#1
so, I'm just wondering what this is called so I can explain it better to a friend. When I play I don't really use scales, I just use a key as a shape that covers the entire fretboard and when I play the tonal centre of my playing will shift from note to note naturally. Say I'll be in Bb, the centre will shift from G to C over time, like say the centre is at G, I could end the song at any moment just by hammering on a G and it would sound like I know what I'm doing, but later on it will shift to C and the G won't work anymore. I'm guessing what's hapenning is some kind of scale modulation or something, but help would be appreciated. I've blown many a person a way with my random modulations but I'd like to know what's going on.
#3
I mean being in the key of Bb but the song wants to resolve on the note of G or certain forms of a G chord, but later somehow it's no longer G but a C. Not only resolving to a G, but the way I play I make sure that certain patterns are formed or else it just sounds like rambling, like nonsensical shredding. So I form rythmic/melodic/harmonic patterns that will revolve around G, but then after playing for a while, I'll find it's changed to C, like I'll notice the centre is no longer at G, but all the while I'm in the key of Bb. Well not always, sometimes I'll modulate to another key, but somehow keep the tonal centre on that same note, it all just happens naturally but I'd like to know what's going on so I can control it.
#4
Quote by farcry
I mean being in the key of Bb but the song wants to resolve on the note of G or certain forms of a G chord, but later somehow it's no longer G but a C. Not only resolving to a G, but the way I play I make sure that certain patterns are formed or else it just sounds like rambling, like nonsensical shredding. So I form rythmic/melodic/harmonic patterns that will revolve around G, but then after playing for a while, I'll find it's changed to C, like I'll notice the centre is no longer at G, but all the while I'm in the key of Bb. Well not always, sometimes I'll modulate to another key, but somehow keep the tonal centre on that same note, it all just happens naturally but I'd like to know what's going on so I can control it.
Record yourself and post the recording.


BTW, when you say that you're playing in Bb but resolving to G, that means that you're in G minor.
#5
Quote by farcry
I mean being in the key of Bb but the song wants to resolve on the note of G or certain forms of a G chord, but later somehow it's no longer G but a C. Not only resolving to a G, but the way I play I make sure that certain patterns are formed or else it just sounds like rambling, like nonsensical shredding. So I form rythmic/melodic/harmonic patterns that will revolve around G, but then after playing for a while, I'll find it's changed to C, like I'll notice the centre is no longer at G, but all the while I'm in the key of Bb. Well not always, sometimes I'll modulate to another key, but somehow keep the tonal centre on that same note, it all just happens naturally but I'd like to know what's going on so I can control it.


I will assume that you are playing in relative minors, and only know major scales. Since you probably listen to mainly minor music, it makes sense that the notes should "want" to resolve to G, rather than Bb, as G is minor and Bb is major. Also your phrasing can change the tonality alot. When you say it sounds like it should resolve to C, that is probably because you have modulated into Cm, which is a similar key to Gm, in that Cm's key signature has only one more flat than Gm. You probably started playing an Ab instead of A, which made the key modulate from Gm to Cm without you thinking about it.
#6
He could also be playing over a Gm Cm progression, except the progression is in his head.

If you can imply a chord progression with your lead WITHOUT any backing, that's an accomplishment.
#7
I make sure to never hit that Ab when in this certain jam, just as a means of opening my horizons. I think it has something to do with the chords, in another jam/half-song I've got it starts off with an Am shaped chord and arpeggiates around until I shift the shape into a Dm then a D at the tempo break, then I use the shape of the bottom 3 strings while playing that D and shift it all around the fretboard while playing in either key C/G depending on where it is. It's a certain technique I discovered using geometric patterns on the fretboard as opposed to actually knowing what I'm doing from a theoretical standpoint. Like, I know if I create a geometric pattern symmetrically, even if I don't know what it's going to sound like and there are some notes out of key, it generally sounds pretty decent, if that makes any sense at all.

It's just frustrating when a fellow guitarist will go "woah... what the hell was that, how did you write that, teach me" and I can only respond with, "shapes... and symmetry I suppose".

edit: until I wrote this post I had never even really thought about it, which is very weird, I'm now wondering if I've got an abnormal way of doing things.
Last edited by farcry at Mar 20, 2008,
#8
You're doing something cool and actually quite difficult for most people. You're implying a chord progression with your lead by using arpeggios. For instance, your progression goes Am Dm G. Over each chord, you're playing chord tones and arpeggios that let the listener know that "it's time for Dm now," even if you have no backing.

I would still like to hear a recording, even a crude (poor quality, not vulgar :p ) one.
#9
Quote by bangoodcharlote
You're doing something cool and actually quite difficult for most people. You're implying a chord progression with your lead by using arpeggios. For instance, your progression goes Am Dm G. Over each chord, you're playing chord tones and arpeggios that let the listener know that "it's time for Dm now," even if you have no backing.

I would still like to hear a recording, even a crude (poor quality, not vulgar :p ) one.


I'll record the one where I shift around between Am and D later, but I've got a crapload of schoolwork so it'll be quite a while until I can get it up, but I'll try and do it today.
#11
I do have one of me testing the recording stuff up, but pay no heed to that, it's not what I was talking about, that was me dicking around. anyway, gotta catch the bus.
#12
Sonny Rollins (in particular, most serious jazz players do it now) would practice simply by playing songs without accompaniment and fully implying the changes. Best way to learn a set of changes.


Anyway one "level" of concept in a jazz tune is the motion of the key centres. most are fairly standard; up or down fifths and seconds. Coltrane changes use major thirds. Most of the other intervals are also used if you look for them.

Anyway building a line that shows the change of two chords within a centre (a ii-V, typically) is one thing to master. Building a line through a centre shift is more difficult. Zooming out and playing the key centres is the basis for a lot of neat substitution and is thus fairly ambiguous - you need a good grasp of playing the specific, notated changes to make it sound like you aren't rambling. Since movement isn't provided, you need to create it yourself.
#13
Still...solo lead guitar that establishes tonal centers is mighty impressive. It's up there with a lot of great virtuoso players.
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#14
Quote by KryptNet
Still...solo lead guitar that establishes tonal centers is mighty impressive. It's up there with a lot of great virtuoso players.
Aye. it shows a great understanding of harmony and a good ear.
#16
I don't want to take away from anyone's accomplishment, and it certainly is an accomplishment - Rollins is a legend, has been for 50 years.

here's a incredible clip though - Miles isn't completely unaccompanied but the piano is very minimal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mji4nAk_8ZY&feature=related

If you can genuinely HEAR the changes, you're well on your way. If you can hear it, you can play it. And if you can only hear the changes when you listen to them, you don't know them well enough. Learning to hear is difficult, but the rest is just unlocking your latent technique.
Last edited by Nick_ at Mar 20, 2008,
#17
Quote by one vision
I think it's due to subconscious chord changes.
That's exactly what it is, but you can also train yourself to consciously imply chord changes.