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#2
It would make perfect sense if you thought it sounded nice, why dont you try listening to it.
Quote by Robbie n strat
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#3
Quote by zacattack69
would it make sense to play D Dorian over this progression?


Dm-C-Dm-F-G-C-A-Dm


It does seem to want to resolve to D (and C...it's fairly ambiguous), but the progression is not modal. If you want to use Dorian, create a one or two chord vamp.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#4
Quote by Archeo Avis
It does seem to want to resolve to D (and C...it's fairly ambiguous), but the progression is not modal. If you want to use Dorian, create a one or two chord vamp.


What are vamps?
#5
Quote by bigtimber112
What are vamps?
Generally 1 or 2-bar long bits repeated over and over again. So something like playing Dm G Dm G Dm G etc. etc. would be a D Dorian vamp.

I personally think that since it does seem to want to resolve to D, it is acceptable to play a D Dorian scale over it. Just know that since the A major chord in there has a C#, the progression is technically not dorian.
#6
Quote by zacattack69
would it make sense to play D Dorian over this progression?


Dm-C-Dm-F-G-C-A-Dm

That A chord necessitates a C#; you're not playing in Dorian regardless of where the resolution seems to lie. You're better off with a vamp such as Dm7 G7; that's quintessential D Dorian.
#7
Quote by zacattack69
would it make sense to play D Dorian over this progression?


Dm-C-Dm-F-G-C-A-Dm
You can't. If you played a D dorian shape over that progression (sorry, but I have a bad feeling thats what you were implying), youd actually be playing D dorian, than C ionian, than D dorian, than F lydian and so on because of the chords, except on that A major chord where you'll end up playing a sort of A Aeolian major/A Phyrgian major #2 thing, if you dont play that third degree at all.

The chord and the tonal center are what makes the mode. A mode isnt just a group of notes, its a group of intervals that relate to said tonal center.

Quote by Archeo Avis
It does seem to want to resolve to D (and C...it's fairly ambiguous), but the progression is not modal. If you want to use Dorian, create a one or two chord vamp.
Quote by :-D
You're better off with a vamp such as Dm7 G7; that's quintessential D Dorian.
Thats still not modal... Your playing G mixolydian over that G7 chord

I still disagree with the jazz theory that says that tunes can be in a single mode. Songs can resolve to special chords and therefore resolve to a special mode, but its not in a single mode. Most jazzers would aim to play a different mode over different chords, than add accidentals and tritones from any notes and resolve it with a modal/chord tone for originallity and spice. Modes aren't restrictive, modes arent even scale, modes are great tools used for writing great music.

How did MT fail so much whilst I was away?

/response to many threads (not just this one)
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        L.
#8
Your playing G mixolydian over that G7 chord

I reckon that depends on how you play/write the music. In my book if it sounds dorian, it is dorian.

To answer the threadstarter, yes and I completely agree with notoriousnumber.
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Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
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#9
Quote by Ænimus Prime
I reckon that depends on how you play/write the music. In my book if it sounds dorian, it is dorian.

To answer the threadstarter, yes and I completely agree with notoriousnumber.
But dorian+major tonality=mixolydian

Dorian does sound ALOT like mixolydian, but mixolydian has a major third instead of a minor third and, as a result, dorian sounds sadder and mixolydian sounds happier.
#11
I know the difference between dorian and mixo in both formula and sound, you've misunderstood me I think.

I'm not saying that playing notes from D dorian over G7 can sound like G dorian. That's physically impossible.

I'm saying that playing notes from D dorian over G7 in a progression can still sound like, and therefore be, D dorian.
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#12
Quote by demonofthenight
But dorian+major tonality=mixolydian
QUOTE]
Have you never realised that mixolydian and dorian are virtually the same mode, except one has a major third and the other has a minor third? Cool huh, modes only change 1 interval when going around in a circle of fifths/fourths. Locrian to lydians even a root change, the root is sharpened.
I know the difference between dorian and mixo in both formula and sound, you've misunderstood me I think.

I'm not saying that playing notes from D dorian over G7 can sound like G dorian. That's physically impossible.

I'm saying that playing notes from D dorian over G7 in a progression can still sound like, and therefore be, D dorian.
But... mixolydian sounds like mixolydian, right? I know you've been saying some wacky things about soulfull bends and soul beams, but mixolydian still sounds like mixolydian
#13
mixolydian sounds like mixolydian, right?

Sure does. And dorian sounds like dorian.

If you're playing a strong D dorian melody over Dm and the chord changes to G7, the melody can still sound like D dorian.
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#14
Quote by Ænimus Prime
Sure does. And dorian sounds like dorian.

If you're playing a strong D dorian melody over Dm and the chord changes to G7, the melody can still sound like D dorian.
And there, Mr Optimus, we disagree. Changing the chord will change the tonal center and change all the intervals. Say if your "strong" dorian melody was: m3, t, M6, m7, t, m3, keep the same notes but change the tonal center you get: m7, 5, M3, 4, 5, m7. See? And you know as well as I do that the intervals is what makes the song.
#15
no no no, changing the chord will NOT change the tonal centre.

the whole point in chord progressions in key based music is their movement from and around the tonal centre. The V chord sounds stong BECAUSE of its relation to the tonal centre.

Lead guitar played over a progression like this will ALL sound relative to the tonal centre.


Modal feel can be acheieved if the chords are played for a good few bars and the ear changes the tonal centre.
Joe satriani says 'the ear remembers the last 7 notes' i guess thats a bar or 2, but the point is, we need to be conscious of where the ear is at any point within a song..... it does not change with each chord
#16
Quote by branny1982
no no no, changing the chord will NOT change the tonal centre.

the whole point in chord progressions in key based music is their movement from and around the tonal centre. The V chord sounds stong BECAUSE of its relation to the tonal centre.

Lead guitar played over a progression like this will ALL sound relative to the tonal centre.


Modal feel can be acheieved if the chords are played for a good few bars and the ear changes the tonal centre.
Joe satriani says 'the ear remembers the last 7 notes' i guess thats a bar or 2, but the point is, we need to be conscious of where the ear is at any point within a song..... it does not change with each chord
I dont believe that people remember exactly 7 notes, why seven? why not eight? But I do agree that theres a tonal center for that whole song for the chords, I dont agree that a minor third to that tonal center will sound the same thoughout the song. It will sound 1 way over 1 chord and another over a different chord,
#17
Quote by demonofthenight
I dont agree that a minor third to that tonal center will sound the same thoughout the song. It will sound 1 way over 1 chord and another over a different chord,


unfortunately this is where i think you are wrong.


I dont believe that people remember exactly 7 notes, why seven? why not eight?

I just use it as an example of how the ear holds on to the tonal centre, although i think he uses it to explain when and where to play out of key notes.
#19
And there, Mr Optimus, we disagree.
Not completely though. You say it will change the centre of the melody. I say it may change the centre of the melody, or it may not.

And you know as well as I do that the intervals is what makes the song.
There is more than intervals though.

intervals are the basic building blocks that make up chords and modes, chords and modes are the building blocks that make up progressions, progressions make up keys, keys make up songs.

All these layers can move freely as well as drag the others with them. Like a swirling and flowing stream of sound.

we need to be conscious of where the ear is at any point within a song

Exactly
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#22
Quote by Ænimus Prime
If you're playing a strong D dorian melody over Dm and the chord changes to G7, the melody can still sound like D dorian.

Quote by demonofthenight
And there, Mr Optimus, we disagree.

Dm7 G7 is often used as an example of a very common and simple D Dorian vamp.
#23
Demon has learnt the 'Chord makes the mode' method of modes, which is remarkably common. It is a method of mode learning spawned from 'this box shape is this mode'

G7 is built from the D Dorian mode, that is what this system fails to recognise.
#24
Quote by branny1982


G7 is built from the D Dorian mode, that is what this system fails to recognise.


explain
shred is gaudy music
#25
D Dorian

Tonal Centre - D
Notes in scale - D E F G A B C

Notes in G7 - G B D F

The theory is that when the G7 is being played, the 'mode' in use is G Mixolydian.

The reality is that the tonal centre is D, therefore the mode is Dorian throughout. (assuming the tonal centre IS D throughout)

Is that incorrect?
#28
Exactly. It all depends on how the melody and the chords interact and affect each other, and in the end what it sounds like is what it is.

It is a method of mode learning spawned from 'this box shape is this mode'
That is not true at all. It's just the one end of the spectrum, where chords are an irresistable harmonic force, rigidly affecting all melody above it. The other end is where melody and chords are completely seperate, where changing the chord doesn't affect the melody at all.
My name is Andy
Quote by MudMartin
Only looking at music as math and theory, is like only looking at the love of your life as flesh and bone.

Swinging to the rhythm of the New World Order,
Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums
#29
quick question you guys can probably answer for me.

Today in my jazz lab class the teacher told us to raise the 7th of a minor scale to make it a harmonic minor. I did that and then the kid next to me was showing the kid next to him how to do it but was raising the 7th of the dorian mode. I told him that we were supposed to be doing it to the minor scale. The kid tells me that dorian is also minor and I chose to ignore him and told him to believe whatever he wanted.

Please tell me I am right. I know that dorian is minor-esque but that it isn't the same.
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#30
Quote by branny1982
D Dorian

Tonal Centre - D
Notes in scale - D E F G A B C

Notes in G7 - G B D F

The theory is that when the G7 is being played, the 'mode' in use is G Mixolydian.

The reality is that the tonal centre is D, therefore the mode is Dorian throughout. (assuming the tonal centre IS D throughout)

Is that incorrect?


Do you mean in a Dm7 G7 vamp?

If so, yeah, I would think D dorian.

but for G7 on its own, I would think Mixolydian.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Apr 3, 2008,
#32
Quote by elchico04
quick question you guys can probably answer for me.

Today in my jazz lab class the teacher told us to raise the 7th of a minor scale to make it a harmonic minor. I did that and then the kid next to me was showing the kid next to him how to do it but was raising the 7th of the dorian mode. I told him that we were supposed to be doing it to the minor scale. The kid tells me that dorian is also minor and I chose to ignore him and told him to believe whatever he wanted.

Please tell me I am right. I know that dorian is minor-esque but that it isn't the same.


you are correct. raising the 7th of dorian does not give you harmonic minor.

it would give you the same notes as melodic minor though.
shred is gaudy music
#33
Quote by branny1982
^aaahhhhh, sorry.... i was talking within the context that G7 can exist within D Dorian and is not nessecarily mixolydian.


Well, it does exist within it.... im just not sure I undestand why you would view it that way on a static G7 chord. I mean you would still be playing the same notes, but I would rather think of 1 thing..... Mixolydian. Its just quicker.... less thinking.... more playing.

For the 2 chords, where D is the tonal center, it makes more sense to thing of Dorian.
shred is gaudy music
#34
Quote by elchico04
quick question you guys can probably answer for me.

Today in my jazz lab class the teacher told us to raise the 7th of a minor scale to make it a harmonic minor. I did that and then the kid next to me was showing the kid next to him how to do it but was raising the 7th of the dorian mode. I told him that we were supposed to be doing it to the minor scale. The kid tells me that dorian is also minor and I chose to ignore him and told him to believe whatever he wanted.

Please tell me I am right. I know that dorian is minor-esque but that it isn't the same.


What it the Dorian mode or just a box shape that you associated with Dorian. There's a difference.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#35
Quote by Archeo Avis
What it the Dorian mode or just a box shape that you associated with Dorian. There's a difference.


lol "just a box shape".

if you play a box shape.... you just played the scale.
shred is gaudy music
#36
Quote by GuitarMunky
Well, it does exist within it.... im just not sure I undestand why you would view it that way on a static G7 chord. I mean you would still be playing the same notes, but I would rather think of 1 thing..... Mixolydian. Its just quicker.... less thinking.... more playing.

For the 2 chords, where D is the tonal center, it makes more sense to thing of Dorian.

no no, i wouldnt view it that way over a static chord. i must be confusing you...

also, good playing on your profile. everybody should have mp3's up here.
#37
thanks guitar monkey. I had a feeling I was right. The kid was being a prick and not listening to me.
Gibson Explorer
Jackson Soloist SL3
Orange Tiny Terror
Mesa 2x12
#38
Quote by GuitarMunky
lol "just a box shape".

if you play a box shape.... you just played the scale.


Plenty of people think that moving up the fretboard changes the mode.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#39
Quote by branny1982
no no, i wouldnt view it that way over a static chord. i must be confusing you...

also, good playing on your profile. everybody should have mp3's up here.



ok i thought I might be taking it out of context.

and thanks Your music sounded cool as well.

Quote by elchico04
thanks guitar monkey. I had a feeling I was right. The kid was being a prick and not listening to me.


NP glad to help.

Quote by Archeo Avis
Plenty of people think that moving up the fretboard changes the mode.


Yeah thats true..... as far as I can tell that wasnt the issue.
shred is gaudy music
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