#1
anyone ever play on one? thoughts?

im interested because major 3rds sound so out of tune on guitar. how does the tuning sound overall?

also, i mix in midi with guitars mixing, is it hard to retune midi tracks to 19-tet? (i use logic 7 if it matters)
#2
I made a thread about perfect intonation not too long ago, and I was told that guitarists just compromised, and that nobody thought perfect intonation was possible on guitar. Why didn't they just link me to this? I'm fascinated and want to learn more. And yes, I agree that 3rds sound out of tune on guitar, and it's started to bug me the more i notice it.

so yeah, anyone got anymore information on this 19-tet? I just looked at the wiki for it and it didn't explain too much really.
#3
to me the difference is incredibly minimal on a normal guitar, i can't really tell that they are "out of tune" i can't remember but vai or satch recently made a guitar that has funky looking frets on it that provide perfect intonation.

is this maybe what you're referring to in this 19 tet guitar?
#4
In 19TET, there are nineteen tones, which are equally spaced. The smallest sized interval in it will have a ratio of [2^(1/19)]:1. The frequency of any pitch can be determined using the formula:

New Pitch = {2^[(number of semitones)/19]}(Frequency of original pitch)

This will open up many new exciting intervals! However there will be a (slight) difference in cents between the intervals we have with 12TET, and the closest ones in 19TET. It opens up some cool possibilities, but as music is pretty much standardized to use 12TET, I wouldn't recommend it.

If you think that major thirds sound "out of tune", than try using Pythagorean tuning, which is based on the harmonic series, and simple ratios (2:1 = octave, 3:2 = fifth, 4:3 = fourth, 5:4 = major third, to name a few). These intervals should sound much more consonant, as the sound waves will fit together much more nicely then they would using the current 12TET where the major third is a ratio of [2^(1/3)]:1 which works out to 1.25992104:1 rather than the much more even 1.25:1 of Pythagorean tuning.

Quote by z4twenny
to me the difference is incredibly minimal on a normal guitar, i can't really tell that they are "out of tune" i can't remember but vai or satch recently made a guitar that has funky looking frets on it that provide perfect intonation.

is this maybe what you're referring to in this 19 tet guitar?


I know that "Deep Down Into the Pain" featured a 16TET guitar, but Vai used it for the dissonant chords created by this tuning system.

This is the guitar he used. As you can see it has the frets aligned to fit 16 into one octave, and each fret is still an exponentially steady distance from the next fret.
Last edited by isaac_bandits at Apr 8, 2008,
#6
If you think that major thirds sound "out of tune", than try using Pythagorean tuning, which is based on the harmonic series


which would also be a few cents off from 12TET and would require a custom guitar neck as well.
#7
Quote by capiCrimm
which would also be a few cents off from 12TET and would require a custom guitar neck as well.


But its a far more practical alternative to 12TET. It allows for very consonant intervals, while still using the same theory as 12TET.
#8
Quote by isaac_bandits
In 19TET, there are nineteen tones, which are equally spaced. The smallest sized interval in it will have a ratio of [2^(1/19)]:1. The frequency of any pitch can be determined using the formula:

New Pitch = {2^[(number of semitones)/19]}(Frequency of original pitch)

This will open up many new exciting intervals! However there will be a (slight) difference in cents between the intervals we have with 12TET, and the closest ones in 19TET. It opens up some cool possibilities, but as music is pretty much standardized to use 12TET, I wouldn't recommend it.

If you think that major thirds sound "out of tune", than try using Pythagorean tuning, which is based on the harmonic series, and simple ratios (2:1 = octave, 3:2 = fifth, 4:3 = fourth, 5:4 = major third, to name a few). These intervals should sound much more consonant, as the sound waves will fit together much more nicely then they would using the current 12TET where the major third is a ratio of [2^(1/3)]:1 which works out to 1.25992104:1 rather than the much more even 1.25:1 of Pythagorean tuning.


I know that "Deep Down Into the Pain" featured a 16TET guitar, but Vai used it for the dissonant chords created by this tuning system.

This is the guitar he used. As you can see it has the frets aligned to fit 16 into one octave, and each fret is still an exponentially steady distance from the next fret.


Hey, wait a minute. Pythagorean tuning is used melodically. Playing a harmony in that tuning just sounds horrible. You have to use "just tuning" for chords/double stops and Pythagorean tuning for melodies. It's how violins and other non-fixed pitch instruments play super super in tune...i think.
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#9
Quote by sharpiemarker
Hey, wait a minute. Pythagorean tuning is used melodically. Playing a harmony in that tuning just sounds horrible. You have to use "just tuning" for chords/double stops and Pythagorean tuning for melodies. It's how violins and other non-fixed pitch instruments play super super in tune...i think.


I think not. Pythagorean tuning has a simple ratio for each interval. This creates chords with high consonances, and nice graphs.

Just intonation uses the frequency ratio of 3:2 for perfect fifths, and 2:1 for octaves. Then for any interval, one can follow the circle of fifths, exponentiating 3:2 the required amounts of times, to figure out the ratio of any interval. Then, bring it down to the correct octave, and you will find the ratio.

I would think Pythagorean tuning would sound the most consonant, however each note would need different pitches, as C# over an A would need to be a different pitch than if played over a A#. Each note would be relative to the tonic of the current harmony, and it would be nearly impossible to play.
#10
umm... if i where to have this 19 tet guitar would my major scale be 11 tones now instaed of a diatonic 7????

or would Cmajor always be the same but wiht more notes inbetween you can play?
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Last edited by lbc_sublime at Apr 8, 2008,
#11
19-tet uses sharps and flats together, the scale looks something like: A A# Bb B Cb C C# Db... so on. you would still use 7 tones except, which sharps and flats depend on what key you are in. personally what i hear is, major interval should lie somewhere between flattened 3rd and regular 3rd.

heres the problem i face with pythagorean tuning:

The problem with Pythagorean tuning is that it works only within one key. In other words, if you tune all the notes on a piano so that the notes are perfectly in tune in the key of C, they will be out of tune when playing in other keys.


ive actually considered doing this.. having a guitar tuned to Cmin and another to Gmin (the 2 i use most), but im focusing on one guitar at a time.