#1
new to music thoery and i have a quick question.
does every mode have a major and minor?
#2
What? Elaborate.
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#4
I think what you're trying to ask is if they have a major/minor tonality. If so, yes, they all do. Aeolian is the actual minor scale, the Ionian is the actual Major. Now, the Dorian, for example, has a Minor tonality, so, it sounds like a minor scale, just with different intervals. Same with all the others.

I hope that answers your question somewhat, if not, ask me to explain further if you need me to.
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#6
No. Ionian, Lydian, and Mixolydian are major. Aolian, Dorian, Phrygian, and Locrian are minor.
#7
Quote by werty22
No. Ionian, Lydian, and Mixolydian are major. Aolian, Dorian, Phrygian, and Locrian are minor.


Locrian is diminished.
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#8
Quote by Archeo Avis
Locrian is diminished.

I know that a triad built on the seventh degree of a major scale is diminished, but my Music Theory book from school says Locrian is minor.
#9
Quote by werty22
No. Ionian, Lydian, and Mixolydian are major. Aolian, Dorian, Phrygian, and Locrian are minor.
Yeah you're right. I would *think* this comes from the classical thinking/emphasis on the third being either major or minor.
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#10
Quote by KryptNet
Yeah you're right. I would *think* this comes from the classical thinking/emphasis on the third being either major or minor.



maj 1-3-5
min 1-b3-5
dim 1-b3-b5

so Locrian is dim
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#11
^^^^true, Locrian is the only one with a diminished 5th but it's not considered that in classical theory. That there was emphasis on the 3rd is the only way I can make sense of classical theory not categorizing Locrian as a diminished scale.
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#13
Quote by branny1982
A minor scale has a minor 3rd.

Locrian has a minor 3rd, therefore it is minor.

A diminished scale has a b3, b5, bb7, so Locrian is not diminished.... is it?

surely it is technically 'half-diminished'

i guess you're right about half-diminished. just how mixolydian is dominant.

either way it's minor just because of the b3rd. a diminished chord is minor cuz of the b3 but a minor chord isn't diminished.
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#14
Quote by branny1982
A minor scale has a minor 3rd.

Locrian has a minor 3rd, therefore it is minor.

A diminished scale has a b3, b5, bb7, so Locrian is not diminished.... is it?

surely it is technically 'half-diminished'


I believe it is considered a diminished mode largely because of the fact that the tonic chord for the Locrian mode is diminished. However, the most common application you'll see for the Locrian mode is over a half-diminished seventh chord (m7b5).
#15
Quote by branny1982
A minor scale has a minor 3rd.

Locrian has a minor 3rd, therefore it is minor.

A diminished scale has a b3, b5, bb7, so Locrian is not diminished.... is it?

surely it is technically 'half-diminished'


well its a diminished "type" of scale. Just like lydian is a Major "type" of scale.

your calling it a minor based soley on the 3rd, but using the 7 as the disqualifier for it being diminished......without considering the 5th.

Also keep in mind that half diminished is a specific type of diminished, not a specific type of minor.

Locrian has 1,b3,b5 so its not minor.... its diminished

it's a diminished type of scale... not THE diminished scale, just like dorian is a minor type scale... not THE minor scale.

but you are correct in that Locrian is compatible with a half diminished 7th chord.... not a fully diminished 7th.
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#17
it is a half-diminished scale techinically. just like mixolydian is dominant. dorian, minor 7th.

i still say it's minor based soley on the b3. but kinda like you said it's not THE minor scale nor would you play it over a minor chord.
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#18
Quote by metal4all
it is a half-diminished scale techinically. just like mixolydian is dominant. dorian, minor 7th.

i still say it's minor based soley on the b3. but kinda like you said it's not THE minor scale nor would you play it over a minor chord.



well its technically the locrian mode.... which is a diminished "type " of scale. meaning it has 1,b3,b5.

I've never heard of it being referred to as the "half-diminished scale"....but I suppose it could be. I have heard of mixolydian being referred to as the "dominant" scale.... so I could see calling locrian a "half diminished scale". ( but have never encountered that term in books or in common usage)

calling it minor though, is misleading. recognizing the "type" of scale for each mode is helpful for knowing where to apply it. calling it minor doesnt achieve that. diminished does... and specifically "half diminished" does as well.
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#19
yeah, i agree.
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#20
I think calling it half-diminished is the most appropriate, since calling it diminished could cause confusion with the diminished scale.
#22
Quote by branny1982
I think we should just call it Locrian!


Thats a great idea!!!
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#23
So...I'm still curious. Why would they classify locrian as minor? Cause I'm guessing it comes from Gregorian times no?
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#24
Quote by Galvanise69
Locrian is a minor key correct.

Its like saying a seagull is a bird correct. But so are finches, and parrots, a seagull is very different to them.

So locrian is a minor mode, but there is more to it than simply minor. If you go further into it, you see it is diminished, but not fully.

So, in short, you wouldent purposfully use a locrian mode over a minor chord. I dont think at least, my knowledge isnt that good..


It's not uncommon to establish the tonality with a minor chord, and use other chords in the progression to imply the mode. It's really the only way you can use it over anything more than a brief one chord vamp (m7b5), which will still gravitate towards the relative major.
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#25
Quote by Galvanise69
So your establishing a diminished tonality with minor chords?

Would that be like playing a minor chord, and eventually a minor chord based of the third degree as to establish a diminished tonality??

Sorry, its the morning, can you give me some examples?


Conveniently, yes. I actually wrote a short piece in Locrian a few weeks ago because someone wanted to see what it (the mode) sounded like...

Locrian (Power Tab)

It makes heavy use of a minor tonic chord (establish the tonal center), and the iii chord (to establish the mode)
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#26
Quote by Galvanise69
You say you made heavy use of a minor tonic?

Did you mean minor or dminished?

If it was a true minor tonic, how did you estalish a diminished tonality?

Sorry if my inability is bothering you...


The song is in G# locrian (or at least, very heavily implies it). I use a G#m chord instead of G#m7b5 as the tonic because a half-diminished chord is far too dissonant to provide any sort of stable tonal center. I also use minor chord built of off the third degree to imply a flatted fifth.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#27
So the min7b5 chord is to unstable for a tonal center, becuse it will just want to resolve to the tonic is that what your saying?


Even alone, I often notice that it wants to resolve elsewhere. Over a static m7b5 chord, my melodies always seem to resolve a half step up to the relative major. Building an actual progression with a half diminished chord as the tonic would be near impossible.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#28
Quote by Galvanise69
Does static just mean its a chord you sit on, and active a chord that you pass over?


By "static" I mean a one chord vamp. You stay on that chord and don't move from it.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#29
Quote by Archeo Avis
Even alone, I often notice that it wants to resolve elsewhere. Over a static m7b5 chord, my melodies always seem to resolve a half step up to the relative major. Building an actual progression with a half diminished chord as the tonic would be near impossible.


Wouldnt a progression such as this establish a good Locrain tonality?

im7 - biiim7 - bV7 - im7

The im7 is borrowed from the parallel minor, and provides stability. The biiim7 is a chord from the Locrian mode, and helps to establish the tonality, particularly the b5. The bV7 is a dominant, which is borrowed from (1, b2, b3, b4, b5, b6, b7), and being a dominant, should pull to the tonic. Or would the fact that the dominant is built on the flattened fifth degree destroy the pull to the tonic?
#30
Quote by Galvanise69
So your progression

In the key of C (B diminished) would that be


Amin7 - Bmin7b5 - G7 - Amin7?

Or would you use a Gb7?

Sorry, im a little confused.

So your borrowing the V chord, from the superlocrian mode, the seventh mode of the melodic minor?

Because your b4 is your major 3rd, right.



Im assuming that was inteded towards me.

Using B Locrian, for the progression I listed would give us this progression:

Bm7 - Dm7 - F7 - Bm7.

Yes I would borrow the bV7 chord from the superlocrian. The b4 is functioning as the minor seventh in the bV7 chord. All the other tones (of bV7) would be found in the Locrian mode, so the chord wouldn't be too out of place.

Could someone like Archeo, Z4, GBP, or BGC clarify this for us? Will the bV7 still pull to the tonic, or would the fact that it is built on bV rather than V destroy this pull?