#1
i know your all probably sick of modes after the "Feel of different modes?" thread..

but i didn't want to ask my question there cuz the TS's questions wasnt even answered yet and i didnt want to change the subject.

anyway...

so when they say "Modes of the Major scale"
are they just refering to how to derive the different scales, not actually how to use them

Ex.
modes with the parent scale of C major: **parent being the key word


C Ionian CDEFGAB
D Dorian DEFGABC
E Phrygian EFGABC
... etc


thats not saying that those are the modes of C maj, its just saying how to get those certian modes, right?

rephrased:: IN Cmaj if you were to play CDEFGAB in any order starting at any one of those notes it would be C Ionian..
soo.. "modes with a parent scale" is just a guide to how to get different modes.. not how to use them???
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#2
Quote by victoryaloy
soo.. "modes with a parent scale" is just a guide to how to get different modes.. not how to use them???
Pretty much. The big thing to get is that would don't play C Ionian over Dm7 G7, you play D Dorian. Although they contain the same notes, the roots are different and therefore, the sounds are different.


And yes, I am sick of modes after that thread.

Quote by victoryaloy
thats not saying that those are the modes of C maj, its just saying how to get those certian modes, right?
No no no! They are the modes of the C major scale, though the modes are used in different contexts. You don't play E Phrygian over a G Mixo progression, you play G Mixo.
#3
Quote by bangoodcharlote
They are the modes of the C major scale, though the modes are used in different contexts.


Thanks man.. that totally cleared things up for me.
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#4
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Pretty much. The big thing to get is that would don't play C Ionian over Dm7 G7, you play D Dorian. Although they contain the same notes, the roots are different and therefore, the sounds are different.
You wouldn't even play D Dorian over that progression because it's a tonal progression, not modal. Hence, you would play C major.
#5
Quote by titopuente
You wouldn't even play D Dorian over that progression because it's a tonal progression, not modal. Hence, you would play C major.



whats the difference between a tonal progression and a modal progression?
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#6
Quote by victoryaloy
whats the difference between a tonal progression and a modal progression?
I don't know, but I'm tempted to call BULLSHIT on him, as the progression is absolutely a D Dorian progression.
#7
Quote by bangoodcharlote
I don't know, but I'm tempted to call BULLSHIT on him, as the progression is absolutely a D Dorian progression.


I concur. I was always taught that despite what most people say, there can be chord progressions in modal music. It's just that they are usually very simple, mostly involving two chords to make sure it doesn't resolve to the ionian or aeolian roots.
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#9
Quote by bangoodcharlote
I don't know, but I'm tempted to call BULLSHIT on him, as the progression is absolutely a D Dorian progression.



i agree..

modes are based off the tonal center (as i recently learned )
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#10
Quote by victoryaloy
whats the difference between a tonal progression and a modal progression?

If I was really lazy I would say that a modal progression is just a progression that resolves to a chord other than the I or i chord of the parent scale. But there's a bit more to it than that.

With modal progressions, you're implying a single chord, so it's not technically a progression. There's not really much feeling of movement in this context as you're not moving beyond the context of the mode you're implying. Since these types of passages of music go on for 8 or 16 or some large amount of bars with just one or two chords to play over, you wouldn't be playing the same exact chord the entire time. You should try to break the chord down into its smaller parts, while still keeping the entire chord in mind by playing chords/intervals that strongly imply the chord on strong beats (1 and 3 in 4/4; 1 in 3/4; 1 and 4 in 6/8; etc.). This isn't a rule; you don't HAVE to do it like this, but the knowledge can help at times.

   1   2 &   & 4  &   1  2 &  & 4  &
e-------------------|--------------------||
B--8-----7-----3-p5-|-2----3----3-p5-/---||
G--7-----7-----4----|-2----2----4----/--:||
D--7-----5-----4----|-2----2----4----/---||
A--0---0-----0------|-0--0----0----------||
E-------------------|--------------------||

I have A in bass. The first chord is A7sus4, the second is A13sus4, the third I included to provide a bit of color, so even though it has the form of Bm w/ a suspension, I'm still thinking of it as containing the 4(D), 6(F#), and 9(B) of A. This is to generate a little more interest, and because I'm straying from the established harmony on a weak beat (4 and the & of 4), it doesn't alter the tonal center like it would if I put it on the 1 beat of the next measure or something like that. In the second measure I play A major, A sus4, and that Bm color chord again. Note that mixolydian is associated with dominant chords and suspended-type chords that don't have any alterations. Since the A major is the triad that is associated with A7, I'm implying a progression of Asus-A7. A Mixolydian is associated with both of these. Hence, I have a piece of music in A Mixolydian.

And I stand corrected on the Dm7-G7. It's just that whenever I've seen a ii-V, I've always associated it with tonal music rather than modal music. I just wasn't thinking.
#11
Quote by titopuente
It's just that whenever I've seen a ii-V, I've always associated it with tonal music rather than modal music.
Right. You could definately have ii-V7-I, Dm G7 C, but the whole idea is that you don't resolve to C and that is what makes it Dorian.


So you're not an idiot.
#12
Quote by victoryaloy
i know your all probably sick of modes after the "Feel of different modes?" thread..

but i didn't want to ask my question there cuz the TS's questions wasnt even answered yet and i didnt want to change the subject.

anyway...

so when they say "Modes of the Major scale"
are they just refering to how to derive the different scales, not actually how to use them

Ex.
modes with the parent scale of C major: **parent being the key word


C Ionian CDEFGAB
D Dorian DEFGABC
E Phrygian EFGABC
... etc


thats not saying that those are the modes of C maj, its just saying how to get those certian modes, right?

rephrased:: IN Cmaj if you were to play CDEFGAB in any order starting at any one of those notes it would be C Ionian..
soo.. "modes with a parent scale" is just a guide to how to get different modes.. not how to use them???



sorta it's a cheat to find them whileyou are playing assuming toy know your major scales across the fret board

ifyou take the Cmaj sclae and start on D it has the same note a D dorian. to understand this you need to know the intervals

the major scale would have the intervals

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8(octave)

and respectively the Dmaj scale is

D E F# G A B C# D

now obviously if you start on the second note of Cmaj toi get Ddorian you will notice

D E F G A B C D

now if you compare that to the D maj scale

the third and the seventh is flattened

giving you the intervals 1 2 b3 4 5 6b7 8(octave)

so your rihgt they are not of the C scale but a quick guide to find them on the fret board

now with that said D dorian would only be prodominant if D was the tonal center with these notes used in the chords.

if you played C G and F you wouldn't really be using Ddorian just Cmaj

a Dmin6 cord as a tonal center with other chords structured around those intervals would give you the dorian mode

although you could use dorian mode on a minor progression but that get's alittle more into it
song stuck in my head today


#13
The way I see it if you vamp Dm7 - G7 over a D pedal and play dorian over it, you're just confusing yourself calling it G7 because it's all just Dm7, extended. A modal vamp explores the melodic possibilities of one chord and its mode.

Without the pedal, the movement to the C is too strong. Even if you just go back and forth, it sounds like you're tagging and still wants to go to C.
#14
Quote by Nick_
The way I see it if you vamp Dm7 - G7 over a D pedal and play dorian over it, you're just confusing yourself calling it G7 because it's all just Dm7, extended. A modal vamp explores the melodic possibilities of one chord and its mode.

Without the pedal, the movement to the C is too strong. Even if you just go back and forth, it sounds like you're tagging and still wants to go to C.


What if you were to make a Dorian progression using these chords?

im7, iim7, IIIM7, IV7, V7, viø7, VIIM7

This essentially harmonizes the Dorian mode, except borrows the dominant chord from the parallel minor, which would pull to the tonic.
#15
I would definitely not use that Dm7-G7; the G7 clearly wants to go to C, what with it being the V and all.
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#16
Quote by DaddyTwoFoot
I would definitely not use that Dm7-G7; the G7 clearly wants to go to C, what with it being the V and all.
Play it; it will sound fine.

i IV7 is the classic Dorian progression!
#17
I played it, and it sounded like it was just stuck on repeat with no resolution at all.
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#19
Just because it works for Santana doesn't mean it works for me.

Edit - Well, Tito Puente, but who listens to that version?
Quote by dudetheman
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#21
Oye Como Va is a great song, blah blah blah. That doesn't mean that my playing of the progression is going to sound right. Trust me, it's a point that doesn't need any more pushing. It just didn't sound right to me.
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#22
Excpe that's the progression in "Oye Como Va," so if you think my progression sounds awkward, you're probably not playing it in a way that is conducive to D Dorian.
#23
Yeah, I caught that it's the progression; it's already been mentioned, and I already conceded the point. You can drop it now.
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