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#1
so i googled 'angled humbucker' and i found this patent thing that says:

The present invention relates to an angled humbucking pick-up for an electrical musical instrument of the stringed type and, more particularly, to a humbucking pick-up for an electrical musical instrument of the stringed type having enhanced tonal qualities.


heres a link to the patent:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4463648.html

so i was wondering, how exactly would this enhance tone ?
how would it sound different ?
the language is abit complex for something that may be complex anyways i don't get it so i was wondering if someone could elaborate ?

thankyou.
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#2
Er. From what I understand about angled pickups, it would make the polepieces at the bass strings closer to the node, and the treble strings further, balancing out the tone.
#3
I have always wondered why the fender SC is angled

I'm guessing it has something to do with the sound of the lower strings nearer the bridge and that if you get to close to sounds too twangy

that said, the intonation of the bridge usualy brings the bass side back wards, which should cancel out the need to angle the pup forwards. So I have no idea




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#4


I just pulled that from the patent PDF. I was having a hard time figuring out what they meant

Hmm, the pickups run parallel to the intonation line through the bridge, so it must have something to do with alignment to the 'node' (if I'm reading into this correctly).
Last edited by -MintSauce- at Apr 10, 2008,
#5
Another advantage is a humbucking pick-up wherein the harmonics are different for each string. Still another advantage is a pick-up having better separation between the sounds from the individual strings.



it looks like you will have more clarity and tonal variation over the 6 strings.
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#6
The thing i find very odd about this is the fact that this patent would have come from Leo's G&L years and after running through all of the models that G&L offers not one of them has angled humbuckers.
More than likely it has to do with the fact that it moves the pole pieces so i believe that the guy with the number name is correct.
#7
But in reality there is no reason to put the pole peices closer to the node, its just a gimmick, the whole point of it is cancelled out as soon as you fret a string and the node moves.




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Absent Mind is, as usual, completely correct.

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#8
so its just aesthetics ? it doesnt actualy have any tonal enhancement ?

it would be great to have greater clarity from each string but would it involve tearing a humbucker to pieces and re asembling ?
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Last edited by admbwr at Apr 10, 2008,
#9
Quote by Absent Mind
But in reality there is no reason to put the pole peices closer to the node, its just a gimmick, the whole point of it is cancelled out as soon as you fret a string and the node moves.

Not necessarily, if you fret a string on the 12th fret of the 1st and 6th string the pole pieces will still be different lengths from the nodes because they are angled. No matter where you fret strings on the guitars all of the pole pieces will now have different distances from the nodes than before which can possibly have an effect on the tone of the guitar. Leo Fender was one damn genius and he is probably on to something here.
#10
i was hoping by using a standard humbucker it would have the same effect as one of these type bass pickups where each string goes between 2 pieces, but becuase of the angle or something it might be something along those lines


also angled single coils ? i gather they dont have any tonal enhancement ?
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#11
The original point on Humbuckers was prior to F spaced pickups, the pole pieces would not line up. Now it's something done for looks, which is why you don't see it. For Strats, I would imagine it was likely to warm up the bass strings. I want to say it was a spacing issue too, as the strings got slight narrower as you moved towards the nut. I don't think there is much to it beyond that...
#12
^ so you're saying with a none F spaced pickup it would be different but with F spaced it will make no difference?
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IBANEZ S SERIES CUSTOM
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#13
Quote by admbwr
so its just aesthetics ? it doesnt actualy have any tonal enhancement ?

it would be great to have greater clarity from each string but would it involve tearing a humbucker to pieces and re asembling ?


If you look closely at the picture you see that the two bobbins of the pickup are aligned on different sides. Each has the same spacing off the other sides so if you could get an old humbucker and move the bobbins to mimic that picture it may work.
#14
Quote by admbwr
^ so you're saying with a none F spaced pickup it would be different but with F spaced it will make no difference?

In what? I find it makes no difference tonally; just where the strings are over the poles.
#15
Quote by XgamerGt04
Not necessarily, if you fret a string on the 12th fret of the 1st and 6th string the pole pieces will still be different lengths from the nodes because they are angled. No matter where you fret strings on the guitars all of the pole pieces will now have different distances from the nodes than before which can possibly have an effect on the tone of the guitar. Leo Fender was one damn genius and he is probably on to something here.

No...He stumbled onto a naturally occurring effect.
But Nodes have no effect on your tone. That's nothing but mojo bull****, that's been carried on through the years by unwitting guitarists.
#16
Quote by forsaknazrael
No...He stumbled onto a naturally occurring effect.
But Nodes have no effect on your tone. That's nothing but mojo bull****, that's been carried on through the years by unwitting guitarists.


Haha maybe the guitarist are not unwitting. Pickups in the neck and bridge position have somewhat of a different sound even if they are the same pickup. So then just by that the angled humbucker should have some differences in sound, even though they may be very small. Nodes can have an effect especially if the pole piece becomes positioned behind the node while others are in front of it as this will cause the different pole pieces to pick up different harmonics.
#18
My original argument involved where the pole piece was in relation to a specific node and other pole pieces. The patent however says that angling the humbucker just makes each note more pronounced so that each has clarity in a chord.

The node argument has to do with harmonics and also the fact that the further a pole piece gets from a node the more motion the string produces. http://www.till.com/articles/PickupResponse/index.html that might explain some
By the way, the bridge is a node, as well as the nut when the string is vibrating at the fundamental frequency. So by saying that the tone is affected by the distance from the bridge is saying that it is affected by distance from a node.
#19
I doubt it does a whole lot of good for the tone, they just patented it so they can sue people who unwittingly use it. They couldn't patent the angled singlecoil because it had been used in all the early fender models and by the time G&L got around to patenting things, it had become public domain.
Last edited by Roc8995 at Apr 10, 2008,
#20
Quote by XgamerGt04
My original argument involved where the pole piece was in relation to a specific node and other pole pieces. The patent however says that angling the humbucker just makes each note more pronounced so that each has clarity in a chord.

The node argument has to do with harmonics and also the fact that the further a pole piece gets from a node the more motion the string produces. http://www.till.com/articles/PickupResponse/index.html that might explain some
By the way, the bridge is a node, as well as the nut when the string is vibrating at the fundamental frequency. So by saying that the tone is affected by the distance from the bridge is saying that it is affected by distance from a node.

The bridge difference argument is NOT the same thing...

Anyway, what I, and what pretty much anyone else talking about notes - when speaking in relation to guitar tone, was talking about is the idea that pickups are placed in certain positions because they want to avoid or want to use the node there.
Here:
http://www.edroman.com/techarticles/22vs24.htm
And here's my old thread about the whole dealie:
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=515636&highlight=node

And to help summarize, here's an important point from that thread as to WHY your bridge pickup is brighter than your neck pickup:
Quote by AlgeeEater
There WILL be tonal differences between 24 fret guitars, and 22 fret guitars. Not because of nodes, or harmonic sweet spots, but because of the location of the pickup in relation to vibrating string. Generally, the closer the pickup is to the 12th fret, the warmer it will sound. That's just common sense, the string vibrations are widest at the 12th fret, if you're playing open. Although, as you reduce the length of the neck, the strength and the stability of the neck go up by the cube. I guess that's the only advantage 22 frets have over 24.

#21
Alright i'll break this down a bit to try to present myself better. Avoiding a node is a good idea because at the node there is no vibration meaning that there is no signal transmitted.
Say that the string is played open:
The string does not vibrate at the nut or the bridge because it is held there, forming an node at the bridge and the nut. The point where the largest vibration occurs is at the 12th fret. The point where the largest vibration occurs is called an antinode. So you say the closer that it gets to the 12th fret the warmer the pickup is. So the closer that the pickup is to the antinode the warmer it is, while the closer it is to the node the brighter it is. This is why the pickup would be angled: to increase both the warmness of the bass notes and the brightness of the treble notes.
#22
Quote by XgamerGt04
Alright i'll break this down a bit to try to present myself better. Avoiding a node is a good idea because at the node there is no vibration meaning that there is no signal transmitted.
Say that the string is played open:
The string does not vibrate at the nut or the bridge because it is held there, forming an node at the bridge and the nut. The point where the largest vibration occurs is at the 12th fret. The point where the largest vibration occurs is called an antinode. So you say the closer that it gets to the 12th fret the warmer the pickup is. So the closer that the pickup is to the antinode the warmer it is, while the closer it is to the node the brighter it is. This is why the pickup would be angled: to increase both the warmness of the bass notes and the brightness of the treble notes.

Sorry, but that's just not true at all. A pickup being placed under the node will still pick up a signal...A node is REALLY tiny. Even if a pickup was on the node, it would still pick up the vibrations around the node...
If you read the thread I posted at all, you'd see that.

I'm not debating that an angled pickup isn't going to be brighter on the strings that are tilted towards the bridge. That'd be idiotic, because Telecasters and Strats are evidence. They already have tilted pickups.

I'm saying that the idea that nodes/antinodes, whatever, can have a bad effect on your tone. As you get closet to the bridge, your string gets STIFFER - meaning smaller vibrations, as you move away, it rings MORE FREELY. The vibrations are the widest at this point. This is why it gets bright or warmer, not because of nodes or antinodes.
#23
^
This is true- if it were about nodes, you'd have dead spots all over the fretboard, since the node placement changes with every different note. Also, if it were me I'd rather have the bass brighter and the treble warmer.
#24
Quote by forsaknazrael
Sorry, but that's just not true at all. A pickup being placed under the node will still pick up a signal...A node is REALLY tiny. Even if a pickup was on the node, it would still pick up the vibrations around the node...
If you read the thread I posted at all, you'd see that.

I'm not debating that an angled pickup isn't going to be brighter on the strings that are tilted towards the bridge. That'd be idiotic, because Telecasters and Strats are evidence. They already have tilted pickups.

I'm saying that the idea that nodes/antinodes, whatever, can have a bad effect on your tone. As you get closet to the bridge, your string gets STIFFER - meaning smaller vibrations, as you move away, it rings MORE FREELY. The vibrations are the widest at this point. This is why it gets bright or warmer, not because of nodes or antinodes.


Yes i understand where your coming from but think about this fact. Like i said the point where vibration is the widest is an antinode. The reason that there are not nodes canceling out all over the string is because a fretted note will only vibrate at a fundamental frequency. There are Two nodes, where the note is fretted or the nut and the bridge. Then the antinode is halfway between the two. The closer the pole piece is to the antinode the stronger the signal it can induce because the string has a wider vibration.
#25
Quote by XgamerGt04
Yes i understand where your coming from but think about this fact. Like i said the point where vibration is the widest is an antinode. The reason that there are not nodes canceling out all over the string is because a fretted note will only vibrate at a fundamental frequency. There are Two nodes, where the note is fretted or the nut and the bridge. Then the antinode is halfway between the two. The closer the pole piece is to the antinode the stronger the signal it can induce because the string has a wider vibration.

That has barely any effect on signal strength. Again, if it were you'd have certain notes much louder than others because of the location of the antinode.
FOR INSTANCE:
One of the nodes for an open string is right over the neck pickup on a Les Paul. We know this because that's exactly 1/4 of the string length and there's a harmonic there. However, that note is not any quieter than the first fretted note even though that harmonic is much farther away.
#26
Quote by Roc8995
That has barely any effect on signal strength. Again, if it were you'd have certain notes much louder than others because of the location of the antinode.
FOR INSTANCE:
One of the nodes for an open string is right over the neck pickup on a Les Paul. We know this because that's exactly 1/4 of the string length and there's a harmonic there. However, that note is not any quieter than the first fretted note even though that harmonic is much farther away.

On an open string there are only two nodes. It is the same for any string that is fretted. What you are forgetting is that as your fret further up the string the allowed vibration is less than the note before it. The overall vibration at the antinode decreases as you fret different notes but the location of the antinode becomes closer to the pickups.
#27
i play a fender with an angled X2N at the bridge. i really only did it cuz the holes from where i cut out the single coil space were convenient. it sounds pretty awesome none the less. it gives me chunkier lows and more definition on high strings. i didn't have to mess with the ppup at all.
#28
Quote by XgamerGt04
On an open string there are only two nodes. It is the same for any string that is fretted. What you are forgetting is that as your fret further up the string the allowed vibration is less than the note before it. The overall vibration at the antinode decreases as you fret different notes but the location of the antinode becomes closer to the pickups.

OK, I see that. I just don't see how the antinode is enough to effect the pickup. The antinode for the 12th fret is right on top of the neck pickup and there's no significant tone change or loss of volume like there should be if you're right- or am I misunderstanding?
#29
Quote by Roc8995
OK, I see that. I just don't see how the antinode is enough to effect the pickup. The antinode for the 12th fret is right on top of the neck pickup and there's no significant tone change or loss of volume like there should be if you're right- or am I misunderstanding?

Nah man, the antinode is where the string vibrations are the largest. But when you fret the guitar at the 12th fret the ability of the string to vibrate is greatly reduced. However having pole pieces closer to this antinode will have increased definition in their range. The antinode will not have a loss of volume, the node will have a loss of volume but there are only two nods on a guitar at any time with a string. Proximity to the antinode has an effect on tone, unless you do not count chunkier bass or brighter treble as a tone impact.
#30
I see. I'll have to experiment with slanted pickups, since I'm still not entirely convinced.
#31
Quote by XgamerGt04
Yes i understand where your coming from but think about this fact. Like i said the point where vibration is the widest is an antinode. The reason that there are not nodes canceling out all over the string is because a fretted note will only vibrate at a fundamental frequency. There are Two nodes, where the note is fretted or the nut and the bridge. Then the antinode is halfway between the two. The closer the pole piece is to the antinode the stronger the signal it can induce because the string has a wider vibration.

You know, what is it we're really going on about?

I'm talking about the fact that nodes falling on your pickup's position have NO negative effect on tone, and that the reason why pickups sound warmer or brighter has to do with the strings' ability to move freely. As you near the neck, it gets warmer, as you near the bridge, it gets brighter. And no ones arguing about the tonal difference of an angled humbucker.

But you keep going on about nodes and antinodes.
Okay, let's just run with that for a bit. Yes, the pickup approaching the neck is like approaching the antinode. That's where the strings have the biggest vibrations. But I think of it...like...the pickup sounds warmer because the strings ring more freely, not because the pickup is closer to the antinode. T

he antinode is just a label for that part of the vibration, it's not a WHY. This bigger vibration is also why the neck pickup has a "stronger signal".

The pickup sounds brighter as it gets closer to the bridge because the string gets stiffer, and rings less freely. Thus, lower output (which is why people favor hotter bridge pickups) and smaller vibrations. Smaller vibrations mean the pickup sounds brighter. The pickup does not sound brighter because it's closer to a node, it sounds brighter because the vibrations are smaller.
#32
Alright man i see what your trying to say but everything you say goes right back to the physical properties of a wave. It has to do with nodes and antinodes because of the fact that the largest vibration occurs at a spot that is called the antinode. As you get closer to a node there is less vibration, stiffer string because the string is supported by the bridge a node.

I understand that your tying to say that it has to do with the strings ability to move freely but it is because of the physical properties of waves that the string is more able to do so. Nodes and anitnodes.
#34
^ HAHAHAHA!

so any tonal enhancement at all ?
EPIPHONE LES PAUL
IBANEZ S SERIES CUSTOM
VOX AD30VT
#35
Quote by admbwr
^ HAHAHAHA!

so any tonal enhancement at all ?


Unless i'm wrong warmer bass, brighter treble. Its supposed to make each note have more clarity if multiple notes are played at once.
#36
Quote by XgamerGt04
Alright man i see what your trying to say but everything you say goes right back to the physical properties of a wave. It has to do with nodes and antinodes because of the fact that the largest vibration occurs at a spot that is called the antinode. As you get closer to a node there is less vibration, stiffer string because the string is supported by the bridge a node.

I understand that your tying to say that it has to do with the strings ability to move freely but it is because of the physical properties of waves that the string is more able to do so. Nodes and anitnodes.

Right, you're talking about labels...I never said you were wrong, just that you were talking about labels. You turned it into a buzz word fest....saying that guitars sound this and that because of where the pickup is placed in relation to nodes and antinodes. Sorry, that's how this mojo business started in the first place. I want to make it clear, so that bull**** myths stop.

Anyway, you still haven't addressed the point I presented that placing a pickup on a node has no negative effects on the tone.
#37
Quote by forsaknazrael
Right, you're talking about labels...I never said you were wrong, just that you were talking about labels. You turned it into a buzz word fest....saying that guitars sound this and that because of where the pickup is placed in relation to nodes and antinodes. Sorry, that's how this mojo business started in the first place. I want to make it clear, so that bull**** myths stop.

Anyway, you still haven't addressed the point I presented that placing a pickup on a node has no negative effects on the tone.


In order to have the node directly over the pickup you will have to pick the string and then mute it somewhere along the fretboard. A string vibrating that has not been muted will only vibrate at the fundamental frequency, two nodes and an antinode. If you mute the string then depending on the placement of the pickups certain harmonics may or may not be picked up.
#39
Quote by forsaknazrael
Well, I don't know that I buy into that. nodes are a very small point. Pickups, on the other hand, have a pretty wide field in which they pick up vibrations from the strings.


They will still get some signal but at that harmonic the signal will be very low because of the fact that the node is over the pickup. If they however are positioned under an antinode of a harmonic then the signal will be stronger because the string vibrates more.

Its not really a bull**** myth when the whole more string vibration has to do with nodes and antinodes. I'll have to try to pull some more stuff about it later though I'm leaving to head home in a few minutes. Feel free to continue the debate while I am gone though.
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