Page 1 of 2
#1
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080330/ap_on_re_eu/vatican_muslims

WARNING: Any comments in here that are racist, religiously intolerant, or bashing religion generally will be dealt with HARSHLY.

I think this topic has religious, social, and political implications, so was worthy of its own thread. I read this article and I thought it was interesting, especially since most of us on UG live in the very Christian "western world" and are generally ignorant of Islam, yet it seems to be spreading at a steady rate. Why do you think this is? What possible effect will this have on international relations? What social implications do you think it will have, especially in Western Europe and the US where Muslims are generally vilified? Do you think this development will cause, perhaps, a Vatican 3, further modernizing the Catholic church? Discuss.
Hi, I'm Peter
#2
christians still have the numbers dude
catholics are just one branch

edit: it even says that in the article
I want Super Saiyan abilities
#3
I found the Koran to be a more worthwhile read than the Bible, even though I'm far from a fan of either religion.

It's worth bearing in mind Islam is a younger religion than Christianity. It's also (correct me if I'm wrong here) more popular in nations with a quickly rising population than Christianity is - the latter is more popular in countries with a steady or slightly growing/falling population.
#4
The Catholic Church has needed modernizing for a while. Let women be priests and let priests marry. That'd be a good start.
I <3 bangoodcharlotte

Quote by humperdunk
one time i let my cat has cheezburger. i thought it was pretty funny.
#5
Well, in Malaysia:

If you marry a Muslim, you have to become a Muslim. Your children will be Muslims. Your descendants will be Muslims.

So it's easy to see how it permeates over here, at least.


Bear in mind that they can legally have 3 wives.
#6
I wonder who the lucky convert was who finally tipped the scale. He should win an assload of bacon to prove that his God hates him and Christianity is just a more ruthless form of Judaism.
#7
To the guy said that Christianity still has the numbers, that's fair enough, but Catholicism has been the world's most powerful organized religion since the Holy Roman Empire. It's definitely an important development on many levels, especially now when we live in an era of globalization and the "war on terror," when we're divided by more than just country borders and we're forced to deal with a culture that is foreign to us in more ways than just nationality.
Hi, I'm Peter
#9
^ Yeah, I did too. I read it yesterday, but Conan reminded me.
Quote by Mongoose87
The Catholic Church has needed modernizing for a while. Let women be priests and let priests marry. That'd be a good start.

It took about 500 years between Vatican 1 and Vatican 2, I wouldn't hold my breath.
Hi, I'm Peter
#10
This is stupid. It's probably completely inaccurate, seeing as though I bet there are a whole crapload of people out there who are Christian/Islamic/Catholic and haven't told anyone or participated in a sensus etc.
Quote by kriscornella2@g
I know i wish i was as cool as you and be into Sum 41 and Taking back Sunday. Gaylord.

Quote by civildp1
you should call one of the songs, "Respecting Old People" just to mix things up.

Quote by вяaи∂ иєw
You just made a very powerful enemy BenFoffenbock.
#11
Interesting.. I'm not a big fan of either religion, but I agree with you that the "western world" and are generally ignorant of Islam.
sup?
#12
Quote by Dirk Gently


It took about 500 years between Vatican 1 and Vatican 2, I wouldn't hold my breath.


I'm not. I'm Jewish
I <3 bangoodcharlotte

Quote by humperdunk
one time i let my cat has cheezburger. i thought it was pretty funny.
#13
Quote by BenFoffenbock
This is stupid. It's probably completely inaccurate, seeing as though I bet there are a whole crapload of people out there who are Christian/Islamic/Catholic and haven't told anyone or participated in a sensus etc.


by selecting indicative sample populatons and including methds to minise deviation from the normal i'd say that this is probably quite accurate........

also.... does it matter what the most wide spread religion is? did this study contrast to numbers of athiests? and most widespread doesnt mean the most dominant in terms of who has fingers in which pie(so to speak).........
Quote by Bubban
I once had a sudden urge to rape sheep in Scotland after watching CNN, that was pretty freaky.
#14
Quote by blackflag49
Ah-men.

And here's some more ideas..

-If Jesus preached poverty, humility, and chastity, then quit marching around your gilded Roman palaces, in colorful robes, while so much of the world starves.

-When a priest has sex with children, don't just shuttle him to another diocese.

-Stop electing stodgy old Sith Lords to lead the Church.



I can't help but feel this is less about Islam growing than Christianity in the Western world giving way to atheism.



Good, grasshopper.
I <3 bangoodcharlotte

Quote by humperdunk
one time i let my cat has cheezburger. i thought it was pretty funny.
#15
Well, Islam is the fastest growing religion. I don't know why poeple don't realize it, but Christianity has of lot similarities to Islam.
"The rule of law -- it must be held high! And if it falls you pick it up and hold it even higher!" - Hercule Poirot

© Soul Power
#16
Quote by Soul Power
Well, Islam is the fastest growing religion. I don't know why poeple don't realize it, but Christianity has of lot similarities to Islam.

Quite a few religions have similarities, actually.

I can't be bothered to look them all up, but there's plenty out there.
When you saw me sleeping
thought I was dreaming
of you...


I didn't tell you
That the only dream
Is Valium for me
#17
Quote by Mongoose87
The Catholic Church has needed modernizing for a while. Let women be priests and let priests marry. That'd be a good start.


Never.
You are like a hurricane
There's calm in your eye.
And I'm gettin' blown away
To somewhere safer
where the feeling stays.
I want to love you but
I'm getting blown away.
#18
Quote by Mongoose87
The Catholic Church has needed modernizing for a while. Let women be priests and let priests marry. That'd be a good start.


but..... but..... who would cook then??
#19
Quote by ldl67
Interesting.. I'm not a big fan of either religion, but I agree with you that the "western world" and are generally ignorant of Islam.



Just as the "Islamic World" is generally ignorant of the Western World.
#20
Its interesting though.. Islam is dragged through the mud because of Extremists like Al-Qaeda, and the Western World is dragged through the mud because of American foreign policy.

If only most religious people weren't so arrogant and could see that true religion is about Love and Peace. Not War.
#21
Islam is growing at an astounding rate. I've heard some statistics which say that France will be majority Muslim by 2020, and that scares me.
#22
Quote by Grundy0
Islam is growing at an astounding rate. I've heard some statistics which say that France will be majority Muslim by 2020, and that scares me.


1. Did you see what Germany did to France in WW1 and WW2?

2. Have you seen what Germany is doing to the Islamic populations in their Country? (expelling them from neighbourhoods/deporting them..same with the Turks)

3. Have you seen what most Islamic/Muslims have to say about the USA/Germany? (they despise both countries as "Catholic harlots"...this of course is based on only those Islamic people who are very extreme...I've never heard of a Catholic taping bombs to himself and yelling "Hallelujah God is Great" and blowing up a bunch of innocent people in a marketplace)

4. The USA and Germany vs France = No muslim population
#23
Christianity is too liberal imo. You don't see muslim teenagers blaspheme Allah. No. Christians allow their kids to have shallow faiths. I think not everyone even knows why Jesus died for our sins, tbh, i only found out about it in my 9th year in school. In other words, we Christians seem to be Christians only as some sort of namesake. Most of us don't apply Jesus' teaching on our life and morals. All we understand is that we just pray and pray and pray the Our Father and we go to heaven. This is why many Christian Teenagers turn Atheist. I for one turned to one before but then reverted back after I understood the real meaning of Christianity.

This all started in Vatican 2.
Quote by DrkNTwstd
darkangel, you are a smart man. no flame shield is necessary.


Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore"
#24
Islam is in general a fairly good thing. Yet, it's own followers know very little of their own teachings. For example I've actually heard Imams argue that if the Muslims lowered themselves to our level by using terrorist attacks etc, and get some BS excuse back. Seems to me a lot of the extremists are using the belief as some cover for making attacks at the west. Just my two cents.

(Of course this does not count for all Muslims, as the ones who actually believe and don't just use it for their own gain are awesome)

(And for anyone worrying, Christianity does relate very heavily to Islam on a lot of levels, so imho that's fairly hypocritical.)

EDIT: "For the first time in history, we are no longer at the top: Muslims have overtaken us,"

What!? So I guess Judaism, Greek Mythology, Norse Mythology etc- never existed, huh?
#25
I wish they included the statistics on more religions. It would be interesting to find out how close the numbers really are. I know that Hinduism is one of the largest, but just for curiosities sake I'd like to see Buddhism, Judaism, etc...
#26
Quote by darkangel24
Christianity is too liberal imo. You don't see muslim teenagers blaspheme Allah. No. Christians allow their kids to have shallow faiths. I think not everyone even knows why Jesus died for our sins, tbh, i only found out about it in my 9th year in school. In other words, we Christians seem to be Christians only as some sort of namesake. Most of us don't apply Jesus' teaching on our life and morals. All we understand is that we just pray and pray and pray the Our Father and we go to heaven. This is why many Christian Teenagers turn Atheist. I for one turned to one before but then reverted back after I understood the real meaning of Christianity.

This all started in Vatican 2.


See this is a very valid point, but what about when a religion isn't liberal enough? The problem arises that we see in Islam. People blowing up others, murdering, torturing and invoking Allah's name in relation to violence.

It is the polar opposite of what you have sited and in my opinion is a much greater problem than a few sacriligeous teenagers in America. At least we don't hear about Catholic extremists blowing themselves up for "Jesus".
#27
Quote by MeltingWaxFace
See this is a very valid point, but what about when a religion isn't liberal enough? The problem arises that we see in Islam. People blowing up others, murdering, torturing and invoking Allah's name in relation to violence.

It is the polar opposite of what you have sited and in my opinion is a much greater problem than a few sacriligeous teenagers in America. At least we don't hear about Catholic extremists blowing themselves up for "Jesus".


Yeah you're right. But these Islam extremists misunderstand the now changed meaning of 'Jihad'. If I remember correctly, Islam changed it from physical fighting for the name of Allah to spiritual fighting for the name of Allah. This should be made clear for Muslims. If they want to really follow Allah, they won't literally die for Him.

I dunno the problem with Christianity but I guess that that believers count would have been less if you count the authentic believers. Christianity's problem is that they force people to believe, resulting in a very shallow faith just for the sake of being one.
Quote by DrkNTwstd
darkangel, you are a smart man. no flame shield is necessary.


Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore"
#29
Quote by darkangel24
Christianity is too liberal imo. You don't see muslim teenagers blaspheme Allah. No. Christians allow their kids to have shallow faiths. I think not everyone even knows why Jesus died for our sins, tbh, i only found out about it in my 9th year in school. In other words, we Christians seem to be Christians only as some sort of namesake. Most of us don't apply Jesus' teaching on our life and morals. All we understand is that we just pray and pray and pray the Our Father and we go to heaven. This is why many Christian Teenagers turn Atheist. I for one turned to one before but then reverted back after I understood the real meaning of Christianity.

This all started in Vatican 2.


I'd like to think I understand Christianity fairy well. According to the Bible, all you have to do is have faith in Jesus/God and you will go to heaven, as Jesus died for our sins.

Yet. Catholics have for some strange reason gotten it into their heads that we have to go to confession, and redeem ourselves from our sins that way. Now, this confuses me. A lot. Why on Earth would we have to do this, when Jesus already died for our sins? I get the sneaking suspicion that this was so that Catholics could use it to spread fear and obedience into the masses, and also of course so that they could take money from people to allow them into heaven. (The very premise of this goes against the fundamentals of their own religion, which makes this almost blasphemic. Imho.)

Quote by MeltingWaxFace
See this is a very valid point, but what about when a religion isn't liberal enough? The problem arises that we see in Islam. People blowing up others, murdering, torturing and invoking Allah's name in relation to violence.

It is the polar opposite of what you have sited and in my opinion is a much greater problem than a few sacriligeous teenagers in America. At least we don't hear about Catholic extremists blowing themselves up for "Jesus".


It's not the religion that isn't liberal enough, it's its followers.
#30
Quote by darkangel24

I dunno the problem with Christianity but I guess that that believers count would have been less if you count the authentic believers. Christianity's problem is that they force people to believe, resulting in a very shallow faith just for the sake of being one.





Exactly. Well said. There are so many "Christians" that say it just so they can sleep at night because they think they're going to Heaven.
#31
Quote by JilaX^
I'd like to think I understand Christianity fairy well. According to the Bible, all you have to do is have faith in Jesus/God and you will go to heaven, as Jesus died for our sins.

Yet. Catholics have for some strange reason gotten it into their heads that we have to go to confession, and redeem ourselves from our sins that way. Now, this confuses me. A lot. Why on Earth would we have to do this, when Jesus already died for our sins? I get the sneaking suspicion that this was so that Catholics could use it to spread fear and obedience into the masses, and also of course so that they could take money from people to allow them into heaven. (The very premise of this goes against the fundamentals of their own religion, which makes this almost blasphemic. Imho.)


It's not the religion that isn't liberal enough, it's its followers.



Yep. I should have said "when a religions followers" aren't liberal enough.
#34
Quote by MeltingWaxFace



Exactly. Well said. There are so many "Christians" that say it just so they can sleep at night because they think they're going to Heaven.




Quote by JilaX^
I'd like to think I understand Christianity fairy well. According to the Bible, all you have to do is have faith in Jesus/God and you will go to heaven, as Jesus died for our sins.


Dude! You sure?! Then why did he had to go on teaching ****, and not just instantly die the moment he lived here? If all Christians go to heaven, then why is there a belief in hell then? You sin, you die, chances are your going to hell.

Yet. Catholics have for some strange reason gotten it into their heads that we have to go to confession, and redeem ourselves from our sins that way. Now, this confuses me. A lot. Why on Earth would we have to do this, when Jesus already died for our sins? I get the sneaking suspicion that this was so that Catholics could use it to spread fear and obedience into the masses, and also of course so that they could take money from people to allow them into heaven. (The very premise of this goes against the fundamentals of their own religion, which makes this almost blasphemic. Imho.)


Jesus died because of our sins. He died so that we can go to heaven. That doesn't mean we will all go to heaven. He sacntified death, that's it, and gave us the capability to go to heaven. This is why you need to confess because the human person has the capability to sin, and we need to be sorry for them if we want to go to heaven.
Quote by DrkNTwstd
darkangel, you are a smart man. no flame shield is necessary.


Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore"
#35
Quote by Time Seller
Well, in Malaysia:

If you marry a Muslim, you have to become a Muslim. Your children will be Muslims. Your descendants will be Muslims.

So it's easy to see how it permeates over here, at least.


Bear in mind that they can legally have 3 wives.


I'm a muslim, and I find that oppressive. Why can 2 people with different religion live happily together? Does that apply to christianity too?
R.A.G.E.
#36
Quote by anuar_grg
I'm a muslim, and I find that oppressive. Why can 2 people with different religion live happily together? Does that apply to christianity too?


I'm sorry if you found that offensive. But as far as I know, the religion of a family here depends on the father. If the father's a christian, then everyone in the family will be.
Quote by DrkNTwstd
darkangel, you are a smart man. no flame shield is necessary.


Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore"
#37
Quote by darkangel24
I'm sorry if you found that offensive. But as far as I know, the religion of a family here depends on the father. If the father's a christian, then everyone in the family will be.


Guess I just gotta live with it.
R.A.G.E.
#38
Quote by darkangel24
Yeah you're right. But these Islam extremists misunderstand the now changed meaning of 'Jihad'. If I remember correctly, Islam changed it from physical fighting for the name of Allah to spiritual fighting for the name of Allah. This should be made clear for Muslims. If they want to really follow Allah, they won't literally die for Him.

Jihad means simply 'striving in the way of Allah', that can include fighting if the religion is under threat (obviously this is rare), but it more often includes activities like fasting and prayer. It is clear to Muslims, unfortunately it isn't to Western media.
Quote by Soul Power
Well, Islam is the fastest growing religion. I don't know why poeple don't realize it, but Christianity has of lot similarities to Islam.

Islam followed Christianity, so it is not surprising that they are similar, although it bears more similarity to the OT.
Last edited by Kiwi Ace at Apr 2, 2008,
#39
i cant stand either of them. when will these people's gods come down and take them away?
Quote by darkangel24
I'm sorry if you found that offensive. But as far as I know, the religion of a family here depends on the father. If the father's a christian, then everyone in the family will be.
theres no such thing as a religious newborn. if your father is religious, he will brainwash you into whatever religion he is in. theres nothing special about that.
.
..
...
I have no opinion on this matter.
#40
First lets try to spell it the right way ok??
for muslim we don't call it koran but qur'an

plus i dont think we should compare one religion to another because all u have to do is believe what u think is right!!
Page 1 of 2