#1
This is a sticky subject, and i can never quite get all the answers that i am looking for but here it goes.

I have a 16 ohm head(orange Tiny Terror) that has 1-16 ohm output, and 2-8 ohm outputs. i also have 1 orange 2x12 cabinet(rated at 16 ohms) and 1 4x12 peavey cabinet(rated at 16 ohms). The TT sounds pretty good when you just run the 16 ohm output to 1 of these cabinets at a time(obviously because the impedance is matching). But when you run both the cabinets through the 8 ohm outputs the tone is just sucked out(i am missing my harmonics, sustain and feedback).

My question is this: if i hooked up 2 8-ohm speaker cabinets to the orange would that match impedance and bring back the tone i am missing when running 2 cabs out of the one head?

Did i say 1 question? i lied. I also have a question about my THD bivalve(yes i have a class A tube amp fetish) that has adjustable impedence. Particularly it has 2 settings: 8 & 16, or 4 & 2(ohms of course). If i do get a cabinet for this what are the benefits of me getting a higher or lower impedance cab. It seems most guitar cabinets tend to be 16 ohm, but i have heard lower impedance cabinets are louder(like if i ran my bivalve at the 4 ohm impedance with a matched 4 ohm cabinet it would be louder?) does runing at lower impedence suck tone?

in case you care, right now i run the bivalve through the peavey 4x12(thick birch construction loaded with celestian G12K-85's) and the orange TT through the orange 2x12(V30's, birch as well) and use an A/B box to mix and match. G12K's fill out the low end nice with the V30's(don't really care for the G12K's on their own too much). One amp per cabinet sounds great and gives me all my tone, but i am thinking about getting a Dr. Z 2x12 cab and you can custom order speaker combinations and impedence ratings from him, so i need to get educated.
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#2
this is relevant to my interests
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#3
The two 8 ohm speaker outs on the Orange are designed to run a pair of 16 ohm cabs in parallel. Do not run two 8 ohm cabs thru there, as that would be a 4 ohm load. You can run one 8 ohm cab into one of the inputs, but you already have a 16 ohm cab, so that shouldn't be an issue for you.

In general, the higher the ohms the better when you have a choice, as it maximizes the windings on the transformer. But if you like to tweak your tone, it may be fun for you to get something other than a 16 ohm cab to play with....

However, if I were getting a Dr. Z cab with your amps, I'd get a 16 ohm one. Toy with your tone with a cheaper/used cab.
You Don't Need a halfstack.

You Don't Need 100W.

Quote by jj1565
i love you slats.
#4
alright, is there a sticky or a thread link that explains in more detail what exactly maximizing the "windings of a transformer" and it's relevance with impedance(and more importantly, the tone)? i am not so bad that i don't know what a transformer is(transfers energy between circuits) or what it is for(can change voltage or current sympathetically between the circuits by adding loads and changing windings and the such), or what the windings do(dictates the size of the magnetic field of the respective circuit), but i would like to know more on exactly how it unfluences your tone.

also, isn't running an unmatched cab with my head potentially destructive to the amplifier? do i need to worry about burning out the 16 ohm head if i run a 4 ohm or 8 ohm cabinet to it?

i definitely appreciate the reply slatsmania
punk isn't dead, it's always smelled that way.

"A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem."
-ae
#5
i've done a bit of research, looking around and guessing and the such.

now from what i can tell there is at least 2 transformers on your tube amp, there is one that conditions the power from your wall to your tubes. now the power out of your wall is at 120V(i live in america btw) and the tubes in your amp requites as much as ~400+ volts(400V at the tube plate anode and 5V-7V at the filament cathode). now evidently the signal coming from this amplifier circuit is a high impedance energy and there needs to be another transformer to condition the high impedance electric energy from the power stage of the tubes to the relatively low impedance of the speaker coil.

so what i take from this is the higher the impedance of the speaker box the closer to the original signal from the power stage of the amp, and this is why the-higher-the-impedance of-a-cabinet-the-better-it-sounds rule comes from?

i am not stating this as fact, i am more or less asking if this train of thought is correct.

now there is ways to wire even 2x12 cabinets up to like 32 ohms(2 16 ohm speakers in series), why aren't there any amps that output at a higher impedance like that? would this not give you 'better' tone since this impedence would be closer to the output of the amp? and i still haven't gotten answer about the relative loudness of lower impedence cabinets, is it true that a variable impedance amp run at 4 ohms instead of 16 ohms(with a respectively matching cabinets of course) will sound louder? does running at a lower impedance suck tone?

questions still abound, i am still a bit at a loss. help me find the light.
punk isn't dead, it's always smelled that way.

"A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem."
-ae
#6
Quote by gumbilicious
i've done a bit of research, looking around and guessing and the such.

now from what i can tell there is at least 2 transformers on your tube amp, there is one that conditions the power from your wall to your tubes. now the power out of your wall is at 120V(i live in america btw) and the tubes in your amp requites as much as ~400+ volts(400V at the tube plate anode and 5V-7V at the filament cathode). now evidently the signal coming from this amplifier circuit is a high impedance energy and there needs to be another transformer to condition the high impedance electric energy from the power stage of the tubes to the relatively low impedance of the speaker coil.

so what i take from this is the higher the impedance of the speaker box the closer to the original signal from the power stage of the amp, and this is why the-higher-the-impedance of-a-cabinet-the-better-it-sounds rule comes from?

i am not stating this as fact, i am more or less asking if this train of thought is correct.

now there is ways to wire even 2x12 cabinets up to like 32 ohms(2 16 ohm speakers in series), why aren't there any amps that output at a higher impedance like that? would this not give you 'better' tone since this impedence would be closer to the output of the amp? and i still haven't gotten answer about the relative loudness of lower impedence cabinets, is it true that a variable impedance amp run at 4 ohms instead of 16 ohms(with a respectively matching cabinets of course) will sound louder? does running at a lower impedance suck tone?

questions still abound, i am still a bit at a loss. help me find the light.
The answer is no. It is not correct. Your train of thought has severely derailed.
Meadows
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#7
of course i wouldn't mind if you would elaborate on your thought process, for alas i cannot see the light until someone brings me from my darkness, show me were i hath erred

btw, i am always wary of people who have sigs longer than there posts.
punk isn't dead, it's always smelled that way.

"A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem."
-ae
Last edited by gumbilicious at Apr 16, 2008,
#8
Quote by gumbilicious
The TT sounds pretty good when you just run the 16 ohm output to 1 of these cabinets at a time(obviously because the impedance is matching). But when you run both the cabinets through the 8 ohm outputs the tone is just sucked out(i am missing my harmonics, sustain and feedback).


Re-reading your thread, I think the culprit here may have nothing to do with impedance. It may be that the two speaker cabs are out of phase with each other. I run into this when I run an extension cab with one of my combos. The result isn't bad, but there is cancellation between the two speakers resulting in some tone loss that you could be describing as "tone sucking."

If each cab sounds better than the two together, that might be it.

Quote by gumbilicious
i've done a bit of research, looking around and guessing and the such.

now from what i can tell there is at least 2 transformers on your tube amp, there is one that conditions the power from your wall to your tubes. now the power out of your wall is at 120V(i live in america btw) and the tubes in your amp requites as much as ~400+ volts(400V at the tube plate anode and 5V-7V at the filament cathode). now evidently the signal coming from this amplifier circuit is a high impedance energy and there needs to be another transformer to condition the high impedance electric energy from the power stage of the tubes to the relatively low impedance of the speaker coil.

so what i take from this is the higher the impedance of the speaker box the closer to the original signal from the power stage of the amp, and this is why the-higher-the-impedance of-a-cabinet-the-better-it-sounds rule comes from?

i am not stating this as fact, i am more or less asking if this train of thought is correct.

now there is ways to wire even 2x12 cabinets up to like 32 ohms(2 16 ohm speakers in series), why aren't there any amps that output at a higher impedance like that? would this not give you 'better' tone since this impedence would be closer to the output of the amp? and i still haven't gotten answer about the relative loudness of lower impedence cabinets, is it true that a variable impedance amp run at 4 ohms instead of 16 ohms(with a respectively matching cabinets of course) will sound louder? does running at a lower impedance suck tone?

questions still abound, i am still a bit at a loss. help me find the light.


Your theory doesn't really sound to bad to me, but I don't have the definitive answer for you. They probably don't make amps of that impedance because it's just too much work for the amp to do. There may be a cut off point where the amp does start to lose power. I do know that with solid state amps that the power output in wattage is directly related to the ohm rating of the speakers they're connected to.
You Don't Need a halfstack.

You Don't Need 100W.

Quote by jj1565
i love you slats.
#9
Quote by slatsmania
Re-reading your thread, I think the culprit here may have nothing to do with impedance. It may be that the two speaker cabs are out of phase with each other. I run into this when I run an extension cab with one of my combos. The result isn't bad, but there is cancellation between the two speakers resulting in some tone loss that you could be describing as "tone sucking."

If each cab sounds better than the two together, that might be it.


Your theory doesn't really sound to bad to me, but I don't have the definitive answer for you. They probably don't make amps of that impedance because it's just too much work for the amp to do. There may be a cut off point where the amp does start to lose power. I do know that with solid state amps that the power output in wattage is directly related to the ohm rating of the speakers they're connected to.


from what i understand, and i beg anybody to correct me, solid state amps have a very lower output impedence, and don't really care what kinda speaker they go into, the impedence out of the amp is always lower than the speaker.

quote from wikipedia:
"Modern solid state audio amplifiers do not use matched impedances, contrary to myth. The driver amplifier has a low output impedance, such as < 0.1 ohm, and the loudspeaker usually has an input impedance of 4, 8, or 16 ohms, which is many times larger than the former. This type of connection is impedance bridging, and it provides better damping of the loudspeaker cone to minimize distortion."

i know someone out there knows this 'matching impedence' topic so well that answering this would probably bore them, but i would greatly admire that person for breaking me off a little knowledge

thx again slats
#10
SS is different again. Look at this bass amp.

You'll see under it's features:

"200W RMS @ 2 ohms and 150W RMS @ 4 ohms"

You never see that kind of power rating vs. resistance with tube amps, yet it's common with SS amps. Like this Crown power amp:

"900W per channel @ 2 ohms
750W @ 4 ohms
450W @ 8 ohms
1,645W @ 8 ohms bridged"

What does all this mean? I don't know. It's just different than tube amps which are designed to run at a specific impedance, and if they have selectable impedances, they all will run the amp at the same wattage.

Helpful? Making things worse?
You Don't Need a halfstack.

You Don't Need 100W.

Quote by jj1565
i love you slats.
#11
never thought about that before, then again i don't really own SS power amps, and i have one fender ultimate chorus i use as a 'portable' amp that i never think about. but i have noticed it before, it might have something to do with the fact that it is the 'impedence bridging' in stead of 'impedence matching' that wikipedia refers to. like, if you have a tube amp it is designed to be matched with a specific load, and if wikipedia is right then you can pretty much use any load you want with a ss amp, now both amps might change power output based on loads but the tube amp is designed to only be used with 1 fixed load so variable output is not an option, as is the case with a tube amp. that is probably why you never see variable output on tube amps. but bringing that up reminded me earlier of when i asked "is it true that a variable impedance amp run at 4 ohms instead of 16 ohms(with a respectively matching cabinets of course) will sound louder?" and it sounds like the answer is yes, because it would raise the power output; but like slats said, i too have never seen a power/impedence conversion chart for a tube amplifier. this again might be attributed to the 'impedence bridging' phenomenon, someone can set me straight and i would be happy

about the 2 cabs out of the out of 1 amplifier, i never thought about the cabs being out of phase, it sounds like a very viable explanation and explains quite a bit. it sounds like 2 of the more difficult questions have a quite plausible explanation now. thx again slats, your comments at the very least give me something to think about and offer good insight.