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#1
last night while studying a little bit of theory and sorta jamming in drop d i had a thought, "are the 5 pentatonic modes actually derivatives of 5 of the actual modes just missing the 4th and 7th of the scale?" am i right or am i wrong?
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#2
You can look at it that way, yes.
Originally posted by germ
all of you shut up, or i swear ill turn this car RIGHT AROUND!!!!!

*closed*

damn. i was never good at magic tricks.
#3
Quote by aradine
last night while studying a little bit of theory and sorta jamming in drop d i had a thought, "are the 5 pentatonic modes actually derivatives of 5 of the actual modes just missing the 4th and 7th of the scale?" am i right or am i wrong?


Not really. They are missing the two notes which form a tritone with each other, which in the case of the Ionian mode does mean the 4th and 7th degrees. However there are no pentatonic modes built off the Lydian and Locrian modes, this way, as they both have tritones with the tonic.
#4
so exactly which ones are the pentatonic modes "related" to?
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#5
Quote by aradine
so exactly which ones are the pentatonic modes "related" to?
They're related to the parent scale of either the minor or major pentatonic. Using the modes is fairly useless, as they lack important tones.
#6
i don't think you understood my question bangoodcharlotte but i will take note all the same anyways what i meant was

minor pentatonic = minor scale
major pentatonic = major scale
mode 3 (i think they call it neutral pentatonic) = ?
mode 4 = ?
mode 5 =

my question is which mode goes with pentatonic mode 3, 4, 5?
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Pffffffft schematics


Although i guess the OP will have to get used to reading them if he's going to buy a bugera..
Quote by gregs1020


along with fire escape routes...

#7
There aren't pentatonic modes. You're getting mixed up with the 5 god-awful box positions...all they are is different places where the minor pentatonic scale occurs. If you learn the scale proplerly you'll understand all this.
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#8
Quote by aradine
i don't think you understood my question bangoodcharlotte but i will take note all the same anyways what i meant was

minor pentatonic = minor scale
major pentatonic = major scale
mode 3 (i think they call it neutral pentatonic) = ?
mode 4 = ?
mode 5 =

my question is which mode goes with pentatonic mode 3, 4, 5?


None. Those aren't modes you listed, simply the parent scale that the specific pentatonic was related to.
#9
ok i get what you are saying but are these "god-aweful boxes" as mr seagull called them do they have a parent scale or mode?
Quote by coolstoryangus
Pffffffft schematics


Although i guess the OP will have to get used to reading them if he's going to buy a bugera..
Quote by gregs1020


along with fire escape routes...

#10
Quote by aradine
ok i get what you are saying but are these "god-aweful boxes" as mr seagull called them do they have a parent scale or mode?


There are five major and five minor box positions; the major pentatonics are based off the major scale, the minor pentatonics are based off the natural minor scale.
#11
ok i understand now thank you for the help.
Quote by coolstoryangus
Pffffffft schematics


Although i guess the OP will have to get used to reading them if he's going to buy a bugera..
Quote by gregs1020


along with fire escape routes...

#12
Uhm...

There are modes of the pentatonic. He was perfectly right in saying that. Whether he's using them right or whatever, the question he asked was valid. Observe.

1 b3 4 5 b7 = Minor Pentatonic. In A, A C D E G.
Starting on the second degree, we get C D E G A. Which is the 1 2 3 5 6 of a C major scale. Hence, Pentatonic Major.
Starting on the third degree, D E G A C. Which is (I think) the 1 2 4 5 b7 of D. Hence, D Mixolydian pentatonic?
The fourth, E G A C D, I have no idea. 1 b3 4 b6 b7 in relation to E Major?
The fifth would be G A C D E, which is 1 2 4 5 6 in relation to G major. So another "flavor" of major pentatonic?

I just came up with these on the spot, but there can be modes of any scale, and I think that's what they'd equate to.
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#13
^Those are right. But...


The D one has no third or sixth, so it could be used as a substitution for D Dorian, D Mixolydian, or D Aeolian.

The E one would be related to the E Phrygian scale, but it has no second or fifth, so it could be used as a sub for E Locrian, E Phrygian, or E Aeolian.

That's how you would use these scales, not to establish a modal tonality for an entire song, but as cool substitutions for more standard scales to add some variety to your playing.
#15
HammerAndSickle: You're correct, but read BGC's post, that was my reasoning; you can't pinpoint those as being one specific mode so you don't use them to indicate a specific modal tonality.
#16
i don't think that link that goes to silentdeftone's explonation is correct. and frankley I'm not sure why that post is locked, because his pentatonics for the modes are incorrect, based on what I was taught.
#17
actually the more I look at it... ( https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=298378) the more I get pissed off. his reseaning makes no sense...
_____________________________________________________________
Our first mode is Ionian - a major mode since it forms a major chord (1 3 5). Thus we'll be applying the scale degrees of the minor pentatonic.


Code:
Natural Minor: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 1
Minor pentatonic: 1 b3 4 5 b7 1
Scale Degrees: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1

As you can see, the minor pentatonic is taking scale DEGREES (not INTERVALS!) 1 3 4 5 7 of the scale.

If we apply those scale DEGREES to the Ionian mode, we come out with intervals 1 3 4 5 7 - which is the Ionian pentatonic scale.

We can apply these scale DEGREES to the other major modes - Lydian and Mixolydian.

Code:
Lydian
Lydian: 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 1
Degrees: 1 3 4 5 7 1

Lydian pentatonic intervals: 1 3 #4 5 7 1

Mixolydian
Mixolydian: 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 1
Degrees: 1 3 4 5 7 1

Mixolydian pentatonic intervals: 1 3 4 5 b7 1
_____________________________________________________________

I just don't understand where he came up with that logic^^^^
#18
well.. whats your idea?
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#19
if you use the same patterns as if you were to think of each mode as it's relative ionion, (same shape is major scale) you would tranform that to the pentatonic (subtract two notes) and the remaining notes you have, you send back to the mode and think of the scale degrees based on that root of the desired mode.
#20
Quote by xmacattack18
if you use the same patterns as if you were to think of each mode as it's relative ionion, (same shape is major scale) you would tranform that to the pentatonic (subtract two notes) and the remaining notes you have, you send back to the mode and think of the scale degrees based on that root of the desired mode.

Please elaborate, I have no idea what you've just posted.

-SD
#21
Quote by xmacattack18
if you use the same patterns as if you were to think of each mode as it's relative ionion, (same shape is major scale) you would tranform that to the pentatonic (subtract two notes) and the remaining notes you have, you send back to the mode and think of the scale degrees based on that root of the desired mode.



i'm not sure if i understand completely..
could you give an example?
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#22
silent, the way you have it, you still have a tritone interval within your "pentatonics" for example your ionion has the 4 and the 7, tritone.... your phyrgian has a b2 and the 5th.. etc... these examples you have break the entire point of shrinking a scale to 5 notes (to eliminate tri tone interval between the scale)
#23
sure I can give an example.... D major... I want to play d phyrgian... so its relative ionion would be Bb ionion.... I'm going to play a Bb pentatonic scale... write out all the note...Bb C D F G .... now those notes compared to D major would be the 1 b3 4 b6 b7..... so that would be the D phyrgian scale degrees and any phyrgian scale degrees
#24
Quote by bangoodcharlote
That's how you would use these scales, not to establish a modal tonality for an entire song, but as cool substitutions for more standard scales to add some variety to your playing.
Allow me to explain this post.

A Minor Pentatonic: A C D E G.

Starting on A, you have the intervals 1 b3 4 5 b7...minor pentatonic.
Starting on C, you have the intervals 1 2 3 5 6...major pentatonic.

Now to less common scales:

Starting on D it's 1 2 4 5 b7. This could be used as a substitute for D Aeolian, D Dorian, or D Mixolydian.

Starting on E it's 1 b3 4 b6 b7. This could be used as a substitute for E Aeolian or E Phrygian.

Starting on G it's 1 2 4 5 6. This could be used as a substitute for G Ionian, G Mixolydian, G Dorian, or G Melodic Minor.

You wouldn't ever establish a tonality around these scales because they lack important notes that you would use. Feel free to try to prove me wrong on this; I would like to hear what you're playing if it sounds good. These modes are not like the modes of the major scale. You can establish a song in a D Dorian Tonality; establishing a song in D Sue, Jr. (I'm naming the D E G A C scale "Sue, Jr.") would be close to impossible without including the notes B, F, F#, and/or Bb.


I hope this helps explain modal pentatonics.
#25
i get what your saying.. i'll have to try it out.
modal pent. are next on my list..
i just have to get threw some other stuff first

i think SD's technique is the way it is to get different sounds,
so it doesnt sound the same..
like if you use the modal pent. in key based music
just to spice it up..

but like i said..
i havent actually got around to really studying modal pent.

..i see where your coming from tho.
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#26
Quote by xmacattack18
sure I can give an example.... D major... I want to play d phyrgian... so its relative ionion would be Bb ionion.... I'm going to play a Bb pentatonic scale... write out all the note...Bb C D F G .... now those notes compared to D major would be the 1 b3 4 b6 b7..... so that would be the D phyrgian scale degrees and any phyrgian scale degrees
In this scanario, you are not playing the Bb major pentatonic, even if you're playing the box pattern commonly associated with that scale. You are playing an abreviated, pentatonic form of the D Phrygian scale that leaves out the 5 and b2. Those are probably the most important notes in Phrygian, but a brief omission of them may sound good.

You're actually completely following my post.
#27
ok aradine nobody has really seemed to directly answer your question, so i will.
There is a pentatonic scale for every degree of the major scale and each of these pentatonics have five inversions. So for any one key you have a total of 7 different pentatonics to play (even though several of them share the same fingering) its just depends on which tone they are based off of and with those inversions for each you theoretically have 35 pentatonics to choose from but most are simply spelled/fingered identically.
You have the three minor pentatonics starting 2, 3, and 6 scale degrees (all which have the common minor pentatonic shape as their root position)
Then you have the major pentatonics starting on the 1, 4, 5, scale degrees.
And for the 7th degree you have a minor pentatonic with a flat 5
Each of these can be "seen" as products of their root's mode if that makes it easier to understand. But what people on these threads must understand is that the positions in which they are playing a scale and what modes they are playing, does NOT determine the mode. The Chord progression does.
So each scale degree has a corresponding pentatonic scale each with five inversions.
I hope that makes it clear for you
#29
Quote by mattrsg1

You have the three minor pentatonics starting 2, 3, and 6 scale degrees (all which have the common minor pentatonic shape as their root position)
Then you have the major pentatonics starting on the 1, 4, 5, scale degrees.


Yup. Furthermore the minors and majors are relative to each other (so there's
3 unique sets of pentatonic notes weaving thru the major scale -- leaving out the
7th degree pent because it's a different formula).

As to the modes, ANY scale has as many modes as notes in the scale. So pent
has 5 modes, with only 2 of those having a really common usage (the major and
minor). However, these other modes can be very useful when you want to quickly
find common tones between 2 keys that might seem unrelated. That's not really
modal usage however...
#30
The other option is....

it's kind of like in your FACE kind of thing.

Lets' say we're in the key of C.
The 4th and 7th note have been removed from parent scale. (F and B)
And the movement is I , IV, V out of all things.

So you're asking yourself ...how in the heck are you going to solo
over the 4th chord when the root had been removed and that's been hit and miss.lol

ACE are the other arppegios in a Fmaj7 chord.
and it would be the same notes for the Amin.lol..so it's sort of relative
in one form or another.

Or you can just play the F major pentatonic over the Fmaj7.
But some would argu with you that you can't...after you just did.
#31
ordinary that was epic
i dont even know where to begin the entire post leaves me at a loss for words
you were about to make a point when you discussed the Amin tonic substitution for Fmaj7, but then you lost me with the last stanza. please what the **** are you talking about, did you just erase the subdominant from music as we know it
good god, that was impressive
#32
I'm talking about the samething you're saying.
It'll be as if you're playing Dminor pentatonic when your playing the F major
pentatonic over the Fmaj7 (IV chord)

hey..what you know...it changed key...like what edg said.

didn't i just say someone is going to tell me i can't after i just did.lmao
Last edited by Ordinary at Apr 23, 2008,
#33
Quote by Ordinary
I'm talking about the samething you're saying.
It'll be as if you're playing Dminor pentatonic when your playing the F major
pentatonic over the Fmar7 (IV chord)

hey..what you know...it changed key...like what edg said.

If you're playing over an F major chord and using a pentatonic, you're using F major, not D minor. It didn't change key.

But maybe you're working on some higher level than I am.
#34
Well isn't it RELATIVELY the same. I mean the Dmin to the Fmaj
Isn't this stuff basic ?

Didn't I write soemthing for you yesterday showing you in black and white
that the major pentatonic and minor pentatonic has the same notes,
even thou they have different sounds or tones.

Obviously...there's no B or Bb in the F major pentatonic.lol
Last edited by Ordinary at Apr 23, 2008,
#35
Quote by Ordinary
Well isn't it RELATIVELY the same. I mean the Dmin to the Fmaj

Obviously...there's no B or Bb in the F major pentatonic.lol

Yes, there's no B in F major anyway. Or D minor.

But they are relative keys, you're right; but if you're playing over the F chord, it's F major and not D minor because that's determined by the tonal center.

Quote by Ordinary
Didn't I write soemthing for you yesterday showing you in black and white
that the major pentatonic and minor pentatonic has the same notes,
even thou they have different sounds or tones.

Yes, unnecessarily, but again you haven't said "relative major and minor", which is the key. Yesterday you just said what you said above, which makes it sound as though (for example) C major pentatonic and C minor pentatonic have the same notes. I know the relatives have the same notes.
Last edited by :-D at Apr 23, 2008,
#36
well I did go into the other arppegios. (Fmaj7)You don't always have to play the root
ya know.

Think of it like this...when you strum all those notes of a chord...they don't
know if they're roots ,3rd, 5th. They still make their sounds.
#37
Quote by Ordinary
well I did go into the other arppegios. (Fmaj7)You don't always have to play the root
ya know.

Think of it like this...when you strum all those notes of a chord...they don't
know if they're roots ,3rd, 5th. They still make their sounds.

Yes, I know that. Don't assume for one second that I don't know what I'm talking about. And a chord is built on notes, not arpeggios. F A C E are serving as notes to build up the chord; unless you arpeggiate the chords built off of those notes you should not call them arpeggios.

And they may "not know" what their function is, but the function is still defined by the chord and context.
#38
Then why do you say so don't understand ?
Good lord..then play the darn arppegios of the Fmaj7 and what note are you ganna
playing ? FACE.lol

I think if you play those arpeggios slow enough it'll just be like a movement for a Bass line...then I'll just rip with F lydia, A aerolian, C ionian, and E phygian over them

look at the simularities of the Dmin notes....D, F,A
Last edited by Ordinary at Apr 23, 2008,
#39
Quote by Ordinary
Then why do you say so don't understand ?
Good lord..then play the darn arppegios of the Fmaj7 and what note are you ganna
playing ? FACE.lol

look at the simularities of the Dmin notes....D, F,A

No, you've got to be kidding me. A single note does not constitute an arpeggio. Play the NOTES of Fmaj7 and you get F A C E. Play the arpeggios and you get this:
F arpeggio- F A C
A arpeggio-A C# E
C arpeggio-C E G
E arpeggio-E G# B
And last time I checked, F A C A C#E C E G E G# B was not Fmaj7.

If you arpeggiate Fmaj7, you get F A C E, which I think is what you're trying to say. If you could communicate better we wouldn't have this problem.

Quote by Ordinary
I think if you play those arrgios slow enough it'll just be like a movement for a Bass line...then I'll just rip with F lydia, A aerolian, C ionian, and E phygian over them

Over an Fmaj7? Please tell me this is a joke.
Last edited by :-D at Apr 23, 2008,
#40
Well yeah..didn't i mentioned something about changing Keys ???

well didn't i say those note don't know if they are roots, 3rd, 5th...etc

it's all in your head.

what if just play the simular notes....like leave out the G# or C#
and play it over the Dmin chord...then can i kind of use that to ease
my way back to the key of C, if i wanted to change keys ?

like i said look at the simularities of the Dmin D,F,A

here's the extension D,F,A,C,E...it's every other notes...basic stuff
Last edited by Ordinary at Apr 23, 2008,
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