#1
ok, correct me if I'm wrong here, but here's what I'm trying to figure out. Some songs will have a note which is out of key, and I think these are what are called chromatic tones. A lot of the time they will be a passing note, and they make sense when right afterwards they resolve to a note in key, I often see this at the end of a certain passage where there is going to be a significant change to the feeling of the song. Now my confusion comes in places where they don't seem to be a passing tone. Take for example shine on you crazy diamond by Pink Floyd. At the beginning is a solo in Bb major, but I'm guessing it's actually Gminor because it mostly uses the pentatonic scale, this is all fine and dandy, until he reaches the verse/bridge or whatever. In this key, you've got 2 accidentals, Bb, Eb. He plays a slow part that goes Bb-F-G-E. Now that E, is massively confusing, because only for this one little part do I notice the use of the E. And if you play the song in a different manner than Gilmour does and play it with an Eb instead of an E it sounds pretty bad.

I'm just trying to wrap my mind around what's going on here, why I want to know is that I would really like to be able to write songs that are like this, where they go out of key and are really inventive and creative without sticking to only the key. Like, how someone actually writes this kind of music I want to know. When I watch someone who can play a million notes in key, it's not half as good as when you get 4 really slow notes that give the song a voice, that make it memorable, sorry for wall of text, but thanks for any advice.
#2
sometimes songs can be a lot more complicate and change scale half way through parts of a song remember music has no real rules so it just might be over a chord that temporarily calls for a different scale i dont know the song so i dont know but im guessing its that
#3
or it could be an altered scale with ectra notes and ofcourse its gonna sound wrojng if you play the wrong note:P
#4
Quote by farcry
ok, correct me if I'm wrong here, but here's what I'm trying to figure out. Some songs will have a note which is out of key, and I think these are what are called chromatic tones. A lot of the time they will be a passing note, and they make sense when right afterwards they resolve to a note in key, I often see this at the end of a certain passage where there is going to be a significant change to the feeling of the song. Now my confusion comes in places where they don't seem to be a passing tone. Take for example shine on you crazy diamond by Pink Floyd. At the beginning is a solo in Bb major, but I'm guessing it's actually Gminor because it mostly uses the pentatonic scale, this is all fine and dandy, until he reaches the verse/bridge or whatever. In this key, you've got 2 accidentals, Bb, Eb. He plays a slow part that goes Bb-F-G-E. Now that E, is massively confusing, because only for this one little part do I notice the use of the E. And if you play the song in a different manner than Gilmour does and play it with an Eb instead of an E it sounds pretty bad.

I'm just trying to wrap my mind around what's going on here, why I want to know is that I would really like to be able to write songs that are like this, where they go out of key and are really inventive and creative without sticking to only the key. Like, how someone actually writes this kind of music I want to know. When I watch someone who can play a million notes in key, it's not half as good as when you get 4 really slow notes that give the song a voice, that make it memorable, sorry for wall of text, but thanks for any advice.


he is getting that E.... from G dorian. It sounds to be all from G minor pentatonic, G minor blues and G dorian from what I can hear.

how does he write something like that? honestly I think he knows some patterns that work, and uses his ear.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Apr 7, 2008,
#5
that's funny you mention shine on, I heard gilmour stumbled upon that Bb-F-G-E totally by accident

as far as creativity, it would help to learn your scales and modes to get a general idea, but in the end music is just a form of self-expression, if you have a decent knowledge of theory it should be a bit easier to figure out notes that fit certain moods in certain keys and what not
Between the velvet lies, there's a truth as hard as steel.
The vision never dies, life's a neverending wheel.
#6
^^thanks edbert

Quote by GuitarMunky
he is getting that E.... from G dorian. basically G minor pentatonic, and G dorian from what I can hear.

how does he write something like that? honestly I think he knows some patterns that work, and uses his ear.


ok, so does he go I've got this solo in G minor pentatonic and I know that I want to slow down and I know what feeling I want so I'll change over to G dorian for the verse, or has he played so much that he knows at that point in the song changing to that sound will be better. Basically, do you apply the theory to the music, or is the theory a background of knowledge that subliminally tells your mind what will sound best for a song.

edit: ultimately I'd like to be able to understand some classical music, mostly paganini, his music blows me away, most of the music I enjoy is the kind of music that accentuates those notes, the kind of songs where each note just sings out to you and I really really want to be able to write that kind of music if nothing but for my own enjoyment.
Last edited by farcry at Apr 7, 2008,
#7
Quote by farcry
^^thanks edbert


ok, so does he go I've got this solo in G minor pentatonic and I know that I want to give slow down and I know what feeling I want so I'll change over to G dorian for the verse, or has he played so much that he knows at that point in the song changing to that sound will be better. Basically, do you apply the theory to the music, or is the theory a background of knowledge that subliminally tells your mind what will sound best for a song.


I dont think Gilmour put any of that kind of thought into it. As Edbert said, he came across it on "accident". I think alot of players are intuitive in that way.

You can apply theory however you want. There is no right answer. Different people have different approaches, I wouldnt say one is more valid then the other.

if you want my personal opinion, I prefer the more intuitive approach, where theory is part of your "background of knowledge". I wouldn't say it works subliminally, and I wouldn't say it tells you what will sound best. it does tell you what things are called, and gives insight into why certain things work, but ultimately as an artist, you choose the notes that best convey what your trying to express.
shred is gaudy music
#8
by the way, how do you know he used G dorian as opposed to modulating to Dminor, is there any distinctive way to tell modal music apart from key based music?
#9
Quote by farcry
by the way, how do you know he used G dorian as opposed to modulating to Dminor, is there any distinctive way to tell modal music apart from key based music?


well the background is a Gm- Bb - C. Tonal center is G...... there is no Dm.

the way you can tell, is what chord is the main chord?.... (or the tonal center). its very obviously G. then if you look at the other chords, youll notice they dont fit in G minor, otherwise you would have a C minor chord. They fit in F major.... but G is the tonal center. So what you have there is a fairly typical dorian progression.
shred is gaudy music
#10
found this little tidbit:

Part I (Wright, Waters, Gilmour; from :00 – 3:55) begins with the fading-in of a dense synthesizer pad created with EMS VCS 3, an ARP Solina, a Hammond organ and the sound of wet fingers running around the rims of wine glasses filled with various amounts of water (recycled from an earlier project known as Household Objects). This is followed by plaintive Minimoog passages and a lengthy guitar solo played by David Gilmour on a Fender Stratocaster (neck pickup) using a heavily compressed sound and reverb. The harmony changes from G minor to D minor at 2:29, then modulates to C minor, then back to G minor. This is repeated again, and the part ends with the synth pad fading into the background.

that kind of throws a wrench in the mental cog right there
#11
Quote by farcry
found this little tidbit:

Part I (Wright, Waters, Gilmour; from :00 – 3:55) begins with the fading-in of a dense synthesizer pad created with EMS VCS 3, an ARP Solina, a Hammond organ and the sound of wet fingers running around the rims of wine glasses filled with various amounts of water (recycled from an earlier project known as Household Objects). This is followed by plaintive Minimoog passages and a lengthy guitar solo played by David Gilmour on a Fender Stratocaster (neck pickup) using a heavily compressed sound and reverb. The harmony changes from G minor to D minor at 2:29, then modulates to C minor, then back to G minor. This is repeated again, and the part ends with the synth pad fading into the background.

that kind of throws a wrench in the mental cog right there



the solo starts at 2:32..... what I said is true for that section. BTW I dont hear any C minor modulation in there. honestly I dont think they put as much thought theoretically into it, as that person did while analyzing it.

its very blues based. that part where they go to the Eb... then D. Typical blues change.
They used their ears, and drew from what they knew. Blues was a big part of that.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Apr 7, 2008,
#12
Aye sir, ye be right, my mistake. It's almost making sense now. You shall see more of me in the future, with an account of my increased confusion. After reading so much theory, I'm beginning to see some method to the madness, which is great.

(Gilmour, Waters, Wright; from 3:56 – 6:28) begins with a four-note theme (B-flat, F, G (a minor third below the B-flat), E) repeated throughout much of the entire section. This theme leads the harmony to C major (in comparison to the use of C minor in part I), and this is because the last note is E (and not E-flat). This part includes a second solo by Gilmour. Nick Mason starts his drumming after the fourth runthrough of the four note theme, which is the point where riffs get into a fixed tempo. This theme is sometimes referred to as Syd's Theme.