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#1
Ok I ve just seen a post about Is an a# the same as Bb, and people are saying there are notes such as E#. How is this possible and how do u play these on a guitar??
#2
It would be pretty hard, next to impossible on guitar but with a synth it can be done. Microtones ftw


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#3
there is no such thing as E# and B#, thats very basic music theory

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#5
Quote by apmaman
It would be pretty hard, next to impossible on guitar but with a synth it can be done. Microtones ftw



LOL, your mildly retarded i think.

E# and B# are enharmonics for F and C respectively...
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#7
^^^^ wrong, if you do some deeper research you might get suprised.
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#8
Quote by Tyler Durden
there is no such thing as E# and B#, thats very basic music theory


There is...

E# and B# exist in the Key of C# major
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#11
Quote by `NeXxuS`
that's not E#, or B# however, so your still mildly retarded.



Well I would always assume that to get E# which would be between E and F on a keyboard you would need to use a Microtone since the space between those is a Semi-tone.


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#12
OMG BREAKING DISCOVERY! E# IS F!
and theres nothing wrong with the first thing, a# is Bb
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#14
Quote by `NeXxuS`
you would assume wrong.



Then I guess that everything I was taught in my music classes was also wrong?


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#16
I already explained it...

# or b raises or lowers a tone a semi-tone therefore E#=F B#=C, and they exist within the key of C# major.
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#17
E# AND B# EXIST, but they're the same as saying F and C respectivly. It's the same that Bb and A# they are diferent just in the name, theoricaly, they sound equaly
#18
Quote by apmaman
Then I guess that everything I was taught in my music classes was also wrong?


no just that...

also, explore the possibility that your just mistaken.

For future reference, a semi-tone is a half step in western music, and has nothing to do with micro-tonality.
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#19
Quote by `NeXxuS`
I already explained it...

# or b raises or lowers a tone a semi-tone therefore E#=F B#=C, and they exist within the key of C# major.


E#'s in F# major too but yeah, I think this guy's correct.
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#20
Quote by mz44_d
E#'s in F# major too but yeah, I think this guy's correct.


yep... thats another key its in.
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#21
Wow you guys... Seriously.

E# and B# are NOT enharmonic notes in non twelve tone-equal temperament music systems. In tunings like lucy tuning they exist as microtonal increments between other notes, as do all notes that would normally be enharmonic.

THEY DO exist in twelve tone-equal temperment systems. They are merely enharmonic to F and C respectably, however they do exist and are used in purposes of theory.
#22
Quote by `NeXxuS`
LOL, your mildly retarded i think.

E# and B# are enharmonics for F and C respectively...


yeah, i had this arguement with some who knows a LOT more about music theory than me and you're right, i still don't know what enharmonics are but i know that i was wrong
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#23
Quote by frusciante39
yeah, i had this arguement with some who knows a LOT more about music theory than me and you're right, i still don't know what enharmonics are but i know that i was wrong


enharmonics are seperate names for the same pitch.

440 = A right? but you could call 440 Gx or Bbb, those are enharmonics.
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#24
enharmonics are just when different note NAMES have the same PITCH
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#25
Quote by `NeXxuS`
I already explained it...

# or b raises or lowers a tone a semi-tone therefore E#=F B#=C, and they exist within the key of C# major.


E# = F in equal temperament music (where diminished seconds are tuned 1:1).

In Just Intonation (where perfect fifths are tuned 3:2, which is rarely used anymore) E# is actually about a quarter of a semitone sharp of F (I have the math to prove this if you don't believe me).
#26
I'm sure your probably right... but since when we're we talking about Just Intonation?
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#27
Quote by `NeXxuS`
I'm sure your probably right... but since when we're we talking about Just Intonation?


It does not make sense to talk about Equal Temperament, without examining an alternative, the most common being Just Intonation.
#28
Quote by Jon Bloor
Ok I ve just seen a post about Is an a# the same as Bb, and people are saying there are notes such as E#. How is this possible and how do u play these on a guitar??



E# = 1/2 step higher than E.
B# = 1/2 step higher than B

so when you play these, they will be in frets that you normally view as being something else. its no different than if you were to play a note on the 6th string 4th fret. It could be G#, it could be Ab..... just depends on the key.

E# ... play what you normally consider to be F

B# .... play what you normally consider to be C


its as simple as that.
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#29
Quote by Jon Bloor
Ok I ve just seen a post about Is an a# the same as Bb, and people are saying there are notes such as E#. How is this possible and how do u play these on a guitar??
EDIT: whoa, a lot of people posted the right or at least "more correct" answers. I should have refreshed this page.

I think your confusing yourself Jon Bloor. And E# is NOT in betweeen E and F. It sounds the same tone as F. So...you would play it on guitar on the 1st fret 6th string...and any other "F" fret.

The "why two names for the same note???" question is totally understandable. In super-short summary, it exists so that:
1) Music can be read and interpreted easier
2) So that keys can be shared by different instruments
3) Because of the development of musical notation trying to live harmoniously with a varied history of tunings. (eg. The decision that theoretical middle A should sound a pitch of 440hz)

No-doubt you may be still confused. So be sure to look up "enharmonics" and ask if you have any more questions.
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#30
Quote by `NeXxuS`
LOL, your mildly retarded i think.

E# and B# are enharmonics for F and C respectively...

That
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#31
Quote by apmaman

dude that not related to the topic
besides you CAN do microtones on the guitar
just tune a bit or with bends
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#32
the notes on a guitar are just
A - A# - B - C - C# - D - D# - E - F - F# - G - G#
#33
Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enharmonic.

The scale of F♯ major is: 'F♯, G♯, A♯, B, C♯, D♯, E♯, (F♯'; thus we use the term 'A♯' instead of 'B♭' as we need the name 'B' to represent the 'B' note in the scale, and 'E♯' instead of 'F' as we need the name 'F' to represent the 'F♯' note in the scale.

/thread
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#34
Quote by rage6945
OMG BREAKING DISCOVERY! E# IS F!
and theres nothing wrong with the first thing, a# is Bb


"Breaking discovery", you're completely wrong! E# is not F, A# is not Bb.

TS: They're the same pitch on equal-tempered instruments, but they have different applications. For example, take an A augmented triad, built from scale degrees 1 #3 #5. It's written A C# E#. Writing A C# F, though it would sound the same, is quite wrong as that's an Aaddb6 chord. They have different applications.

Quote by Tyler Durden
there is no such thing as E# and B#, thats very basic music theory

Sigged, thank you!
Last edited by :-D at Mar 29, 2008,
#35
Quote by :-D
"Breaking discovery", you're completely wrong! E# is not F, A# is not Bb.

TS: They're the same pitch on equal-tempered instruments, but they have different applications. For example, take an A augmented triad, built from scale degrees 1 #3 #5. It's written A C# E#. Writing A C# F, though it would sound the same, is quite wrong as that's an A6 chord. They have different applications.


Sigged, thank you!



A C# F isn't an A6 chord; A6 has a F#
#37
There's no simple way to put it.

There are virtually infinite different potential pitches. This includes F# and B##. Consider a # to be a decimal point. You could do it with a whole number, but you want to be that tiny bit more exact...

However, the general rule of western music is equal temperment. This means that there are 12 notes to an octave, those being:

C, C#, D, D#, E, F, F#, G, G#, A, A#, B

Basically western music decided to take out all the decimals and make each note one point which all adds up to twelve.

The notes could have been called:

A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L

But it isn't. The name of the note is just a method for easy referral, the unique sound it gives is the only thing that matters.
#38
Quote by colohue


The notes could have been called:

A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L

But it isn't. The name of the note is just a method for easy referral, the unique sound it gives is the only thing that matters.


I'd have preferred it.
#39
Quote by Avedas
I'd have preferred it.


I wouldn't, but you are entitled to your own opinion. Care to explain why?
#40
Quote by Avedas
I'd have preferred it.


I wouldn't...

If that were the case, you would have to spend a lot more time focusing on the patterns of whole and half steps to figure out what key something is in, like, whole whole half whole whole whole half. I find it a lot easier to just work with the circle of fifths and the standard key signature system to figure out what key something is in rather than finding which root note matches up with WWHWWWH.

Also, then the parallels between thirds and sixths, fourths and fifths, and sevenths and seconds would be lost. The perfect -> perfect and major -> minor inversion patterns would not longer be a practical way of thinking about it.

And would you really rather have the key of C major be, instead of CDEFGAB, CEGHJLB? Which is more intuitive?
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