#1
If major chords are constructed from 1-3-5 scale degrees then why
is it that a B chord is B-F#-B-D#-F#? and not B-D#F# which are the 1st 3rd and 5th notes of the B major scale??? same with other chords
I thought you only had notes in different spots after inverting?
why say the 1-3-5 if its not in that order?

I know the notes are all in there but still totally confused
#2
1 3 5 is a triad. a power chord is 1 5 8. i havent learned much beyond that in my theory. sorry.
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#3
it doesent really matter the order because you are playing them simultaniously
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#4
it does matter the order if he alternates the pattern arpeggiated.
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#5
each of those notes 1 3 and 5 are each a 3rd interval away (1 - 3 = M3, 3 - 5 = m3) as i believe it a chord constructed of these 3 intervals have the same frequency patterns as a single note of the same key thus making them sound harmonic or melodic or whatever you wanna call em

a power chord or 5th chord is 1 and 5 the octave is optional all it does is add a little heavier sound to the chord and make it a triad

to poster above me: then you would be playing a inversion same chord still in key but gives the chord a little more flavour
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#6
The inversion occurs if the tonic note is not the lowest. Other than that, the triad just picks the note that goes in the chord, and order particularly does not matter unless you need the specific order harmonically. But no, for the most part, if you are not dealing with lowest note being the tonic, then order doesn't matter.
#7
I would just imagine if on the piano to form a major chord you have the
1-3-5 and would count from the left and on guitar you would count from the
root note on the lowest note and up. but looking at chords and what order the note
names are it is not the case of just 1st 3rd and 5th in that order.
is it a shapes thing? how are the order of 1-3-5's determined if they are not
1-3-5 what formula is this going by then?
Last edited by newguitars08 at Mar 28, 2008,
#8
^ In a perfect harmonic world, perhaps that would happen on guitar as it does on piano, but it's incredibly hard to replicate that. For example, an E major chord, you have the root - E, the third - G#, and the fifth - B. The root is open on the E string, and the next up is the G#, the 4th fret on the E string. But you cannot play open and 4th at the same time, and the G# does not occur on the A string until the 11th fret, but in that case, it's the same G# as the 1st fret on the G string. So we fudge harmonic order for practical purposes.
#10
Quote by CaRveItiNbass
it does matter the order if he alternates the pattern arpeggiated.


No. It doesn't. If I was really being picky I'd say arpeggiating =/= chord. There's no chord harmony really.
#11
Quote by newguitars08
So it is a shapes thing for logical finger positioning


ya. But remember that the tonic should be the lowest note, because if it is not, it will become an inversion and have a distinctly different sound. For instance, if you have a C major, C E G, and the lowest note is an E, the order is E G C, or E C G, in which case it becomes E min 6, and it will sound like one too.
#12
Quote by newguitars08
If major chords are constructed from 1-3-5 scale degrees then why
is it that a B chord is B-F#-B-D#-F#? and not B-D#F# which are the 1st 3rd and 5th notes of the B major scale??? same with other chords
I thought you only had notes in different spots after inverting?
why say the 1-3-5 if its not in that order?

I know the notes are all in there but still totally confused


It's simply a tonality issue. Technically, for example, that second B would be the eighth degree of the scale beginning on the B below it; however, it's still a B and therefore has the same tonality. The D# is technically a tenth, but the tonality is that of a third, and it's the only color tone in the chord B-F#-B-D#-F# if you're referring to it as B major. Just look at the notes in a case such as this, you don't have to be picky about the degree.
#13
Two notes are all that's required to "define" a chord - the 3rd (to tell if it's major or minor) and the 7th (to tell if it's major or dominant). Jazz improvisers often use just these two notes to "suggest" the chord as they move from place to place. The tonic (root) tone is often left to the bass and/or the vocalist. Beyond these, you can add the root, the 5th, and the variations resulting from moving the root and 5th around a bit (sharp the 5th, it's an augmented chord. Sharp it twice, it's a 6th chord. Flat it, it's diminished. Flat it twice, it's suspended. Sharp the root, it's a 9th chord, etc.)

Voicings (inversions, doubled tones, etc.) depend both on what you're trying to do, and what's playable on the guitar neck. Every chord is playable in at least 5 places on the neck (the chord forms, keying off the cowboy chards, are C, A, G, E, and D chord shapes, and variations based on them). These are all different voicings, meaning the notes from bottom to top are in different orders, and some notes can be doubled or omitted.
#14
Quote by Demodokos
The inversion occurs if the tonic note is not the lowest. Other than that, the triad just picks the note that goes in the chord, and order particularly does not matter unless you need the specific order harmonically. But no, for the most part, if you are not dealing with lowest note being the tonic, then order doesn't matter.


Ditto. The only note that matters in an inversion is the root. A first inversion can be 3-5-1 (more common) or 3-1-5. All that matters is the third is the root for example. Thats a common misconception about chord inversions.

EDIT: Wow, this is one of the first threads Ive seen where EVERY poster is correct, and knows their theory pretty decently. Awesome!

Edit Again: Nvm. Phank, they seventh in most music isnt the dominant. Its most commonly the fifth, except for jazz. The seventh of the scale is the leading tone. Ill edit in a chart in a min.

Final Edit: Heres the lil chart I made.

First-Tonic
Second-Super Tonic
Third-Mediant
Fourth-Sub Dominant
Fifth-Dominant
Sixth-Sub Mediant
Seventh-Leading Tone
Eight-Tonic

Most Edits ever award goes too...:Also Phank, a suspended chord replaces the 3rd with a 4th, or less commonly, second. A suspension alone does not affect the dominant.
Last edited by zeppelinfreak51 at Mar 28, 2008,
#15
Phank, they seventh in most music isnt the dominant. Its most commonly the fifth, except for jazz. The seventh of the scale is the leading tone. Ill edit in a chart in a min.
Perhaps a terminology issue? Dominant 7th chords have flatted 7th. The flatted seventh is indeed a leading tone. Yes, the fifth degree of the scale is called the dominant.

Also Phank, a suspended chord replaces the 3rd with a 4th, or less commonly, second. A suspension alone does not affect the dominant.
Depends on how you wish to look at it. Let's say you're playing in the key of B major, and you play a chord using the notes C, E, and G. Now, in the key of C, this is a major triad. But remember, you're not playing in C. So what chord is it? Well, let's see...it has a flatted 9th (the C), it has a suspended 4th (E), and it has sharp 5th (G). So in the key of B you're playing a B#5flat9susp.

So as I said, depends on how you wish to construct the chord. This is probably a bit confusing given the original question. Took me a while to understand a tritone substitute (the 3rd and 7th of any key are the 7th and 3rd of a key a flatted 5th away, so an F#7 chord can be used instead of a C7 chord). Took a while to realize that a major 6th in any key is a minor 7th in another key, as part of this same substitution. Like the all-accidentals "B" chord there, how you visualize and name a chord is a function of the key you're in, not really of the chord itself.
Last edited by phank at Mar 28, 2008,
#16
They don't have to be in the 1-3-5 order. Different orders are called "voicings." You can even have the 3 or the 5 be the lowest note. This is called an "inversion."

Quote by aradine
each of those notes 1 3 and 5 are each a 3rd interval away (1 - 3 = M3, 3 - 5 = m3) as i believe it a chord constructed of these 3 intervals have the same frequency patterns as a single note of the same key thus making them sound harmonic or melodic or whatever you wanna call em

a power chord or 5th chord is 1 and 5 the octave is optional all it does is add a little heavier sound to the chord and make it a triad

to poster above me: then you would be playing a inversion same chord still in key but gives the chord a little more flavour


Adding the octave to a power chord does NOT make it a triad. A triad has three unique notes. A power chord only has two, even with the octave added.
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#17
Quote by zeppelinfreak51
Ditto. The only note that matters in an inversion is the root. A first inversion can be 3-5-1 (more common) or 3-1-5.


No, 3 1 5 is not usually considered a first inversion triad. Here is a C major triad in root position as well as first and second inversions:

R: 1 3 5
1: 3 5 1
2: 5 1 3

For the 1st inversion we have the notes E G C; if we play it 3 1 5, however, we wind up with E C G, which will really sound more like an Emin6. That triad will not sound like it's based in C major; yes, you could technically call it a C/E, but the tonality will not reflect that of the original triad. It's a different voicing, yes, but not usually considered an inversion.