#1
ya an other thread on this but this question(that i can find) hasn't been asked yet.

http://intellectualmusician.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/majorscalediagrams.png

the first one is a major scale or Ionian pattern right??


if so you can play scales all over the neck right you could play that 6th string 8th fret(c) so it would be a C major scale but how you play it on 5th string 3rd fret(C) c major scale. so just tell if you can't or is there a differnt way to play that.

thanks

nathan
#3
^Ionian implies that you're playing strictly modal music. TS, don't worry about modes yet. Just learn the major scale for now.

Scales exist all over the neck. There is no one way to play a C major scale. There are hundreds of patterns and boxes that could be considered C major.

Do not learn scales as boxes. Feel free to use boxes as guides for your fingers, but the C major scale exists at fret 1, fret 3, fret 7, fret 8, everywhere!!!!!
#4
ok but again what pattern would you use to play a cmajor scale on string 5,4,3,2,or 1??
#5
Quote by bangoodcharlote
^Ionian implies that you're playing strictly modal music. TS, don't worry about modes yet. Just learn the major scale for now.

Scales exist all over the neck. There is no one way to play a C major scale. There are hundreds of patterns and boxes that could be considered C major.

Do not learn scales as boxes. Feel free to use boxes as guides for your fingers, but the C major scale exists at fret 1, fret 3, fret 7, fret 8, everywhere!!!!!


You learn something new everyday :3, thanks.
#6
Quote by bangoodcharlote
^Ionian implies that you're playing strictly modal music. TS, don't worry about modes yet. Just learn the major scale for now.

Scales exist all over the neck. There is no one way to play a C major scale. There are hundreds of patterns and boxes that could be considered C major.

Do not learn scales as boxes. Feel free to use boxes as guides for your fingers, but the C major scale exists at fret 1, fret 3, fret 7, fret 8, everywhere!!!!!



but ain't ionian and major scale the same thing??
#7
^Yes, but to say C Ionian means that you play ONLY those seven notes, while C major allows more flexibility with chromatics.

Quote by nath1142
ok but again what pattern would you use to play a cmajor scale on string 5,4,3,2,or 1??
You mean with the roots on strings other than the root? Use the scale-finder on wholenote.com. It is under basics.
#8
A C Major scale is just the notes C D E F G A B, with C as the root(usu. first or last note). This is the same anywhere on the guitar you play it.
BTW, it's usually not as good to just learn patterns. If you can learn the notes, you can figure out the patterns, and have clear understanding of what you're actually playing.

Edit:
Here is C on each string.

-------------------8--
----------------1-----
-------------5--------
--------10-----------
-----3----------------
--8-------------------
Last edited by cameronlj at Mar 25, 2008,
#9
Quote by cameronlj
A C Major scale is just the notes C D E F G A B, with C as the root(usu. first or last note). This is the same anywhere on the guitar you play it.
BTW, it's usually not as good to just learn patterns. If you can learn the notes, you can figure out the patterns, and have clear understanding of what you're actually playing.


i know notes on the guitar this is y i want to learn modes, patterns stuff like that.
#11
One really useful pattern is the minor scale pattern.
It is the same as playing in the open position, with an F# and everything else natural, and you can move it around anywhere.
-|a|-|o|b|-|-
-|o|o|-|o|-|-
-|b|-|o|-|-|-
-|o|-|a|-|o|-
-|o|-|o|o|-|-
-|a|-|o|b|-|-

where a is the root in a minor scale.
and b is the root in a major scale.
Last edited by cameronlj at Mar 25, 2008,
#12
Quote by bangoodcharlote
I only want the TS to answer this:

If I play a lick that goes

e-12-13-15-13-12-


over a C major chord, I'm playing E Phrygian over that C chord, right?



don't answer, its a trick question!


If your playing that over a C major Progression..... the notes are from C Major.

Its about the progression, not just the chord. It could be an A minor progression that includes a C major chord, as well as a number of other things.


To the TS:

yes, there are patterns for each scale that can be played anywhere on the neck. There are generally 5 patterns ( there are more if you learn the 3 note per string patterns ).

I would suggest that you start with Major and minor. Learn all 5 patterns. Learn to connect them. Make sure you know where the tonic is in each pattern.

Dont learn anything else until you have those memorized and can apply them. Then look into modes when your ready.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Mar 25, 2008,
#13
Quote by GuitarMunky
don't answer its a trick question!


If your playing that over a C major Progression..... the notes are from C Major.

Its about the progression, not just the chord. It could be an A minor progression that includes a C major chord, as well as a number of other things.


Bangoodcharlote was trying to teach the ts a lesson.. way to go.
#14
k again i am just geting into scales and stuff the only scale i can play is a blues scale.
#16
Quote by nath1142


the first one is a major scale or Ionian pattern right??


ALL those patterns are C major scale. The patterns start on a different scale
degree going up the neck on the 6th string, but they are NOT modes. They
shouldn't have labeled them that way. They are just different fingering positions
for C major. Also, that's an absolutely awful fingering to have to memorize and
play. Find another site that describes 3 note per string fingerings or use CAGED
fingerings.
#17
Quote by edg
ALL those patterns are C major scale. The patterns start on a different scale
degree going up the neck on the 6th string, but they are NOT modes. They
shouldn't have labeled them that way. They are just different fingering positions
for C major. Also, that's an absolutely awful fingering to have to memorize and
play. Find another site that describes 3 note per string fingerings or use CAGED
fingerings.



those patterns are not awful. I use them all the time with no problems. So do alot of people. The 3 note per string patterns are fine as well, but the patterns at the TS's link are perfectly useable.

to the TS:

when you learn those, you do want to know where the tonic is. (thats where the scale starts). here are some charts you can look at that show the tonic clearly in each pattern. Here you can see them separately...and linked together across the neck. I would suggest starting with 1 pattern of each 1st (pattern 1 is most common)
learn them... memorize them.... practice using them in a musical situation like in a solo, THEN learn the adjacent patterns and learn to connect them all. It takes time. I wouldnt suggest learning the entire neck at once.

the 5 patterns for the Major and minor scales
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Mar 25, 2008,
#20
Quote by GoDrex
Why do you have to have a chord progression in order to be playing in a certain mode? What if I'm playing over a bass line that has no chords, or a single bass note?



well the chords would be "implied". BTW you dont have to have a chord progession.
its just that if you play a certain mode... lets say D dorian, but your chord progression is C major..... its just not going to sound dorian....... its going to sound C major.

You can however have a modal melody that is completely unaccompanied.... and have it sound like that mode.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Mar 25, 2008,
#22
Quote by bangoodcharlote
What are you doing you dumb shit?

Oh well, the point was made.


I hate to see people get ambushed

to be honest Im pretty sure all of that is over the TS head. I mean he only knows the blues scale. A lesson is only effective if the intended student has the background to understand it.

Quote by nath1142
is there a (good) site were i can see the modes??


Im sure there are plenty. There should be something here at UG. I have some videos of them (still making the charts)... here: scale vids

But I would strongly recommend just learning Major and minor for starters. Its really helpful if you learn things that your ready for. Learning modes before you know any theory, or can even play the Major and minor scale.... is like trying to learn calculus when your in kindergarten.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Mar 25, 2008,
#23
since there are seven modes with the same notes, the mode depends on the note being used as the tonic, whether there is a chord progression or not.

Edit:
The modes:
C D E F G A B
starting on:
C - Ionian (aka. Major)
D - Dorian
E - Phrygian
F - Lydian
G - Mixolydian
A - Aeolian (aka. Minor)
B - Locrian
Last edited by cameronlj at Mar 25, 2008,
#24
Quote by nath1142
is there a (good) site were i can see the modes??


Theory sticky. Don't worry about modes until you're familiar with the theory behind the major scale and diatonic harmony.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#25
Quote by GuitarMunky
those patterns are not awful. I use them all the time with no problems. So do alot of people. The 3 note per string patterns are fine as well, but the patterns at the TS's link are perfectly useable.


To each his own. If the choices are an internally consitent, logical, regular
patterning that makes memorizing easier, vs a jumble of 3 and 2 note per string
fingerings with not much rhyme or reason for it, I'll take the former. They're both
usable. But by comparison, I'd say that one's awful.
#26
Quote by GuitarMunky
I hate to see people get ambushed

to be honest Im pretty sure all of that is over the TS head. I mean he only knows the blues scale. A lesson is only effective if the intended student has the background to understand it.


Im sure there are plenty. There should be something here at UG. I have some videos of them (still making the charts)... here: scale vids

But I would strongly recommend just learning Major and minor for starters. Its really helpful if you learn things that your ready for. Learning modes before you know any theory, or can even play the Major and minor scale.... is like trying to learn calculus when your in kindergarten.


k thanks for the site but thier are liek 4 patterns and this is were it just confusing which should i learn first(i'm just goin to guess the first one) but do memorizes them or just learn to play them so if i see them i know how kinda thing.
#28
Quote by cameronlj
since there are seven modes with the same notes, the mode depends on the note being used as the tonic, whether there is a chord progression or not.

Edit:
The modes:
C D E F G A B
starting on:
C - Ionian (aka. Major)
D - Dorian
E - Phrygian
F - Lydian
G - Mixolydian
A - Aeolian (aka. Minor)
B - Locrian


can i ask why they start on that note because there can be a A major not just C??
#29
Quote by nath1142
k thanks for the site but thier are liek 4 patterns and this is were it just confusing which should i learn first(i'm just goin to guess the first one) but do memorizes them or just learn to play them so if i see them i know how kinda thing.


NP, glad to help. There are 5 patterns of each scale there including the modes. ( not every single scale that exist... just the most commonly used ones).

I would highly recommend starting with pattern 1 of the Major & pattern 1 of the minor. Memorize those before doing anything else. Keep in the mind the whole concept of learning scales and where to apply them is a long process. be patient, take it 1 step at a time. If you have any questions after that your welcome to PM me.

Quote by edg
To each his own.

Exactly.

Quote by edg

If the choices are an internally consitent, logical, regular
patterning that makes memorizing easier, vs a jumble of 3 and 2 note per string
fingerings with not much rhyme or reason for it, I'll take the former.


nice spin on that. and their is another choice.... learn them all. There are times when 1 pattern may work out more conveniently than another. This way you have options.

Quote by edg

They're both
usable. But by comparison, I'd say that one's awful.


Fair enough, we all have our opinions.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Mar 25, 2008,
#30
Quote by nath1142
can i ask why they start on that note because there can be a A major not just C??



C is just used as an example because its the easiest key to deal with ( no sharps or flats)

he could have wrote the same thing based on A Major, and it would have worked out the same.

Really though, this stuff is just not going to make sense if you dont have a basic understanding of elementary theory. There is alot you need to learn 1st before approaching this subject. Even that statement you just quoted isnt entirely correct. Its easy to develop alot of wrong ideas if you jump into something without having the background to make sense of it.
shred is gaudy music
#31
Quote by GuitarMunky
NP, glad to help. There are 5 patterns of each scale there including the modes. ( not every single scale that exist... just the most commonly used ones).

I would highly recommend starting with pattern 1 of the Major & pattern 1 of the minor. Memorize those before doing anything else. Keep in the mind the whole concept of learning scales and where to apply them is a long process. be patient, take it 1 step at a time. If you have any questions after that your welcome to PM me.


Exactly.


nice spin on that. and their is another choice.... learn them all. There are times when 1 pattern may work out more conveniently than another. This way you have options.


Fair enough, we all have our opinions.


k thanks
#32
Quote by GuitarMunky
C is just used as an example because its the easiest key to deal with ( no sharps or flats)

he could have wrote the same thing based on A Major, and it would have worked out the same.

Really though, this stuff is just not going to make sense if you dont have a basic understanding of elementary theory. There is alot you need to learn 1st before approaching this subject. Even that statement you just quoted isnt entirely correct. Its easy to develop alot of wrong ideas if you jump into something without having the background to make sense of it.

i know some theory cause i played clarinet for 5 years, but gutiar theory it look like there is alot more of it.
#33
Quote by GuitarMunky


nice spin on that. and their is another choice.... learn them all. There are times when 1 pattern may work out more conveniently than another. This way you have options.


It's not spin and there's not much reason to memorize a lot of different ones.

The fingering of any position is actually somewhat incidental to the entire logical
organization of all of them if you move between positions a lot which I do. It's
the latter that actually helps you free yourself from being in "position" all together.

Isn't that the ultimate desired goal? Not being dependent on what position you're
in and what fingering you have to use?

Mostly I just work the board, I don't even really think position much any more, and
most of that was due to working with a logical fingering system like 3 NPS. I think
the best metric of how good a fingering system is, is how quickly it will allow you
to transcend fingering systems altogether. I don't know an actual number, but
the one shown would have taken me a LOT longer.

Perhaps you'd care to ennumerate the "pros" of that pattern you find so useful?
I don't see any, so I'm asking you. I can think of about 5-10 off the top of my head
with 3 note per string fingerings. So let's see where the spin is....
#34
Quote by edg
It's not spin and there's not much reason to memorize a lot of different ones.

The fingering of any position is actually somewhat incidental to the entire logical
organization of all of them if you move between positions a lot which I do. It's
the latter that actually helps you free yourself from being in "position" all together.

Isn't that the ultimate desired goal? Not being dependent on what position you're
in and what fingering you have to use?

Mostly I just work the board, I don't even really think position much any more, and
most of that was due to working with a logical fingering system like 3 NPS. I think
the best metric of how good a fingering system is, is how quickly it will allow you
to transcend fingering systems altogether. I don't know an actual number, but
the one shown would have taken me a LOT longer.

Perhaps you'd care to ennumerate the "pros" of that pattern you find so useful?
I don't see any, so I'm asking you. I can think of about 5-10 off the top of my head
with 3 note per string fingerings. So let's see where the spin is....


Look, the 3 note per string patterns are great. The others are fine as well. I don't consider any of them to be "awful". The same goes for chord voicings, or any other patterns on the neck. They are what they are.
shred is gaudy music
#35
Quote by nath1142
i know some theory cause i played clarinet for 5 years, but gutiar theory it look like there is alot more of it.


Music theory is music theory, the instrument you're playing doesn't change its fundamentals.
#36
Quote by GuitarMunky
Look, the 3 note per string patterns are great. The others are fine as well. I don't consider any of them to be "awful". The same goes for chord voicings, or any other patterns on the neck. They are what they are.


When there's clearly a better way of doing things, you can divide things into
"good" and "less good". When 1 way is much better than another, the 2nd
way could even be described as "awful" by comparison.

When you said "nice spin", your implication is I bring a lie to truth.
Essentially calling me a liar and trying to cover it up. So, for the benefit of
others reading who want to learn with minimal difficulty, I'm willing to back my
statement up. The only way I see to do that is to list the pros/cons of each, which
I'm willing to do.

You said: "and their is another choice.... learn them all."

A seemingly reasonable statement. Until you examine
it with a little reason. Then, it just adds even more spin.
In light of learning just 1 good pattern in order to free you of all fingering patterns,
why not spend a lot of time learning all fingering patterns?! What a great idea!

Finally, chord voicings serve a completely different purpose than fingering
patterns. It's more spin to equate the two.

Yes, there's quite a bit of spin in this thread indeed.
#37
Quote by edg
When there's clearly a better way of doing things, you can divide things into
"good" and "less good". When 1 way is much better than another, the 2nd
way could even be described as "awful" by comparison.

When you said "nice spin", your implication is I bring a lie to truth.
Essentially calling me a liar and trying to cover it up. So, for the benefit of
others reading who want to learn with minimal difficulty, I'm willing to back my
statement up. The only way I see to do that is to list the pros/cons of each, which
I'm willing to do.

You said: "and their is another choice.... learn them all."

A seemingly reasonable statement. Until you examine
it with a little reason. Then, it just adds even more spin.
In light of learning just 1 good pattern in order to free you of all fingering patterns,
why not spend a lot of time learning all fingering patterns?! What a great idea!

Finally, chord voicings serve a completely different purpose than fingering
patterns. It's more spin to equate the two.

Yes, there's quite a bit of spin in this thread indeed.



They are just patterns. I would rather encourage people to learn them. They are as useful as any other pattern, and in fact are commonly used. If you have a problem dealing with them, don't use them. But they are not "awful".
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Mar 26, 2008,
#39
Quote by :-D
Music theory is music theory, the instrument you're playing doesn't change its fundamentals.


yes i know that but i only new a couple of major scales, and one minor scale. on clarinet(my teacher was not very good) and i didn't know half, step whole pattern for scale and stuff like that.