#1
Alright so i recently learned economy picking and am starting to get a little better at it. I was wondering if since I can play faster with economy picking than alternate picking if there is really a point in using alternate picking anymore?
Thanks in advance
Quote by alkalineweeman
If by "clean" you mean "get a finger right up in there and do a good bit of spelunking" then i guess "at any given opportunity" is my answer.


mah hardcore band
http://monstersvsaliens.bandcamp.com/
#2
well, you can't really economy pick if what your playing is on one string.
90% of teens say they would cry if they saw the Jonas Brothers about to fall off a skyscraper, if you're one of the 10% who would shout, "JUMP MUTHA*******", put this in your signature

My Last .fm page: http://www.last.fm/user/mcgelie
#3
I'm a born economy player. I absolutely love the fluid sound. Alternate picking tends to be a bit more defined, however. Screw it though, I love economy.
#4
alternate picking cannot be substituted with economy picking everywhere, so i would imagine alternate picking has its uses.
#5
Well i know that im not that much of a n()()b

But, I'm saying is it proper technique while going from string to string to economy pick?

edit: that was to the first reply

thanks for the advice guys

more input is welcome
Quote by alkalineweeman
If by "clean" you mean "get a finger right up in there and do a good bit of spelunking" then i guess "at any given opportunity" is my answer.


mah hardcore band
http://monstersvsaliens.bandcamp.com/
#6
Quote by Vandals572
Well i know that im not that much of a n()()b

But, I'm saying is it proper technique while going from string to string to economy pick?

edit: that was to the first reply

thanks for the advice guys

more input is welcome


Alternate versus economy picking is a largely academic dabate as it is entirely subjective, I personally can't get economy picking to sound rhythmically consistent without a metronome to help outside of a sweep picking idea but I know a lot of people find it more natural than alternate.

It is worth saying though as you already know; you can't economy pick until you can alternate pick at least reasonably well as alternate picking will still be your only option in some situations.
R.I.P. My Signature. Lost to us in the great Signature Massacre of 2014.

Quote by Master Foo
“A man who mistakes secrets for knowledge is like a man who, seeking light, hugs a candle so closely that he smothers it and burns his hand.”


Album.
Legion.
#7
You can go with both. Whatever you find most comfortable and easy to play properly is your best bet. Economy picking tends to be very fluid sounding while pure alternate picking tends to be a little more choppy, making every note separated. All depends on the situation I guess. One should be able to do both. Both styles can be played EXTREMELY fast with practice.
#8
I economy pick when going from string to string, because that's what I find natural.
Ibanez s540 with gold Schaller bridge and OMGGOLD hardware

Ibanez RGR320 with Lo-Edge Pro bridge and scalloped fretboard

Lee Jackson XLSC - 500

Roland Microcube

Dunlop Jazz III black
#9
Quote by Vandals572
I was wondering if since I can play faster with economy picking than alternate picking if there is really a point in using alternate picking anymore?


You are looking a playing music only from a speed-obsessed perspective. Try looking
at it another way and I think the answer will be a lot clearer.
#11
I think it totally depends on the player. I never actually learnt to properly alternate pick, I just 'naturally', if you like, started economy picking myself. I just found it far more 'logical' and easier. Some of my friends, on the other hand, cannot economy pick to save their lives but kick ass with alternate picking, so I think you should just do what's easiest for you.
#12
I only economy pick when going fast. Slower, more melodic stuff is all alternate. That being said, I can control my dynamics with the same proficiency in both styles.
#13
Alternate picking sounds better to me. Also usually when i alternate pick I always wind up using a downpick on the down beats which is helpful for keeping in time, like my hand is kind of a built in metronome, although not a very good one at this point.
Quote by Prophet of Page
If Hendrix, Clapton and Page were to jam, the most impressive guitarist playing would be Paul Gilbert.


Member of the "Marty Friedman > You" Club. PM apocalypse13 or altronataku to join

member of the Mitch Hedberg pwns club pm Knives490 to join
#14
Quote by Zaphod_Beeblebr
Alternate versus economy picking is a largely academic dabate as it is entirely subjective, I personally can't get economy picking to sound rhythmically consistent without a metronome to help outside of a sweep picking idea but I know a lot of people find it more natural than alternate.

It is worth saying though as you already know; you can't economy pick until you can alternate pick at least reasonably well as alternate picking will still be your only option in some situations.


I disagree, I don't think you have to be able to alternate pick at all to learn to economy pick (of course I think it's kinda silly to talk about the two as separate and mutually exclusive techniques). I started economy picking right away, I never did strict alternate picking. And I can't think of any situation where alternate picking is your only choice, if nothing else economy picking would be the one applicable to more situations.

I never understood why people say alternate picking is your only option in some situations, or that you can be more dynamic with it, or that it is less rhythmic. It doesn't even make sense to me, how can you be less dynamic or less versatile? You have the same or MORE time to make your next movement, if you need it to be consistently on beat, why not just pause a bit when you break the alternate pattern?

Here's my opinion, go with what is natural, ignore all the hype around either one.

It's stupid for anyone to say that one is so much better than the other, the only difference between the two is if you do an upstroke or downstroke when you change strings. The only result of that is that economy picking is theoretically faster, but is not always so in practice. That's it, plain and simple, people make a HUGE deal about this for NO good reason.
Livin' Easy, Livin' Free
Last edited by AngusX at Apr 22, 2008,
#15
Quote by AngusX
if nothing else economy picking would be the one applicable to more situations.


I don't see how. You can alternate pick on the same string or when going from
one string to another. Economy picking only applies in the latter. Maybe you can
explain?

The way I see it, there's no choice here. They're two different things. They have
different dynamics. I will use either one depending. However, even when I'm
using economy picking I'm ALSO using alternate to some degree. I would definitely
say alternate picking is a much more basic skill. What feels most "natural" are
either things you leave to chance, or specifically spend some time to work on.
#17
This argument has been done to death. Do whatever you want, but in no way is there any real advantage between the 2. Well technically Economy is faster, but you can play faster than you'll ever need to go with both techniques.
#18
Quote by AngusX
I disagree, I don't think you have to be able to alternate pick at all to learn to economy pick (of course I think it's kinda silly to talk about the two as separate and mutually exclusive techniques). I started economy picking right away, I never did strict alternate picking. And I can't think of any situation where alternate picking is your only choice, if nothing else economy picking would be the one applicable to more situations.


Two note per string runs. If you're going up the strings the only picking pattern you will end up using is down, up, down, up, down, up. Same applies to four note per string ideas.

Unless you can alternate pick you will never be able to ecnonmy pick well because, as has already been stated, the only option you have on one string is alternate picking and economy picking only applies in situations where you are playing odd-number per string ideas, therefore economy picking is only useful 50% of the time; the other 50% of the time is always going to be alternate picking.
R.I.P. My Signature. Lost to us in the great Signature Massacre of 2014.

Quote by Master Foo
“A man who mistakes secrets for knowledge is like a man who, seeking light, hugs a candle so closely that he smothers it and burns his hand.”


Album.
Legion.
#19
Quote by Zaphod_Beeblebr
Two note per string runs. If you're going up the strings the only picking pattern you will end up using is down, up, down, up, down, up. Same applies to four note per string ideas.

Unless you can alternate pick you will never be able to ecnonmy pick well because, as has already been stated, the only option you have on one string is alternate picking and economy picking only applies in situations where you are playing odd-number per string ideas, therefore economy picking is only useful 50% of the time; the other 50% of the time is always going to be alternate picking.


That's why I'm saying its silly to act like the two are really different. A person could say they were economy picking those lines, when, in reality, the pattern is the same as alternate picking. To me the two techniques are effectively the same, anyone that can do one can usually do the other just about the same. I just get tired of people saying that one is better than the other, they each have their place, I personally prefer economy picking, other people prefer strict alternate picking; I don't think many non-guitarists are even capable of discerning the difference.
Livin' Easy, Livin' Free
#20
Quote by AngusX
That's why I'm saying its silly to act like the two are really different. A person could say they were economy picking those lines, when, in reality, the pattern is the same as alternate picking. To me the two techniques are effectively the same, anyone that can do one can usually do the other just about the same. I just get tired of people saying that one is better than the other, they each have their place, I personally prefer economy picking, other people prefer strict alternate picking; I don't think many non-guitarists are even capable of discerning the difference.


I know exactly what you mean and agree completely. No non-guitarist will be able to tell the difference because it is only a difference in feel not tone.
R.I.P. My Signature. Lost to us in the great Signature Massacre of 2014.

Quote by Master Foo
“A man who mistakes secrets for knowledge is like a man who, seeking light, hugs a candle so closely that he smothers it and burns his hand.”


Album.
Legion.
#21
Quote by AngusX
I disagree, I don't think you have to be able to alternate pick at all to learn to economy pick (of course I think it's kinda silly to talk about the two as separate and mutually exclusive techniques). I started economy picking right away, I never did strict alternate picking. And I can't think of any situation where alternate picking is your only choice, if nothing else economy picking would be the one applicable to more situations.

I never understood why people say alternate picking is your only option in some situations, or that you can be more dynamic with it, or that it is less rhythmic. It doesn't even make sense to me, how can you be less dynamic or less versatile? You have the same or MORE time to make your next movement, if you need it to be consistently on beat, why not just pause a bit when you break the alternate pattern?

Here's my opinion, go with what is natural, ignore all the hype around either one.

It's stupid for anyone to say that one is so much better than the other, the only difference between the two is if you do an upstroke or downstroke when you change strings. The only result of that is that economy picking is theoretically faster, but is not always so in practice. That's it, plain and simple, people make a HUGE deal about this for NO good reason.



I am like you, grew up economy picking unknowningly, someone pointed it out to me after about 8 years of playing. It just does not make sense to me why one would want to push the pick past the string and then come back trough and hit the string on the upstroke, they made 2 motions to play one note.
Quote by ILuvPillows?
Masturbate it off.
#23
Quote by Vandals572
Alright so i recently learned economy picking and am starting to get a little better at it. I was wondering if since I can play faster with economy picking than alternate picking if there is really a point in using alternate picking anymore?
Thanks in advance


the key is to mix all the different techniques together (not all in one but i mean to use them when they are the most efficient)


You guys need to understand the word economical also lol. Though it seems commonly people believe economy picking is doing the DownUpDownDown kind of pattern, it isnt simply that.

All economy picking is, is playing in the most economical fashion. Why pick each note, when you can sweep them? Unless you want a certain sound, you wont pick each note of a sweep ever because its really hard to do it as fast as you can sweep.

Why strictly alternate pick when it is much less stressful and easier to play at high speeds when you play economically.

just my 2c
Jackson KV2 USA Snow White/Black Bevels
Last edited by nvranka at Apr 25, 2008,
#24
Economy Picking absolutely pwns! Like you TS, I love the sound. However, it is very specialized. Unless you are playing an odd amount of notes per string, changing strings and going in one direction, you can't really use it.

It boggles my mind how someone like Paul Gilbert can use alternate picking at speeds I can't even economy pick. why is he so much better than me?!?!!
#25
Quote by beadhangingOne
It boggles my mind how someone like Paul Gilbert can use alternate picking at speeds I can't even economy pick. why is he so much better than me?!?!!


Huge amounts of practice with a metronome.
R.I.P. My Signature. Lost to us in the great Signature Massacre of 2014.

Quote by Master Foo
“A man who mistakes secrets for knowledge is like a man who, seeking light, hugs a candle so closely that he smothers it and burns his hand.”


Album.
Legion.
#26
I've probably said it in this thread already, but alternate picking is the most important speed technique.


To answer the original question, you'll only be using economy picking when you switch strings. In all other scenarios, you'll be alternate picking.

Once you're good at economy picking, it's fine to use it in place of alt when switching strings. I like having the constant alternation between downstrokes and upstrokes (NO!) but that's just my personal preference. However, being a bad alternate picker will be crippling for a shred player.
Last edited by bangoodcharlote at Apr 27, 2008,
#27
Quote by nvranka


Why strictly alternate pick when it is much less stressful and easier to play at high speeds when you play economically.



When you frame the issue that anything that can be done faster one way is less
musically good than doing it another way, you're bound to reach some conclusions
that I'd say are pretty limiting from a musical standpoint.

The basic fact is a good alternate picker can very fast without undo "stress". Pretty
much at a speed that it doesn't make much difference.

It might be more helpful to look at the differences as a phrasing issue. One way
promotes a smooth, sax-like phrase, whereas the other is a more angular rhythmic
phrase. To the extent you do one or the other would be based on what you wanted
to say rather than how fast you could play.
#28
Quote by bangoodcharlote
However, being a bad alternate picker will be crippling for a shred player.


True, but some get away with it. Take Marty Friedman for example. I don't really know of any amazing alternate picking runs by him, but still, an amazing guitarist.
#29
Quote by beadhangingOne
True, but some get away with it. Take Marty Friedman for example. I don't really know of any amazing alternate picking runs by him, but still, an amazing guitarist.


I think she meant when not changing strings.

I'm not great at alternate picking across different strings. I just economy them, seems much more natural for me. But I'm pretty fast on one string with the alternates or whatever. Those "all other scenarios".
#30
Quote by beadhangingOne
True, but some get away with it. Take Marty Friedman for example. I don't really know of any amazing alternate picking runs by him, but still, an amazing guitarist.


Marty was in a thrash metal band, he can alternate pick better than a whole lot of people it's just that his soloing style doesn't use it much, if at all.
R.I.P. My Signature. Lost to us in the great Signature Massacre of 2014.

Quote by Master Foo
“A man who mistakes secrets for knowledge is like a man who, seeking light, hugs a candle so closely that he smothers it and burns his hand.”


Album.
Legion.
#31
Quote by beadhangingOne
I don't really know of any amazing alternate picking runs by him
The fast stuff in "Tornado of Souls."

We're talking about actual music here, so a fast lick may contain some legato, alternate picking, economy picking, and sweeping, just because that's how the musician elects to play it.
#32
Quote by Zaphod_Beeblebr
Marty was in a thrash metal band, he can alternate pick better than a whole lot of people it's just that his soloing style doesn't use it much, if at all.


Hm, that's true. But I can't really find a crazy alternate picking section by him either way.


Quote by bangoodcharlote
The fast stuff in "Tornado of Souls."


All of that is combined with legato (if you're referring to the arpeggios). The part after is slides, legato and picking, and the very end of the solo is a lot of hammer-ons and sliding and picking.

Quote by bangoodcharlote

We're talking about actual music here, so a fast lick may contain some legato, alternate picking, economy picking, and sweeping, just because that's how the musician elects to play it.


Indeed.
#33
I take back what I said earlier. It may have been the first thing I did, but I tried alternative picking two weeks ago, and it just feels great. That's what I'm gonna do now :p

It gives me much more control, and I think it has a better sound.
Ibanez s540 with gold Schaller bridge and OMGGOLD hardware

Ibanez RGR320 with Lo-Edge Pro bridge and scalloped fretboard

Lee Jackson XLSC - 500

Roland Microcube

Dunlop Jazz III black