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#1
dont tell me to look at the sticky. I have

so all along i thought that you could play d dorian e phrygian, or any of the corresponding modes of cmajor along with a cmajor chord progression, but now im reading that it doesnt work like that?

say im playing chord progression C F G

besides c ionian, what modes could be worked here?
#3
so, you can use d dorian e phrygian f lydian etc over a cmaj chord progression? are you sure?

Ive just heard soooooooo many different conflicting things about modes, people should shut up if they arent sure they are right. i just want to make sure i have it right
#4
holy **** that site is awesome
Quote by Deadmen
Wait for them by your door, and when they come.
Jump out with your wiener just hanging there and yell "Surprise!"
They'll never talk to you again, also make shure to helicoptor it a bit.



Memeber #665 of the Ibanez RG owners of the world club
#6
A few weeks ago, Dave Weiner (guitarist with the Steve Vai band) started doing a lecture on modes. The first installment is here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQpOfW6TEBI

Dave has since done several installments on Modes and I feel his explaination is the best I have heard to date. He keeps it simple which is good for me .

Just my .02

Chris
#7
You have to use proper voice leading regardless of what scale you're using. Most rock noobs have no clue. If you're using C Ionian over a Cmaj7 chord and then it switches to teh four chord Fmaj7, your lick or lead or w/e in the bar you start taht chord will sound most consonant at an f an A a C or an E. IF you want to use E phrygian, go ahead and do that, but always keep in mind the chord you're playing over you don't wanna add an ugly note to a nice chord.
#8
Quote by iml84myd8
You have to use proper voice leading regardless of what scale you're using. Most rock noobs have no clue. If you're using C Ionian over a Cmaj7 chord and then it switches to teh four chord Fmaj7, your lick or lead or w/e in the bar you start taht chord will sound most consonant at an f an A a C or an E. IF you want to use E phrygian, go ahead and do that, but always keep in mind the chord you're playing over you don't wanna add an ugly note to a nice chord.


I have no idea what you just said, can anyone expand on that?
#10
Quote by DirtyMcCurty
so, you can use d dorian e phrygian f lydian etc over a cmaj chord progression? are you sure?


No, no, no, no, no. Anyone who says so is absolutely, unequivocally wrong.

Because the modes are harmonically unstable, there are usually only one or two chord vamps that will work to sustain the mode; otherwise the mode will naturally want to resolve to a key. For example, you're not playing F Lydian unless the chord suggests F Lydian, such as an Fmaj7#11. The chording determines the modality.

iml84myd8: You can't just "go ahead and use" E Phrygian over an Fmaj7 chord, that's not how it works.
#11
so, would i be correct in saying that even if you played d dorian e phrygian f lydian etc. over a cmaj progression they would all resolve to C making the parallel modes more of a way to stay in key all across the neck?

if that is correct, then how do i figure out what chords would actually bring out the modes instead of resolving to just plain ol C
#12
Quote by DirtyMcCurty
so, would i be correct in saying that even if you played d dorian e phrygian f lydian etc. over a cmaj progression they would all resolve to C making the parallel modes more of a way to stay in key all across the neck?

if that is correct, then how do i figure out what chords would actually bring out the modes instead of resolving to just plain ol C


You couldn't even do that; because the chording determines modality, you couldn't possibly be playing anything other than either C major or C Ionian over a C major progression.

Each mode has specific chords you can use, here are some:

Ionian- maj6, maj7
Dorian- min6, min7
Phrygian- m7b9, addb9
Lydian- maj7#11, maj13
Mixolydian- dominant and sus chords
Aeolian- m7b13
Locrian- m7b5
#13
im glad i started this thread now, its raising more questions

so my previouse question i think i worded it wrong, i said that my thoughts were that you could play d dorian blah blah blah and have it resolve to c, but i really meant you can use those positions to stay in c ionian all over the neck, not necesarily playing d dorian as in defgabcd, but using the dorian position to play cmaj over a cmaj chord prog. correct?

and as for what you just posted, what if a progression went like this A, c#m7, F#m, E, D
would i then be forced to switch into a dorian mode to make the c# chord work, and then what about the rest of the progression?

I always think i get modes, but theres always something missing that i never understand

ALSO, what if i turned my whole profression into power chords, then what would happen since it is missing the intervals that make it into those certain chords
Last edited by DirtyMcCurty at Mar 25, 2008,
#14
Quote by DirtyMcCurty
im glad i started this thread now, its raising more questions

so my previouse question i think i worded it wrong, i said that my thoughts were that you could play d dorian blah blah blah and have it resolve to c, but i really meant you can use those positions to stay in c ionian all over the neck, not necesarily playing d dorian as in defgabcd, but using the dorian position to play cmaj over a cmaj chord prog. correct?

and as for what you just posted, what if a progression went like this A, c#m7, F#m, E, D
would i then be forced to switch into a dorian mode to make the c# chord work, and then what about the rest of the progression?


Well, if your progression is in C major, you'll be using that scale as long as the progression stays focused on the tonal center of C. If you know your major scales up and down the neck, you've got all your modes covered as well. Start on any root you want and you will still be playing the C major scale while that is the tonal center.

Your progression (A, C#m7, F#m, E, D) suggests the key of A major. You wouldn't use Dorian for the C#m7; Dorian begins on the second degree of the scale, and C# is the third degree. In order to play a mode from that third degree, you'd need Phrygian, but the progression doesn't suggest it. You should use the A major scale primarily; that's not a modal progression.
#15
so would a modal progression be something like cmin7 fmin7 gmin7, and that would warrant the d dorian mode?

and if not, then what is a modal progression?
#16
Nope, you don't want complex progressions, as I said the modes are not harmonically stable so you need one or two chord vamps to establish and remain in a mode.

If you want D Dorian, a good vamp for that would be Dm7 G7.
#18
ok i think i almost understand, but technically why do those chords work with d dorian?

thanks for the help by the way your by far the most helpful person on this subject that ive found
#19
not to steal from ur thread but can u guys come to mine (right above urs) and help mme out im a nublet compared to u and it would be really helpful if u explained it to me
#21
Quote by DirtyMcCurty
ok i think i almost understand, but technically why do those chords work with d dorian?

thanks for the help by the way your by far the most helpful person on this subject that ive found


Firstly, you want that simple vamp because the mode will naturally want to resolve back to key-based music. Secondly, minor seventh chords are characteristic of Dorian, and that's what the progression starts on, and the G7 provides a ii-V vamp that clearly resolves back to D and will therefore keep you in the mode.
#22
ok so as i was saying i was using a lesson here on UG to learn my modes and scales and i understood it enough that i wanted to figur out one of the scales going down the fret board and the lesson had boxes for each one but i did not understand if it was just the sma box down the fretboard for each kep like in the penatonic scales or if its different like when i tabbed it out like so:

E|0-|1-|--|3-|--|5-|6-|--|8-|--|10|--|12
B|--|1-|--|3-|--|5-|6-|--|8-|--|10|11|--
G|0-|--|--|3-|--|5-|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12
D|0-|--|2-|3-|--|5-|--|7-|8-|--|10|--|12
A|0-|1-|--|3-|--|5-|--|7-|8-|--|10|--|12
E|0-|1-|--|3-|--|5-|6-|--|8-|--|10|--|12
i would do it in notes instead of tabs but UG doesnt take my color coding i did and it take to long to color code it lol
#23
also it only goes up to twleve becaudse i belive u r smart enough to no about octaves
#24
F8iscruel: A mode is just a re-ordering of another scale, so it's simply the major scale based off a different root, like:

C Ionian: C D E F G A B
D Dorian: D E F G A B C
E Phrygian: E F G A B C D

and so on. When the chord progression suggests a specific mode, the easiest thing to do is just change the root of the original major scale, though you don't have to play that as the first note of the new mode.
#25
if thats thecase is it possible or plausible to chang the root of the scale in the middle of the scale
#26
Quote by F8iscruel
if thats thecase is it possible or plausible to chang the root of the scale in the middle of the scale


I'm not sure I get what you mean. If you're working within a mode, the progression will indicate the tonal center, so stay within the notes of the mode and you'll be fine. The chords indicate the tonal center, which will indicate the key which in turn indicates the scale. Changing scales should move accordingly with the progression.
#27
I was wondering more of why are min7 chords characteristic of dorian, like wats the reasoning behind it?

also do you know anywhere where i can read up on stuff like this so i dont have to ask everybody, ive read almost everything i can find about modes and i dont remember anyone going into this kind of detail, and this is the stuff i need to know
#28
o thats ok i forgot what it meant also.. but as i thought about what u have been saying another thought about scales popped into my brain. how exactly do u play a solo with a scale because when i ask people that question they give me a half-brained response that doesnt help me and leaves me looking like an idiot by the end... i shoudl clarify when i look at a solo or a riff even and someone says its in a scale i look at it and it is got one note beign played more than once, but i thought a scale meant u had to play form point a to point b, from start to finish, etc
#29
Quote by DirtyMcCurty
I was wondering more of why are min7 chords characteristic of dorian, like wats the reasoning behind it?

also do you know anywhere where i can read up on stuff like this so i dont have to ask everybody, ive read almost everything i can find about modes and i dont remember anyone going into this kind of detail, and this is the stuff i need to know


Theory sticky in the Musician Talk forum is helpful, other than that I don't know anything offhand.

Anyway, to figure out why a minor seventh chord is characteristic of the Dorian mode, let's look at the intervals of the mode:

Dorian: 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7

A minor seventh chord is built off of these intervals: 1 b3 5 b7. Same way a minor sixth chord is 1 b3 5 6. Therefore, the min7 and min6 fit perfectly. The b3 and b7 with the inclusion of the natural 2, 5 and 6 are what make the Dorian mode unique. These chords accentuate those intervals.
#30
Quote by F8iscruel
o thats ok i forgot what it meant also.. but as i thought about what u have been saying another thought about scales popped into my brain. how exactly do u play a solo with a scale because when i ask people that question they give me a half-brained response that doesnt help me and leaves me looking like an idiot by the end... i shoudl clarify when i look at a solo or a riff even and someone says its in a scale i look at it and it is got one note beign played more than once, but i thought a scale meant u had to play form point a to point b, from start to finish, etc


Nope, a scale is determined by the key. You can work in a specific key without playing the scale straight up and down, but many people fail to realize this. For example, if I play A F# B D C G E, I'm working in the G major or E minor scale (there's no progression here to determine tonality.) You look at the notes in a specific piece of music and figure out what key they would fit into. To do this, you need to be familiar with all your key signatures. Are you?
#32
Quote by F8iscruel
no can u explain this more plese, btw u are helping alot thnk u


No problem. Basically, a key signature tells you what key you're in. The key represents the tonal center. You'll be able to look at a key signature and know what key you're working in. I forgot what the trick is with minor keys, but for major keys: if you have sharps in the key signature, go one half step up from the last sharp to get your key signature. For example, A major contains F#, C# and G#. G# is the third sharp in the key, go up a half step and you get A, which is the key. For a key with flats, simply take the next to last flat and that's your key. Example: Bb major has two flats, Bb and Eb. In the key signature, Eb comes second. Go back one flat and you get Bb, the key.

Here's a list of the most common major keys, just focus on these for the time being and get comfortable with identifying keys:

Natural key:

C major - No sharps/flats

Sharp (dominant) keys:
G - One sharp (F#)
D - Two sharps (F#, C#)
A - Three sharps (F#, C#, G#)
E - Four sharps (F#, C#, G#, D#)
B - Five sharps (F#, C#, G#, D#, A#)
F# - Six sharps (F#, C#, G#, D#, A#, E#)

Flat (subdominant) keys:
F - one flat (Bb)
Bb - two flats (Bb, Eb)
Eb - three flats (Bb, Eb, Ab)
Ab - four flats (Bb, Eb, Ab, Db)
Db - five flats (Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb)
Gb - six flats (Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb)

And to get a minor key, simply go a minor third (one and a half steps) down from the tonic of the major key. For example, go a minor third down from C major, you have A minor. They'll have the same key signature.
Last edited by :-D at Mar 25, 2008,
#33
thank u i think i actually recall osmething like that in the lesson im gonna print it off and really review it
#35
Quote by F8iscruel
o thats ok i forgot what it meant also.. but as i thought about what u have been saying another thought about scales popped into my brain. how exactly do u play a solo with a scale because when i ask people that question they give me a half-brained response that doesnt help me and leaves me looking like an idiot by the end... i shoudl clarify when i look at a solo or a riff even and someone says its in a scale i look at it and it is got one note beign played more than once, but i thought a scale meant u had to play form point a to point b, from start to finish, etc


also i think from what you said here its importtant to note that when people solo they arent just playing the scale up and down, they are taking notes from the scale and arranging them in a way that sounds good for what they are playing, the scale just tells you which notes can be played in that particular key
#36
Quote by DirtyMcCurty
also i think from what you said here its importtant to note that when people solo they arent just playing the scale up and down, they are taking notes from the scale and arranging them in a way that sounds good for what they are playing, the scale just tells you which notes can be played in that particular key


Correct. The different arrangements of scales IS music, the key is really just a general guide of where to go.
#37
cool thanks im tring to help someone else in a forum on how to get out of turning in a report for not doing his work, im pretty good at that
#38
one more question, what if i were to use power chords instead of full chords, would the modes be rendered useless and would i be forced to just play in key to whatever progression i am in?
#39
Quote by DirtyMcCurty
one more question, what if i were to use power chords instead of full chords, would the modes be rendered useless and would i be forced to just play in key to whatever progression i am in?


I don't do this often so don't necessarily take it as gospel, but here's what I think. Because the power chords are tonally ambiguous (just the root and fifth), you'll be able to fill out what kind of a feel you're going with in your melody. By emphasizing certain notes you'll be able to create the feel of certain modes. For example, if you have a simple powerchord progression like E5 D5 A5, you'd have to figure out exactly where you think your key is and work with specific modes from there.
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