#1
"2.1 Modes Feelings.
Each mode of the major scale can create it's own, individual sound. However, you can only accomplish this sound by learning the theory behind modes. So what do I mean, "individual sounds"? Well, Each one of those 7 modes can, if used properly, sound distinctive. Guitarists use modes in to suit the feeling of the song they are trying to write. If they are trying to write a happy song, they'll use a certain mode, if they try to give the song a sad sound, they'll use another mode. And so on."

by Logz

This is from a lesson about modes posted here on UG. What I don't get is how can you get a happy sound and the opposite sad sound even though you are not only using the same notes but also the same succession.

C ionian: C D E F G A B C
D dorian: D E F G A B C D
E phrygian: E F G A B C D E
F lydian: F G A B C D E F
G mixolydian: G A B C D E F G
A aeolian: A B C D E F G A
B locrian: B C D E F G A B

by succession I mean the C is always followed by a D and the D is always followed by an E and so on.

How do you get different feelings??!!
TESTAMENT, SCAR SYMMETRY......SELF EXPLANATORY


ALEX SKOLNICK, PER NILSSON........ADULATION MANDATORY


Gear: JACKSON RR3


Member#25 of the IRON MAIDEN ARE GODS CLUB. PM Revelations to Join
#2
It all depends on the root.

Try it yourself and listen.

Find a song in C major and A minor. Both use exactly the same notes, but sound very different.
'Breaking the law' by Judas Priest and 'Let it be' by the Beatles are the first that come to mind.
#4
by succession I mean the C is always followed by a D and the D is always followed by an E and so on.

A scale/modes is a collection of notes, not an order of notes. You don't have to play E after D, you could play a phrase that goes B E F# G D A if you want. That would still be E Aeolian.
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#5
Quote by breakstuff



by succession I mean the C is always followed by a D and the D is always followed by an E and so on.

How do you get different feelings??!!


I'll try a simple explanation:

Number the 1st note in any "succession" as 1, then the next note 2 then 3, 4 ,5 6,
7.

You now have each letter corresponding to a different number 1 thru 7. Those
are your SCALE DEGREES.

A scale degree implies a unique function for that note when that scale is used.

THAT's why they all sound different.

C has scale degree 1 in C Ionian, and scale degree 7 in D dorian. Therefore C
has a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT function in C Ionian vs D Dorian.
#6
because C ionian is implied by a Cmaj chord Ddorian is implied by a Dmin6 chord and so on and so forth for the modes

the progression determines the mode
song stuck in my head today


#7
Quote by lbc_sublime
because C ionian is implied by a Cmaj chord Ddorian is implied by a Dmin6 chord and so on and so forth for the modes

the progression determines the mode


.... Or lack thereof.

Modes ussually utilize tonic vamps, with added tones to emphasize the modality. Progressions are rare in modal music.
#9
different intervals

for example:

C Ionian:

C (whole step) D (whole step) E (half) F (whole) G (whole) A (whole) B (half) C

and thus the formula for Ionian mode would be: W W H W W W H

now let's look at D Dorian:

D (whole) E (half) F (whole) G (whole) A (whole) B (half) C (whole) D

and the formula would be: W H W W W H W

see the difference when it's compared with C Ionian?

and thus different feelings.

Allow me to tell you why:

In any Ionian mode, doesn't matter C or D or E, it contains a Major Third, in C Ionian, the major third is E

however in the Dorian mode, again, doesn't have to be D Dorian, it can be C Dorian, but the notes would be different from C Ionian.

C Dorian: C D Eb F G A Bb C - see, its different,

anyway, you see, the third in Dorian mode is a minor, so the "feel" is different.

Play around with those modes on your guitar and you'll feel it.
peanuts and beers
#10
THX guys.
TESTAMENT, SCAR SYMMETRY......SELF EXPLANATORY


ALEX SKOLNICK, PER NILSSON........ADULATION MANDATORY


Gear: JACKSON RR3


Member#25 of the IRON MAIDEN ARE GODS CLUB. PM Revelations to Join
#11
Ignore modes for now. Modes are entirely different from key based music and are only used in very special situations when one is specifically called for.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#12
I thought modes were a must for lead guitar players?
TESTAMENT, SCAR SYMMETRY......SELF EXPLANATORY


ALEX SKOLNICK, PER NILSSON........ADULATION MANDATORY


Gear: JACKSON RR3


Member#25 of the IRON MAIDEN ARE GODS CLUB. PM Revelations to Join
#14
Quote by Ænimus Prime
You could play a phrase that goes B E F# G D A if you want. That would still be E Aeolian.


Now im confused

If the root note is B wouldn't that be B Aeolian? :s

And is this the same for normal scales as well?
#15
From an old lesson of mine, thought this might help:

the Modal Concept:

Modes and Scales can be traced back to Greek origins, where different tribes evolved different scales...

The scales ran down from a tonic note (rather than up which is the modern method) and maintained certain intervals between notes...

Two of the scales gave rise to the modern major and modern minor scales...

Each scale started on a different note and descended by characteristic intervals...

In the middle ages, the church adopted these scales, made them ascending from a tonic note and renamed them modes...

The Greek scales (and medieval modes) used only the natural notes (no sharps or flats) which are equivalent to the white notes of a piano...

This gives a characteristic interval between notes in the scale...

The modes of the Major scale are all based on Intervallic formulae, that are the same every time...a series of whole steps and half steps...

Whole=W / Major second interval / Whole step
Half=H / Minor second interval / Half step

The Major scale formula:

1st degree scale: W-W-H-W-W-W-H
2nd degree scale: W-H-W-W-W-H-W
3rd degree scale: H-W-W-W-H-W-W
4th degree scale: W-W-W-H-W-W-H
5th degree scale: W-W-H-W-W-H-W
6th degree scale: W-H-W-W-H-W-W
7th degree scale: H-W-W-H-W-W-W

Providing these intervals are maintained for a given mode, they can start on any note (including sharps and flats)...

(All keys can be converted to modes by applying the interval structure of that mode from the starting note (tonic)...)

Original Greek Scales

I II III IV V VI VII VIII
Ionian C B A G F E D C
Dorian D C B A G F E D
Phrygian E D C B A G F E
Lydian F E D C B A G F
Mixolydian G F E D C B A G
Aeolian A G F E D C B A
Locrian B A G F E D C B

So,

The Major scale, started on each progressive note in the scale, begins the consecutive modes...

Out of that, the pattern of intervals defines each mode...

Emotional Evocations and Cultural Associations/Origins of the Modes:

A good place to start in understanding the different emotions evoked by the modes used in ancient Greece is by looking at the writings of Aristotle...

There are earlier writings, but the most important ones come from about 350BC...

The philosophy writings of both Plato and Aristotle include large sections that describe the effect of different musical modes (scales) on mood and even on character formation....

For example, this quote from Aristotle's "Politics":

"The musical modes differ essentially from one another, and those
who hear them are differently affected by each. Some of them make men sadand grave, like the so called Mixolydian; others enfeeble the mind, likethe relaxed modes; another, again, produces a moderate or settled temper,which appears to be the peculiar effect of the Dorian; and the Phrygian inspires enthusiasm."

Both Plato and Aristotle insisted that the modes to which a person listened molded the person's character...even made the person more or less fit for certain jobs...

They termed it the 'ethos of music.'...

So concepts like "rock 'n roll can rot your mind" are not really so new after all...

Arranged in order of brightness, the modes:

Lydian, Ionian, Mixolydian, Dorian, Aeolian, Phrygian, Locrian

Lydian: has an ethereal, and other-worldly quality that is often used when desiring to create a sense of moving forward emotionally...
qualifying tones: 3, 7 and #11
Common bright scale tone: 6

Ionian: has a solid and positive quality that is often used to evoke happiness...
qualifying tones: 3 and 7
Common bright scale tone: 6

Mixolydian: has a bright, yet darker quality, with a more provocative application...
qualifying tones: 3 and b7
Common bright scale tone: 6

Dorian: has a darker tone, but still bright as the major 6th is still present...
qualifying tones: b3 and b7
Common bright scale tone: 6

Aeolian: Dark and evoking sadness with the first appearance of the b6
qualifying tones: b3, b7
Common dark scale tone: b6

Phrygian: A dark and haunting mode with not only the b6, but the b2...evoking a Spanish sound...
qualifying tones: b3, b7
Common dark scale tone: b6

Locrian: The darkest of the modes
qualifying tones: b3, b5, b7
Common dark scale tone: b6

I can explain, why the minor key is "sad", or more accurately, why it evokes a richer or wider range of emotions than the "bright" major key...

In brief, the 3rd note of the major scale is the note which, if made flatter, will essentially create the minor scale...

(The 6th note should also be flattened to avoid dissonance or to balance the minor third in the scale...)

The major 3rd is less sad (or the minor 3rd is more sad) simply because the major 3rd is more harmonious than the minor third, which has a more complex ratio of vibrations...

In other words (plain English), the minor is more on the edge of discord than is the major...

While the diatonic is found in much of the world, including Africa and the near East, the Pentatonic scale predominates, or even exclusively, in a huge part of the non-European world (along with many other non-pentatonic nor diatonic scales)...

People raised on the music built by scales like these become used to them and the scales are entwined in the cultural matrix of the culture for many generations...

There are many books containing exotic scales that have a more direct link, at least psychologically, to the various cultures...

hope this helps...

All the best,

Scott


#16
Quote by breakstuff
I thought modes were a must for lead guitar players?


No. Not at all.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#17
Quote by breakstuff
I thought modes were a must for lead guitar players?

common misconception. People think whats holding them back is not knowing the modes, really its most likely the box patterns you're stuck in
#18
Quote by Scott Jones
From an old lesson of mine, thought this might help:

the Modal Concept:

Modes and Scales can be traced back to Greek origins, where different tribes evolved different scales...

The scales ran down from a tonic note (rather than up which is the modern method) and maintained certain intervals between notes...

Two of the scales gave rise to the modern major and modern minor scales...

Each scale started on a different note and descended by characteristic intervals...

In the middle ages, the church adopted these scales, made them ascending from a tonic note and renamed them modes...

The Greek scales (and medieval modes) used only the natural notes (no sharps or flats) which are equivalent to the white notes of a piano...

This gives a characteristic interval between notes in the scale...

The modes of the Major scale are all based on Intervallic formulae, that are the same every time...a series of whole steps and half steps...

Whole=W / Major second interval / Whole step
Half=H / Minor second interval / Half step

The Major scale formula:

1st degree scale: W-W-H-W-W-W-H
2nd degree scale: W-H-W-W-W-H-W
3rd degree scale: H-W-W-W-H-W-W
4th degree scale: W-W-W-H-W-W-H
5th degree scale: W-W-H-W-W-H-W
6th degree scale: W-H-W-W-H-W-W
7th degree scale: H-W-W-H-W-W-W

Providing these intervals are maintained for a given mode, they can start on any note (including sharps and flats)...

(All keys can be converted to modes by applying the interval structure of that mode from the starting note (tonic)...)

Original Greek Scales

I II III IV V VI VII VIII
Ionian C B A G F E D C
Dorian D C B A G F E D
Phrygian E D C B A G F E
Lydian F E D C B A G F
Mixolydian G F E D C B A G
Aeolian A G F E D C B A
Locrian B A G F E D C B

So,

The Major scale, started on each progressive note in the scale, begins the consecutive modes...

Out of that, the pattern of intervals defines each mode...

Emotional Evocations and Cultural Associations/Origins of the Modes:

A good place to start in understanding the different emotions evoked by the modes used in ancient Greece is by looking at the writings of Aristotle...

There are earlier writings, but the most important ones come from about 350BC...

The philosophy writings of both Plato and Aristotle include large sections that describe the effect of different musical modes (scales) on mood and even on character formation....

For example, this quote from Aristotle's "Politics":

"The musical modes differ essentially from one another, and those
who hear them are differently affected by each. Some of them make men sadand grave, like the so called Mixolydian; others enfeeble the mind, likethe relaxed modes; another, again, produces a moderate or settled temper,which appears to be the peculiar effect of the Dorian; and the Phrygian inspires enthusiasm."

Both Plato and Aristotle insisted that the modes to which a person listened molded the person's character...even made the person more or less fit for certain jobs...

They termed it the 'ethos of music.'...

So concepts like "rock 'n roll can rot your mind" are not really so new after all...

Arranged in order of brightness, the modes:

Lydian, Ionian, Mixolydian, Dorian, Aeolian, Phrygian, Locrian

Lydian: has an ethereal, and other-worldly quality that is often used when desiring to create a sense of moving forward emotionally...
qualifying tones: 3, 7 and #11
Common bright scale tone: 6

Ionian: has a solid and positive quality that is often used to evoke happiness...
qualifying tones: 3 and 7
Common bright scale tone: 6

Mixolydian: has a bright, yet darker quality, with a more provocative application...
qualifying tones: 3 and b7
Common bright scale tone: 6

Dorian: has a darker tone, but still bright as the major 6th is still present...
qualifying tones: b3 and b7
Common bright scale tone: 6

Aeolian: Dark and evoking sadness with the first appearance of the b6
qualifying tones: b3, b7
Common dark scale tone: b6

Phrygian: A dark and haunting mode with not only the b6, but the b2...evoking a Spanish sound...
qualifying tones: b3, b7
Common dark scale tone: b6

Locrian: The darkest of the modes
qualifying tones: b3, b5, b7
Common dark scale tone: b6

I can explain, why the minor key is "sad", or more accurately, why it evokes a richer or wider range of emotions than the "bright" major key...

In brief, the 3rd note of the major scale is the note which, if made flatter, will essentially create the minor scale...

(The 6th note should also be flattened to avoid dissonance or to balance the minor third in the scale...)

The major 3rd is less sad (or the minor 3rd is more sad) simply because the major 3rd is more harmonious than the minor third, which has a more complex ratio of vibrations...

In other words (plain English), the minor is more on the edge of discord than is the major...

While the diatonic is found in much of the world, including Africa and the near East, the Pentatonic scale predominates, or even exclusively, in a huge part of the non-European world (along with many other non-pentatonic nor diatonic scales)...

People raised on the music built by scales like these become used to them and the scales are entwined in the cultural matrix of the culture for many generations...

There are many books containing exotic scales that have a more direct link, at least psychologically, to the various cultures...

hope this helps...

All the best,

Scott



Thank you so much, that was very informative and helpful.
TESTAMENT, SCAR SYMMETRY......SELF EXPLANATORY


ALEX SKOLNICK, PER NILSSON........ADULATION MANDATORY


Gear: JACKSON RR3


Member#25 of the IRON MAIDEN ARE GODS CLUB. PM Revelations to Join
#19
Quote by Bornlivedie UK
Now im confused

If the root note is B wouldn't that be B Aeolian? :s


Either that or Phrygian, but there was nothing about that line the way he wrote it that implies that B was the bass note.
#20
Quote by breakstuff
"2.1 Modes Feelings.
Each mode of the major scale can create it's own, individual sound. However, you can only accomplish this sound by learning the theory behind modes. So what do I mean, "individual sounds"? Well, Each one of those 7 modes can, if used properly, sound distinctive. Guitarists use modes in to suit the feeling of the song they are trying to write. If they are trying to write a happy song, they'll use a certain mode, if they try to give the song a sad sound, they'll use another mode. And so on."

by Logz

This is from a lesson about modes posted here on UG. What I don't get is how can you get a happy sound and the opposite sad sound even though you are not only using the same notes but also the same succession.

C ionian: C D E F G A B C
D dorian: D E F G A B C D
E phrygian: E F G A B C D E
F lydian: F G A B C D E F
G mixolydian: G A B C D E F G
A aeolian: A B C D E F G A
B locrian: B C D E F G A B

by succession I mean the C is always followed by a D and the D is always followed by an E and so on.

How do you get different feelings??!!



i agree. i studied my theory intensely for a long time, but i never succeded in understanding the point to modes. People LOVE them and say each mode has a unique sound, but to me ITS ALL THE SAME SCALE, im just starting on a different root.

phrygian doesnt sound spanish to me, it sounds like a major scale starting on the ****ing third.(i think). when it came time where i wanted to develope certain sounds and moods. I stopped learning theory and just started playing what i felt.
If you dont find theory interesting, then DONT study it. IF your TRULY serious about playing guitar(enjoying), then EVENTUALLY you WILL WANT to study it.
#21
Using modes is about establishing the tonal center...and staying there. Now, while actually using modes is very limiting, you can get the sound found in modes in a section of a key-based piece. For instance, in Under The Bridge by RHCP, the key(until the outro) is E major. In the chorus(I think it's what would be called the chorus, the part that goes, "I don't ever wanna feel/Like I did that day"), the progression is F#m Emaj, Bmaj F#m. It does have a somewhat Dorian sound.
#22
Quote by Manjinken
phrygian doesnt sound spanish to me, it sounds like a major scale starting on the ****ing third.(i think). when it came time where i wanted to develope certain sounds and moods. I stopped learning theory and just started playing what i felt.
You're playing it wrong; it absolutely sounds Spanish.