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#1
I posted this previously in another thread then I thought it would be a great thread by itself. Anyway read and discuss if you'd like.

I find reality a very curious subject. Nothing is real except the concepts from your own point of view. Those thoughts are usually based upon or only consist of what you have heard. And how easy is it to deny or dispute information when you are told not to believe everything you hear or read. The whole thing is very contradictory. Having that feeling where there is no truth is very unnerving and self destructive. I think there are two things in life everyone must accept: You cannot make everyone in existence believe the same you do, and you can never truly know the right answer.

Just some of my philosophy to ponder and for UG to disagree with.

In fact everything I just said is contradictory.
"A sense of purpose overrides reason."- Terry Goodkind

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace."-Jimi Hendrix


\,,/GETCHA PULL!!!\,,/
- the late and ever-loved "Dimebag" Darrell Lance Abbott
#3
Quote by atlasguitar
I think there are two things in life everyone must accept: You cannot make everyone in existence believe the same you do, and you can never truly know the right answer.


I believe in this guy

EDIT: but.......read Mathew 7:7 new testament
#4
Quote by aaron6890
allegory of the cave, read it.


plato was a genius.


Ah! Plato's Cave, excellent philosophy subject, who will be the first to step out into the light, the unknown....?
#5
Quote by atlasguitar
I posted this previously in another thread then I thought it would be a great thread by itself. Anyway read and discuss if you'd like.

I find reality a very curious subject. Nothing is real except the concepts from your own point of view. Those thoughts are usually based upon or only consist of what you have heard. And how easy is it to deny or dispute information when you are told not to believe everything you hear or read. The whole thing is very contradictory. Having that feeling where there is no truth is very unnerving and self destructive. I think there are two things in life everyone must accept: You cannot make everyone in existence believe the same you do, and you can never truly know the right answer.

Just some of my philosophy to ponder and for UG to disagree with.

In fact everything I just said is contradictory.


Parot out sweeping generalities much?
#6
taking philosophy classes at college?
'To be positive at all times is to ignore all that is important, sacred or valuable. To be negative at all times is to be threatened by ridiculousness and instant discredibility.'
-Kurt Cobain
#7
nope, youre not nearly that important. you are an insignificant speck of dust on a planet orbiting a black hole in a backwater part of the universe. reality does not revolve around you. under no circumstances will anything you ever do in your life really matter. the universe would function perfectly without you. and when you die nothing happens.
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I have no opinion on this matter.
#9
I am drinking a pepsi. Am I wrong?
Quote by vintage x metal
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Yeah, write to my fanclub about it, honey.
#10
Quote by Zugunruhe
nope, youre not nearly that important. you are an insignificant speck of dust on a planet orbiting a black hole in a backwater part of the universe. reality does not revolve around you. under no circumstances will anything you ever do in your life really matter. the universe would function perfectly without you. and when you die nothing happens.

+1
Quote by TunerAddict,mdawg24
+Infinity

Listen to ExtremeMetalFTW, he knows what he is talking about...

Quote by vmanoman
I clicked System Restore and it said "System Restore Is Unable To Protect You".

^^SO KVLT!!
#11
Quote by aaron6890
allegory of the cave, read it.


plato was a genius.


EDIT: link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_cave



Whoa, that just blew my mind. Seriously, I have cum all over my monitor now.


/lamesexjoke
#12
Quote by aaron6890
allegory of the cave, read it.


plato was a genius.


EDIT: link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_cave


Doesn't it just f**king blow your f**king mind? Thank You for showing me that. You might have just changed my life. This Allegory of the Cave gets across exactly what I mean. I find it funny that it comes from Wikipedia which gets pounded all the time for misinformation but this whole thing contradicts it.

Oh My God...
"A sense of purpose overrides reason."- Terry Goodkind

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace."-Jimi Hendrix


\,,/GETCHA PULL!!!\,,/
- the late and ever-loved "Dimebag" Darrell Lance Abbott
#13
Quote by atlasguitar
Doesn't it just f**king blow your f**king mind? Thank You for showing me that. You might have just changed my life. This Allegory of the Cave gets across exactly what I mean. I find it funny that it comes from Wikipedia which gets pounded all the time for misinformation but this whole thing contradicts it.

Oh My God...

no problem man, i was reading up on it the other day to write a song about it. its a great thing to keep in mind when thinking about philosophy and reality.
#14
yeah Allegory of the Cave is a ****ing trip. the first time i read it...mind****.


My mind is going. I can feel it.
#15
Quote by Zugunruhe
nope, youre not nearly that important. you are an insignificant speck of dust on a planet orbiting a black hole in a backwater part of the universe. reality does not revolve around you. under no circumstances will anything you ever do in your life really matter. the universe would function perfectly without you. and when you die nothing happens.


Exactly, what this means is that is your own reality no one else's. The Ideas or concepts that you have written above is your reality, your shadow. (read the link of Allegory of the Cave) And how can you prove what you believe to be true, how? Because a scientist told you? I cannot change your reality and you cannot change mine.

Man I love this.
"A sense of purpose overrides reason."- Terry Goodkind

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace."-Jimi Hendrix


\,,/GETCHA PULL!!!\,,/
- the late and ever-loved "Dimebag" Darrell Lance Abbott
Last edited by atlasguitar at Apr 3, 2008,
#16
..except that Plato was a classical philosopher and believed in absolute truths, and goes entirely against the point you started this thread with that reality is created by us through our own perception and interpretation... You're already about 1700 years ahead of Plato, why bump yourself back?
#17
Quote by dullsilver_mike
..except that Plato was a classical philosopher and believed in absolute truths, and goes entirely against the point you started this thread with that reality is created by us through our own perception and interpretation... You're already about 1700 years ahead of Plato, why bump yourself back?

because, in order to truely understand something, you must know the foundation of it, but it goes with what TS is saying, basically everything you know is a lie, well not a lie, but a false truth. something that is contridictory, but makes perfect sense, its hard to explain. its something that is commonly thought of as true, but infact is fake....or just a different veiw of something much greater. like a peice of the puzzle taken out of context.
#18
david r. hawkins.

reality and subjectivity

good book, good author. psyc, md, phd, yea yeah.
#19
Quote by aaron6890
because, in order to truely understand something, you must know the foundation of it, but it goes with what TS is saying, basically everything you know is a lie, well not a lie, but a false truth. something that is contridictory, but makes perfect sense, its hard to explain. its something that is commonly thought of as true, but infact is fake....or just a different veiw of something much greater. like a peice of the puzzle taken out of context.


According to Plato everything in the physical world is removed from it's "ideal" counterpart by one degree. He figures that if you think long enough you'll realize the ideal form of an object and thus see the real thing instead of the real world manifestation of it which is a shadow. So we see a chair, and it's not really a chair, it's a shadow, the "ideal" chair exists beyond the physical world, and encompasses anything we could ever imagine being a chair.

I'm pretty sure that's what he means by shadows and light. If you read the rest of the Republic, he goes further and suggests that mimetic representations (pieces of art) are removed a further degree from the ideal becuase the are copies of copies.

Under all of this is the assertion that thier is one objective reality and set of truths--the ideal world--it is merely covered up by our physical existence.

So does the TS believe what Plato does? Or does he believe, as I take his original post to mean, that there are no real objective truths at all, and we create meaning only through our perception and interpretation of objects?

I see these as very competing approaches to defining reality, they don't go together real well.

Edit* so what I mean is that by the TS's first post you would only ever "truely understand something" from your own perspective, because there is no inherently "true" way to understand something.
#20
Quote by dullsilver_mike
..except that Plato was a classical philosopher and believed in absolute truths, and goes entirely against the point you started this thread with that reality is created by us through our own perception and interpretation... You're already about 1700 years ahead of Plato, why bump yourself back?


True but like I said before everything I said is contradictory. Basically if we create this perception of our own from perceptions of others( being the puppet holders not humans) then that absolute truth is unknowable but is there. Plato was way ahead of his time.

One point I'd like to make is the perception of time. We make the perception of time to make a slightly shaky sense of absolute truth. Like right now, right here, as I am writing this it is 1:18 AM. Of course to many of you in your own realities it is not 1:18( in other parts of the world). But for me in my reality it presents some sort of measurement or truth, a false truth.

P.S. The reason it took so long for me to write then post is because I proof read my posts.
"A sense of purpose overrides reason."- Terry Goodkind

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace."-Jimi Hendrix


\,,/GETCHA PULL!!!\,,/
- the late and ever-loved "Dimebag" Darrell Lance Abbott
Last edited by atlasguitar at Apr 3, 2008,
#21
Plato's world of the mind isn't something that is created from your mind. Plato wasn't implying the brain in the bucket concept, he was implying that everything in reality is a shadow of some greater reality. That does not have to do with Solipsism, which is the concept I believe most of you are getting at.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism
#22
Quote by Jack Off Jill
I am drinking a pepsi. Am I wrong?


Perhaps. You can't be certain it is a pepsi. It could very well be a lemur, but your mind chooses to interpret it as a pepsi. In fact, everything we believe to exist could actually be lemurs. You can't assume that anything is fact, or that anything is real. Or at least any more real than dreams. Or lemurs.
O.o

Lets have a sexy partay!


Quote by R_U_READY?
brutal cabbage you sire are, in all sense of the word, a LEGEND no abbreviation can portray the hilarity of what u hav bequeathed to us, i love you for this


I am loved!
#23
Quote by atlasguitar
True but like I said before everything I said is contradictory. Basically if we create this perception of our own from perceptions of others( being the puppet holders not humans) then that absolute truth is unknowable but is there. Plato was way ahead of his time.



WHy is there an absolute truth just because we get our perceptions from others?

Also, I don't mean this in an insulting way, but I think you are misreading Plato a bit, to him the truth is knowable, most people just don't know it.
#24
If you want to learn the basic history of philosophy, I suggest you guys pick up the book "Sophie's World." It covers a lot of major philosopher's from Pre-socratic greeks to the modern Satre. It will educate you on the basis of philosophy, and it's a good story.
#25
lol I don't understand why the cave allegory is 'blowing your minds'. lol.

I mean, Plato is like... totally against what your saying. He believed in an absolute and correct reality. The forms are the 'truth' so to speak. They are the exact and unchanging things from which everything we experience is derived. (The form of the blanket or whatever is the epitome of 'blanket' it contains everything and we derive all that we know about real world blankets from it.


EDIT:Also,in my opinion, Plato was insane and power hungry
On vacation from modding = don't pm me with your pish
#26
Quote by atlasguitar
True but like I said before everything I said is contradictory. Basically if we create this perception of our own from perceptions of others( being the puppet holders not humans) then that absolute truth is unknowable but is there. Plato was way ahead of his time.

One point I'd like to make is the perception of time. We make the perception of time to make a slightly shaky sense of absolute truth. Like right now, right here, as I am writing this it is 1:18 AM. Of course to many of you in your own realities it is not 1:18( in other parts of the world). But for me in my reality it presents some sort of measurement or truth.

well to go deeper into the time thing, quantum mechanics (and sting theory) says that everything that has and will exist is already gone, so our reality is like a film reel, and our perception of time is how fast we are playing it, so in other words, time moves at different rates for different people, i could have written this thousands of years ago, but your just reading it now, because your perception of time is slower, or vise-versa. there for, time is not an absolute truth, it varies, and it can be slowed down, or even stop, through speeding up in another (of the 4) demension (left right up down forward back).

but lets go back to the philosophy part,
philosophically, there is such a thing as absolute truth, something that is concrete and cannot be changed, things like accepted concepts, that may mean different things to different people, but all have atleast on unifiying idea. like the thought of football, its a abstract idea, with a tangable form, that being the game. the rules are abstract, the points are abstract, everything is, except the people playing, who share a common "absolute truth" as to what the game is.


EDIT: meh, how dare you show up here and down talk plato, you socratic fanboy you.
Last edited by aaron6890 at Apr 3, 2008,
#27
Quote by loopypoopy
If you want to learn the basic history of philosophy, I suggest you guys pick up the book "Sophie's World." It covers a lot of major philosopher's from Pre-socratic greeks to the modern Satre. It will educate you on the basis of philosophy, and it's a good story.


I'm not going to accept a philosphy reading list from someone named Loopypoopy


...I'll have to check that out.
#29
Quote by atlasguitar
True but like I said before everything I said is contradictory. Basically if we create this perception of our own from perceptions of others( being the puppet holders not humans) then that absolute truth is unknowable but is there. Plato was way ahead of his time.

One point I'd like to make is the perception of time. We make the perception of time to make a slightly shaky sense of absolute truth. Like right now, right here, as I am writing this it is 1:18 AM. Of course to many of you in your own realities it is not 1:18( in other parts of the world). But for me in my reality it presents some sort of measurement or truth, a false truth.

P.S. The reason it took so long for me to write then post is because I proof read my posts.
being in different time zones isnt being in another reality, its being in another location. we are all existing simultaneously here. time is a subjective thing, because it is only made for this planet. there is only the present, and we are all here at the exact same time. if you take time to mean absolute truth, youre (no offense) completely missing the point. time doesnt matter, because the past and the future are both imaginary.
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I have no opinion on this matter.
#30
Quote by dullsilver_mike
WHy is there an absolute truth just because we get our perceptions from others?

Also, I don't mean this in an insulting way, but I think you are misreading Plato a bit, to him the truth is knowable, most people just don't know it.


You know what, I probably am reading Plato's theory wrong. Then explain it to me I want to see your thoughts on it, get some perspective.
"A sense of purpose overrides reason."- Terry Goodkind

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace."-Jimi Hendrix


\,,/GETCHA PULL!!!\,,/
- the late and ever-loved "Dimebag" Darrell Lance Abbott
#31
Quote by Zugunruhe
being in different time zones isnt being in another reality, its being in another location. we are all existing simultaneously here. time is a subjective thing, because it is only made for this planet. there is only the present, and we are all here at the exact same time. if you take time to mean absolute truth, youre (no offense) completely missing the point. time doesnt matter, because the past and the future are both imaginary.



And to think, when you look into deep space, you're staring at a few million years into the past.
#32
Quote by aaron6890

philosophically, there is such a thing as absolute truth, something that is concrete and cannot be changed, things like accepted concepts, that may mean different things to different people, but all have atleast on unifiying idea. like the thought of football, its a abstract idea, with a tangable form, that being the game. the rules are abstract, the points are abstract, everything is, except the people playing, who share a common "absolute truth" as to what the game is.


ok, tell some americans to go play football, then tell some Brits to do it.

/destruction of absolute truth example

I don't think a few people sharing a concept counts as an absolute truth either. We share social constructions all the time. An absolute truth would be something that is inherent in nature, not created.
#33
Quote by Zugunruhe
nope, youre not nearly that important. you are an insignificant speck of dust on a planet orbiting a black hole in a backwater part of the universe. reality does not revolve around you. under no circumstances will anything you ever do in your life really matter. the universe would function perfectly without you. and when you die nothing happens.


Untrue, if a man was to destroy the earth and the moon, that would affect the universe...
"And you will never hear surf music again..."
#34
Quote by loopypoopy
And to think, when you look into deep space, you're staring at a few million years into the past.
thats only distance. your not staring across time. everything that exists exists simultaneously, whether you can see it or not.
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I have no opinion on this matter.
#35
Quote by Zugunruhe
thats only distance. your not staring across time. everything that exists exists simultaneously, whether you can see it or not.


Should I rephrase? You're perceiving light that existed a few million years ago. There, we both win.
#36
Quote by dullsilver_mike
ok, tell some americans to go play football, then tell some Brits to do it.

/destruction of absolute truth example

I don't think a few people sharing a concept counts as an absolute truth either. We share social constructions all the time. An absolute truth would be something that is inherent in nature, not created.

Damn i should have picked a different sport! foiled once again!


but more seriously. its not just a few people sharing a concept, think of something like math, everyone has to use the same rules. its a universally accepted truth that is absolute, there is not questioning that 2+2=4. its something everyone knows, and everyone says is true, and i know, you could create a holes in it, but what it comes down to is that its something everyone accepts that is a concept thats abstract.

and on that note i take my leave.
#37
Quote by aaron6890
Damn i should have picked a different sport! foiled once again!


but more seriously. its not just a few people sharing a concept, think of something like math, everyone has to use the same rules. its a universally accepted truth that is absolute, there is not questioning that 2+2=4. its something everyone knows, and everyone says is true, and i know, you could create a holes in it, but what it comes down to is that its something everyone accepts that is a concept thats abstract.

and on that note i take my leave.



If I felt like changing the names i could make 5 + 2 = 4
On vacation from modding = don't pm me with your pish
#38
Quote by Zugunruhe
being in different time zones isnt being in another reality, its being in another location. we are all existing simultaneously here. time is a subjective thing, because it is only made for this planet. there is only the present, and we are all here at the exact same time. if you take time to mean absolute truth, youre (no offense) completely missing the point. time doesnt matter, because the past and the future are both imaginary.


When I say reality I should say perspective. I am sorry I mislead you. Also I think you misunderstood what I meant, time is irrelevant ( I agree with you there) that is what my whole point was, time is a false truth and an unreliable false truth at that.

Thank you for correcting me, I do not claim to know everything and I still don't.
"A sense of purpose overrides reason."- Terry Goodkind

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace."-Jimi Hendrix


\,,/GETCHA PULL!!!\,,/
- the late and ever-loved "Dimebag" Darrell Lance Abbott
#39
Quote by meh!
If I felt like changing the names i could make 5 + 2 = 4
then you would be wrong. just because you make up your own "reality" doesnt mean that it is right. 1+1=2 and 1+1=10. both statements are the same, and both are correct. changing names does not change reality.
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I have no opinion on this matter.
#40
Quote by Zugunruhe
then you would be wrong. just because you make up your own "reality" doesnt mean that it is right. 1+1=2 and 1+1=10. both statements are the same, and both are correct. changing names does not change reality.


Theres no such thing as a stable reality though. Who is to say 1 is what you believe 1 to be? Just because its common knowledge doesn't mean its "right".
O.o

Lets have a sexy partay!


Quote by R_U_READY?
brutal cabbage you sire are, in all sense of the word, a LEGEND no abbreviation can portray the hilarity of what u hav bequeathed to us, i love you for this


I am loved!
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