear to a flag. We don't have an empire anymore, and identity shouldn't be so important.
The will to neither strive nor cry,
The power to feel with others give.
Calm, calm me more; nor let me die
Before I have begun to live.

-Matthew Arnold

Arguments are to be avoided; they are always vulgar and often convincing.
#16
You know, in America, we do it an average of five times a week.
Once you get to middle school, though, no one says it anymore.
It sounds like a dumb idea to make you pedge allegience to anything. Expecially the Royal faimly, which I understand has almost no power (sorry if I've been misinformed). It just sounds stupid to me.
I like Fall Out Boy.
That is all.
#17
Flag waving -> nationalism -> fascism

A bit simplified (I want to stress this part ), but in the end that's kind of the truth isn't it?
#18
Quote by Dinkydaisy
It should be part of our national identity, but personally, I don't think it is. We're a racist and jingoistic country.

'Preserving national identity' shouldn't come with making children make pledges they don't understand to an outdated figurehead. Why should people from other nations abandon their own national identity for the sake of Britain's? Because that's what will happen if children have to swear to a flag. We don't have an empire anymore, and identity shouldn't be so important.

I completely agree with you on your second point. I do not advocate swearing allegiance. You should believe yourself British, not swear yourself British.

I'm not sure how far the whole of Britain is xenophobic. Doubtless there is an intolerant element, but I wouldn't be confident in saying it's dominant.
#19
Quote by Kumanji
I completely agree with you on your second point. I do not advocate swearing allegiance. You should believe yourself British, not swear yourself British.

I'm not sure how far the whole of Britain is xenophobic. Doubtless there is an intolerant element, but I wouldn't be confident in saying it's dominant.

I don't see why you should 'believe yourself British'. I'll agree that having a sense of national identity helps an individual feel they have a place in the world, but if it came to declaring myself British for the sake of being British I wouldn't. Pride of being a certain nationality simply leads to at best a country full of arrogant dicks, at worst a fascist state. We all know what happened to Germany and Italy.

I'm assuming it varies from place to place. I live in a pretty racist area, where Asian communities get called 'Paki street' and the Daily Mail's a popular paper.
The will to neither strive nor cry,
The power to feel with others give.
Calm, calm me more; nor let me die
Before I have begun to live.

-Matthew Arnold

Arguments are to be avoided; they are always vulgar and often convincing.
#20
I don't really mind doing it but half of the people in my school are British Indian and I don't think they really care about the Queen, and neither do I. I'd quite happily swear allegiance to my country but I think it's a stupid idea. Then again I've done it many times while i was in scouts :P
#21
Quote by Dinkydaisy
I don't see why you should 'believe yourself British'. I'll agree that having a sense of national identity helps an individual feel they have a place in the world, but if it came to declaring myself British for the sake of being British I wouldn't. Pride of being a certain nationality simply leads to at best a country full of arrogant dicks, at worst a fascist state. We all know what happened to Germany and Italy.

I'm assuming it varies from place to place. I live in a pretty racist area, where Asian communities get called 'Paki street' and the Daily Mail's a popular paper.

Hmm. I could well be wrong, but I don't think the comparison with Germany and/or Italy stands up. Germany was predisposed to a strong authoritarian leader, after the vacuum left by the Kaiser was only partially filled by the Weimar democracy.

To be honest, my pride in being British has taken quite a hit recently, due to the utter debacle of the Middle East...
#22
Quote by Kumanji
Hmm. I could well be wrong, but I don't think the comparison with Germany and/or Italy stands up. Germany was predisposed to a strong authoritarian leader, after the vacuum left by the Kaiser was only partially filled by the Weimar democracy.

To be honest, my pride in being British has taken quite a hit recently, due to the utter debacle of the Middle East...

Bah, I was only using them as worst case, melodramatic scenarios
But national pride never leads to good. Equal respect for all cultures and countries is what people should be aiming for. Britain is part of the EU - swear allegiance to the EU flag.

I can't really discuss your second point, as I don't take pride in being British, I'm just embarrassed that we've had stupid leaders.
The will to neither strive nor cry,
The power to feel with others give.
Calm, calm me more; nor let me die
Before I have begun to live.

-Matthew Arnold

Arguments are to be avoided; they are always vulgar and often convincing.
#23
I don't really understand what you all mean by swear allegiance?
But i never really call my self British, i always calls myself Welsh as i prefer people to call me and as i call other people from Wales.
Not really into the British thing and don't like being identified that way.
#24
Quote by Dinkydaisy
Bah, I was only using them as worst case, melodramatic scenarios
But national pride never leads to good. Equal respect for all cultures and countries is what people should be aiming for. Britain is part of the EU - swear allegiance to the EU flag.

I can't really discuss your second point, as I don't take pride in being British, I'm just embarrassed that we've had stupid leaders.

I'm beginning to look more and more fascist by the second...

The EU is destroying our agriculture and we risk losing control over our own economy...

It's not an ideal situation, whether we stay in or not.

And I agree, our leaders have acted against our national interest, and indeed against our national identity.

Parliamentary democracy is not acting in the country's interest in general, I think.
#25
Quote by Kumanji
I'm beginning to look more and more fascist by the second...

The EU is destroying our agriculture and we risk losing control over our own economy...

It's not an ideal situation, whether we stay in or not.

And I agree, our leaders have acted against our national interest, and indeed against our national identity.

Parliamentary democracy is not acting in the country's interest in general, I think.

I'm afraid politics isn't my forte, so I can't argue on that
The will to neither strive nor cry,
The power to feel with others give.
Calm, calm me more; nor let me die
Before I have begun to live.

-Matthew Arnold

Arguments are to be avoided; they are always vulgar and often convincing.
#28
Quote by Kumanji
I've been thinking.

Shock horror.

What with the current debate in the UK about nationalism, there has been the suggestion from an eminent government minister that we are compelled to swear allegiance to the Flag.

This strikes me not only as un-British, but also rather authoritarian.

But hang on, doesn't the US do this?

And isn't the US one of the most culturally mixed countries in the world?

Same with Australia.

Therefore, is flag-waving inversely proportional to the strength of "national identity"?

Your thoughts, please

I would refuse to swear an oath to the flag. I have a union flag in my room on my wall, and I usually have one hanging out the window as well. My friend has one on a flagpole in his garden. I love this country, but I'm not going to go all American and "pledge allegiance" to it.

Quote by Dinkydaisy
I thought it was to swear allegiance to the Queen =/

That's a better idea. I swear allegiance to the Queen but that's different than doing it to a flag.
I hope it doesn't seem, like I'm young, foolish, and green.
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Y siempre
Y para siempre
#29
nationalism helps cultural diversity, which is only a good thing.

As long as it isnt taken too far, and people learn to respect or at least tolerate other peoples cultures, having pride in your culture makes the world a more interesting place.

I come from an International background, so I can speak from personal experience.
#30
It's been said before, but nayional pride comes from having a nation to be proud of. And while there are a few things we do well(like teenage pregnancy, STI rates and losing at sports), there's nothing that makes us think "F*ck you, rest of the world, we kick your sorry asses at <insert worthy activity here>".
Except maybe moping over how we used to be awesome and rule a large portion of the world.
#31
Quote by BlackLuster
That's a better idea. I swear allegiance to the Queen but that's different than doing it to a flag.



I dont want to swear allegiance to some inbred old tart.


I'd much rather do it to the flag.
#32
^ +200ish

Quote by hazzmatazz
youmakemesmile...

Quote by sebastian_96
Today I stole a girls tampons for being such an annoying bitch.





MUFC


My love for you
Is like a truck
Berserker.
#33
but in the US it dates back to the period where all of the people that were from other countries wanted to be known as American. so they did mostly have a sense of national pride.

now it doesnt seem like a lot of them care. its kind of sad.
#34
Quote by bassist12
You know, in America, we do it an average of five times a week.
Once you get to middle school, though, no one says it anymore.
It sounds like a dumb idea to make you pedge allegience to anything. Expecially the Royal faimly, which I understand has almost no power (sorry if I've been misinformed). It just sounds stupid to me.


? I'm a senior in high school and my classes still stand and recite the pledge of allegiance. To me it means honoring the history and bloodloss of the country, in all manners, so I see no particular fault in any other country having a similar honorary institution.
My God, it's full of stars!
#35
Quote by bassist12
You know, in America, we do it an average of five times a week.
Once you get to middle school, though, no one says it anymore.
It sounds like a dumb idea to make you pedge allegience to anything. Expecially the Royal faimly, which I understand has almost no power (sorry if I've been misinformed). It just sounds stupid to me.

i had to do all the way through high school, and i just graduated last year. And on a side note, since you mentioned the royal family, i think it is ridiculous and demeaning what rules you have to follow if you meet them.
i need to hear some sounds that recognize the pain in me, yeah.
#36
It is deeply ironic that having no cultural identity makes us mindless drones, yet too much blind faith engendered through reciting the oaths of allegiance also makes us mindless drones.

The Middle Path, people.
#37
Quote by abs_n91
Swearing alleigance the flag makes you like the Australians, Americans and Israelis and whatever.
You blindly swallow their lies and become another one of their mindless drones who think they're always right and can't accept their immorality when it comes to major world issues.
While we're allowed to think for ourselves we've become an intelligent, smart nation who's young people can grow up and excel in what they like, and argue when they see something's wrong.


Idiot.
My God, it's full of stars!
#38
Quote by 12epi345
i had to do all the way through high school, and i just graduated last year. And on a side note, since you mentioned the royal family, i think it is ridiculous and demeaning what rules you have to follow if you meet them.

Technically, NONE. You won't get transported to the Colonies for not bowing/using the correct form of address.
But you won't be invited back for tiffin either.