#1
I want to improve my improvisation / soloing more (don't we all?) and so I figure that I might as well learn the arpeggios of chords to get a better idea of chord tones to start and end my phrases on. Can anyone give me any ideas on how I can go about doing this?

I want to be able to have a situation where my band is saying "ok, lets just jam in the key of E minor, chords are Em, G, etc." and I know exactly where the chord tones are everywhere on the neck. Is there a pattern to arpeggios that works with every key? Discuss.
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#2
learn music theory. people can argue for as long as they want about how long winded it is but at the end of the day music theory is the way to go for what your asking.

if you decide you dont like the idea, the only way is to practice them. or at least thats the only way i can think of.
#3
Learn the chord formula. Find all of the notes of the arpeggios that land on the fretboard and then just practice gliding through them. Learning the shapes is just going to limit you. You're better off knowing what notes you can play than just what shape, because that way you can use the notes in different ways.
#4
Quote by WlCmToTheJungle
I want to improve my improvisation / soloing more (don't we all?) and so I figure that I might as well learn the arpeggios of chords to get a better idea of chord tones to start and end my phrases on. Can anyone give me any ideas on how I can go about doing this?

I want to be able to have a situation where my band is saying "ok, lets just jam in the key of E minor, chords are Em, G, etc." and I know exactly where the chord tones are everywhere on the neck. Is there a pattern to arpeggios that works with every key? Discuss.


Well, there is alot to learn, and its going to take years to understand it all and be able to apply it.

learn theory
learn the notes on the neck
learn the arpeggio shapes on the neck
learn to see the arpeggio shapes within the scale shapes
learn to hear all of it


* take lessons
* take a theory class
shred is gaudy music
#5
Quote by WlCmToTheJungle
Is there a pattern to arpeggios that works with every key? Discuss.


Yeah, there is. But, it's not so much a fretboard pattern as a mental pattern
you APPLY to the fretboard. The mental pattern is a 3 note per string "schematic"
and the fretboard application is the 3 note per string fingerings for them (which
all work the same for major, harmonic and melodic minor scales).

I talk about it some here (writeup fruther down):

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=593962

Also, if you look for threads I've started there's more on it including all the three
note per string fingerings.

EDIT.

Try these links also:

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=813959
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=595483
Last edited by edg at Apr 13, 2008,
#6
Basically to fit arpeggio shapes to a key you can use the chords of that key to determine which arpeggios to use.

For instance a major scale is formed like this.
M m m M M m mdm (Major minor minor Major Major minor minordiminished)

so if you want to play in the key of C:
C d e F G a bdm (These chords are available to you)

now that you know what chords to use you can use arpeggios that correspond to those chords. To find that shape you can either determine what three notes are in a specific chord and make your own arpeggio by repeating those down the neck or you can just use arpeggio references from the internet or a guitar book.

Most arpeggios start from the 6th, 5th, or 4th position meaning the low strings on the neck. (E A D G B E ) in standard tuning.

So if I want to play in the key of C and I want to play a G major arpeggio. I know that a G major chord contains the notes G, D, and B. So as long as i start from a G and use those notes its going to sound good if my accompaniment is playing in the key of C also.

Heres an example of a G major arpeggio shape from the 5th position. In my opinion one of the easier arpeggio shapes because it doesn't include finger rolling. As you can see it starts on the 10th fret and on the 5th string where the 10th fret is a G note and the 5th string is the corresponding position. If you look at the rest of the notes on your guitar you can see this arpeggio follows the notes in the chord G, B, D and repeats.

E-----------7--10--7
B---------8-----------8
G-------7---------------7
D-----9-------------------9
A--10----------------------10
E

Heres one more example of an A minor arpeggio also in that scale to give you an idea of how two arpeggios sound if you played them together. Try experimenting with different chords and you can get some really awesome sound out of two guitars playing arpeggios/chords together.

E-------------8--12--8
B----------10----------10
G--------9-----------------9
D-----10--------------------10
A--12-------------------------12
E


I hope this offers some help with your question I realize its rather brief considering the topic of arpeggios usually goes into much more detail.
#7
Quote by edg
Yeah, there is. But, it's not so much a fretboard pattern as a mental pattern
you APPLY to the fretboard. The mental pattern is a 3 note per string "schematic"
and the fretboard application is the 3 note per string fingerings for them (which
all work the same for major, harmonic and melodic minor scales).

I talk about it some here (writeup fruther down):

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=593962

Also, if you look for threads I've started there's more on it including all the three
note per string fingerings.

EDIT.

Try these links also:

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=813959
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=595483


I've got to make a separate folder in my bookmarks labeled (edg's lessons) now. I think these ones just pushed me up to having 4.

Nice work, this stuff will help me out considerably.
Strat / SH-201 -> DOD Mixer -> ZVex Mastotron -> Fulltone Clyde -> BYOC OD II -> Ibanez FLL -> VS Chorus -> DOD FX 96 -> Boss DD-6 -> MXR 10-Band EQ -> Boss RC-2 -> Stereo Mixer -> Alesis PicoVerb -> Peavey Delta Blues 210/Yamaha Fifty112
#8
Quote by edg
Yeah, there is. But, it's not so much a fretboard pattern as a mental pattern
you APPLY to the fretboard. The mental pattern is a 3 note per string "schematic"
and the fretboard application is the 3 note per string fingerings for them (which
all work the same for major, harmonic and melodic minor scales).

I talk about it some here (writeup fruther down):

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=593962



Although that link helped, I was wanting to learn the different arpeggios all in one position, then the next, etc. let me elaborate

Take G major:


E|-x-|-G-|---|-x-|
B|---|-x-|---|-x-|
G|-x-|---|-x-|-x-|
D|-x-|---|-x-|-G-|
A|-x-|-x-|---|-x-|
E|-x-|-G-|---|-x-|


Now heres the arpeggio for G major in bold

E|-x-|-[B]G[/B]-|---|-x-|
B|---|-[B]x[/B]-|---|-x-|
G|-x-|---|-[B]x[/B]-|-x-|
D|-x-|---|-x-|-[B]G[/B]-|
A|-[B]x[/B]-|-x-|---|-[B]x[/B]-|
E|-x-|-[B]G[/B]-|---|-x-|


Now here is the arpeggio for Am in bold


E|-x-|-G-|---|-[B]x[/B]-|
B|---|-x-|---|-[B]x[/B]-|
G|-[B]x[/B]-|---|-x-|-[B]x[/B]-|
D|-[B]x[/B]-|---|-x-|-G-|
A|-x-|-[B]x[/B]-|---|-x-|
E|-x-|-G-|---|-[B]x[/B]-|


see how I did the arpeggio for Am while staying within the G major box? That's what I want to learn how to do. So in short, I want to learn the box patterns / notes of the box within one position (the I position). Then, I want to learn the arpeggios in the next position (the II position), etc. etc. etc. until I can truly solo over the whole neck of the guitar utilizing arpeggios.
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#9
^But you see, that is exactly the monotonous process that his method bypasses. If you learn it at seven different arpeggios, in each of the seven positions of the major scale, that makes for 49 different patterns.
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#10
Quote by WlCmToTheJungle
Although that link helped, I was wanting to learn the different arpeggios all in one position, then the next, etc. let me elaborate

Take G major:


E|-x-|-G-|---|-x-|
B|---|-x-|---|-x-|
G|-x-|---|-x-|-x-|
D|-x-|---|-x-|-G-|
A|-x-|-x-|---|-x-|
E|-x-|-G-|---|-x-|


Now heres the arpeggio for G major in bold

E|-x-|-[B]G[/B]-|---|-x-|
B|---|-[B]x[/B]-|---|-x-|
G|-x-|---|-[B]x[/B]-|-x-|
D|-x-|---|-x-|-[B]G[/B]-|
A|-[B]x[/B]-|-x-|---|-[B]x[/B]-|
E|-x-|-[B]G[/B]-|---|-x-|


Now here is the arpeggio for Am in bold


E|-x-|-G-|---|-[B]x[/B]-|
B|---|-x-|---|-[B]x[/B]-|
G|-[B]x[/B]-|---|-x-|-[B]x[/B]-|
D|-[B]x[/B]-|---|-x-|-G-|
A|-x-|-[B]x[/B]-|---|-x-|
E|-x-|-G-|---|-[B]x[/B]-|


see how I did the arpeggio for Am while staying within the G major box? That's what I want to learn how to do. So in short, I want to learn the box patterns / notes of the box within one position (the I position). Then, I want to learn the arpeggios in the next position (the II position), etc. etc. etc. until I can truly solo over the whole neck of the guitar utilizing arpeggios.


That's overcomplicating the issue and a lot harder than doing it the right way. Learn the notes on the fretboard, learn your chords and study the major scale . As you learn more "shapes" just form themselves, you don't need to really memorise things as you can simply see things in context.

Theory IS the shortcut to learning this kind of stuff.
Actually called Mark!

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#11
Quote by WlCmToTheJungle


Now heres the arpeggio for G major in bold

E|-x-|-[B]G[/B]-|---|-x-|
B|---|-[B]x[/B]-|---|-x-|
G|-x-|---|-[B]x[/B]-|-x-|
D|-x-|---|-x-|-[B]G[/B]-|
A|-[B]x[/B]-|-x-|---|-[B]x[/B]-|
E|-x-|-[B]G[/B]-|---|-x-|


Now here is the arpeggio for Am in bold


For some reason I'm not seeing anything in bold....

Yeah, I think you're making more work for youself. The link explains how you
can memorize 7th chord arpeggios -- ALL of them in ANY position -- by just
memorizing the 7 "schematic" patterns. Of course, the trick is to be able
to "warp" the schematic to 3 note per string fingering positions, but that gets
easier as you work with them, plus the exact same patterns work for harmonic
and melodic minor arpeggios when playing those in 3 NPS fingerings.

Even if the 7th chord patterns seem like too much work, it's based on even easier
patterns to remember. Since chords are built in 3rds, A sequence of 3rds in the
"schematic" is simply a checkerboard pattern -- it doesn't get much easier to
remember than that!

If you don't want to do it with this 3 NPS system, then there's other ways you can
find. Break the problem down. For any triad inversion in the major scale there's
only going to be 3 basic pattern of types: maj, min and dim. Those types will
always appear in a sequence of 7: maj, min, min, maj, maj, min, dim. So, you can
go up & down and across the neck in the scale without too much trouble keeping
that in mind.
#12
Awesome advice guys. Thanks a lot. One question though, when you are soloing, don't you think in box patterns? Is that a habit I need to kick? Should I start thinking about my phrases as actual notes? I don't see how one could even think that fast haha. Discuss .

EDIT: and I forgot to add, I am still a little confused about these schemetic patterns. Please explain in further detail.
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Dean Performer Acoustic

#13
Quote by edg
Yeah, there is. But, it's not so much a fretboard pattern as a mental pattern
you APPLY to the fretboard. The mental pattern is a 3 note per string "schematic"
and the fretboard application is the 3 note per string fingerings for them (which
all work the same for major, harmonic and melodic minor scales).

I talk about it some here (writeup fruther down):

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=593962

Also, if you look for threads I've started there's more on it including all the three
note per string fingerings.

EDIT.

Try these links also:

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=813959
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=595483



hey edg,

i really like what you have done with the arpeggio shapes, but i seem to be having trouble when i'm looking at them. it appears as if the shape you have labelled G maj 7 arpeggio is really a G7 arpeggio. or maybe i'm just reading into the little lines between the notes a little too much. either way, i think 3 nps is the most coherent way to learn scales and modes as each mode is contained within each fingering, so all you have to know is which mode you want to hit and you have multiple options all over the fretboard.
#14
Learn where the notes are and then play the notes of the arpeggio you want to play. Or learn lots of different chord shapes.
I will shred in the end!!
#15
Quote by WlCmToTheJungle

EDIT: and I forgot to add, I am still a little confused about these schemetic patterns. Please explain in further detail.


The "schematic" is just taking out all the specific half/whole steps of the actual
scale fingering positions. That just leaves you with a 6 column by 3 row grid.
Columns = strings and each row is a note on the string. It's a general "picture" of
ANY fingering position. It's always the same picture because you always have 6
strings and 3 notes per string. If you use that as a "mental" picture of any position,
you can generalize a LOT of concepts ANYWHERE.

For instance, as I said, diatonic 3rds is just a checkerboard pattern. If I want to
play diatonic 3rds up and down the scale in any fingering position, I only have
to memorize a sequence of 6 notes on 2 strings. Anything after that is just
a repetition of the same thing on any string in any position. 4ths. 5ths, 6ths...
pretty much anything all works the same.

This is mostly just a savings of having to memorize a lot of different patterns for
essentially doing the same thing anywhere on the neck. At least at first. You
still have to do the work of translating the schematic to the finger positions.
That might not be so easy at first. But the more you work with it, the more
each of the specific positions just begins to become like the schematic. It gets
easier and easier to memorize and then just start playing it. At some point you
even begin to transcend finger positions altogether.
#17
Yeah. Unless you practice it awhile, you probably won't get comfortable using it.
This is one of those things where a lot of work might not show a lot of immediate
payoff. I think it's worth the effort and have found the payoff to be really huge.
A lot depends on how much critical mass you can achieve to get it rolling.
#18
Quote by edg
Yeah. Unless you practice it awhile, you probably won't get comfortable using it.
This is one of those things where a lot of work might not show a lot of immediate
payoff. I think it's worth the effort and have found the payoff to be really huge.
A lot depends on how much critical mass you can achieve to get it rolling.


gotcha. me understand nowz. good system styles.
#19
unless I am really missing something here (and you know I am), your patterns make no sense. You say this is the G major arpeggio:



| | | | | |
R | Y Y | |
| | | | | |
| X X | X X   Pattern 1
| | | | | |
X | | X X |
| | | | | |


=
some of those notes in the arpeggio aren't even in the G major scale. For example, the F and the A# (I made them Ys instead of Xs)

Please explain to me how this is. This is confusing the hell out of me
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Dean Performer Acoustic

Last edited by WlCmToTheJungle at Apr 17, 2008,
#20
Can someone explain to me two things.


Chord tones : what are they?

Arpeggio's : I thought they were broken up chords or just designated notes from the scale, is that what they are? Are there certain arpeggio shapes or can you make your own.

Thanks alot.
#21
Quote by WlCmToTheJungle
unless I am really missing something here (and you know I am), your patterns make no sense. You say this is the G major arpeggio:



| | | | | |
R | Y Y | |
| | | | | |
| X X | X X Pattern 1
| | | | | |
X | | X X |
| | | | | |


=
some of those notes in the arpeggio aren't even in the G major scale. For example, the F and the A# (I made them Ys instead of Xs)

Please explain to me how this is. This is confusing the hell out of me


That's the generalized schematic. What you need to do, then, is apply it to a scale. Using the G major scale as an example, it would come up like this:


| | | | | |
R | | | | |
| | 7 3 | |
| 5 R | | |
| | | | | | 
3 | | 5 7 3
| | | | R | 


Maybe you should try reading that edg's post again.
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Last edited by seedmole at Apr 18, 2008,
#22
Quote by seedmole
That's the generalized schematic. What you need to do, then, is apply it to a scale. Using the G major scale as an example, it would come up like this:


Yep. That's how it works. The general pattern, is general. You can apply it to any
finger position. In the next finger position (since they were given in the key of G
starts on A) and if you apply the EXACT same schematic to it you get
A minor 7.
#23
I am still really confused. Can you write the ACTUAL fingerings? Wouldn't the same fingerings apply to every key?
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Dean Performer Acoustic

Last edited by WlCmToTheJungle at Apr 18, 2008,
#25
Quote by edg
I gave the actual fingerings in that thread. There's 7 different positions. In fact,
also gave the actual fingerings for melodic and harmonic minor as well. You can
apply the same schematic patterning to all of them.


you gave these 7 patterns that you just said are schematic and you need to apply them to certain scales, which I take as they are not actual fingerings. Can you just re-explain this, I have no clue what are you are talking about.

I don't see how this is an actual fingering of the G major arpeggio


E A G D B E
| | | | | |
R | X X | |
| | | | | |
| X X | X X   Pattern 1
| | | | | |
X | | X X |
| | | | | |


and I read your lesson like 5 times
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Dean Performer Acoustic

Last edited by WlCmToTheJungle at Apr 19, 2008,
#27
Quote by WlCmToTheJungle
you gave these 7 patterns that you just said are schematic and you need to apply them to certain scales, which I take as they are not actual fingerings. Can you just re-explain this, I have no clue what are you are talking about.

I don't see how this is an actual fingering of the G major arpeggio


E A G D B E
| | | | | |
R | X X | |
| | | | | |
| X X | X X Pattern 1
| | | | | |
X | | X X |
| | | | | |


and I read your lesson like 5 times


LOL. Ok, I'll try again... (LONG POST AHEAD)

The above is NOT an actual G major arpeggio *fingering* -- it's a pattern for 7th
chords, with the root on the very lowest string lowest note, in the *schematic*
(if there's a better word for schematic I can't think of one. What it means is that
if ALL three note per string fingerings have some traits in common, you can
represent ALL of them with ONE picture of those traits. In this case the two traits
represented are 3 notes (rows) and 6 strings (columns). That's a general pattern
for ALL 3 NPS actual fingerings).

OK, back to the above pattern. As I said it's NOT G major 7th, it's ANY 7th chord --
major, minor, dominant, minor-major, half dim, diminished -- you want it to be. It
all depends on which 3 NPS scale you apply it to AND which fingering position.

So for example if I applied that pattern to the 1st position of the G major scale
3 NPS fingering, that WOULD be G maj 7. If I applied it to the same position of
the G harmonic or melodic minor scale that would give me G minor-major7.

If I applied the EXACT same schematic pattern to:

2nd position of G Major 3NPS fingering it would yield Amin7
3rd position of G Major 3NPS fingering it would yield Bmin7
4th position of G Major 3NPS fingering it would yield Cmaj7
5th position of G Major 3NPS fingering it would yield D7
6th position of G Major 3NPS fingering it would yield Emin7
7th position of G Major 3NPS fingering it would yield F#min7b5

In the EXACT same way I could apply the EXACT same schematic to Harmonic and
Melodic minor 3 NPS fingerings and get ALL the harmonized 7th chords out of those
scales too.

So, assuming I know my major, harmonic and melodic minor fingering patterns
REALLY well (VERY IMPORTANT), if I have memorized only ONE mental picture
(schematic) I immediately know 21 harmonized 7th chord arpeggio patterns
(3 scales X 7 positions per scale = 21).

There's a wee bit more. Your example shows only one of the schematic patterns.
But there are 7. Why 7 schematics? Simply because the Root note (R) of any
arpeggio can start on 7 possible positions within each pattern and the overall
pattern depends on it.

Assume you know your 3 NPS fingerings for major, melodic minor and harmonic
minor really really really well. If you want to learn ALL the harmonized 7th chords
in ALL those scales in ALL fingering positions, you ONLY have to memorize 7
things (schematic) and that will yield 147 different 7th chord arpeggio patterns!!!!
( 7 positions X 7 schematics per position X 3 scales = 147 ). Not a bad bang for
your memorizing buck!

Desipite this long post, it's not a difficult concept. I think you just have to separate
the schematic from the actual fingering and the light will go on. And the thing is,
this can be applied not only to 7th chords, but to almost any type of scalar property
you can think of. This is just one of the reasons (there's a few more) why I think
3 NPS fingerings are really about the only system you need for major and the
2 minor scales. The ability to do this rests on knowing those well.
#28
Quote by edg
LOL. Ok, I'll try again... (LONG POST AHEAD)

The above is NOT an actual G major arpeggio *fingering* -- it's a pattern for 7th
chords, with the root on the very lowest string lowest note, in the *schematic*
(if there's a better word for schematic I can't think of one. What it means is that
if ALL three note per string fingerings have some traits in common, you can
represent ALL of them with ONE picture of those traits. In this case the two traits
represented are 3 notes (rows) and 6 strings (columns). That's a general pattern
for ALL 3 NPS actual fingerings).

OK, back to the above pattern. As I said it's NOT G major 7th, it's ANY 7th chord --
major, minor, dominant, minor-major, half dim, diminished -- you want it to be. It
all depends on which 3 NPS scale you apply it to AND which fingering position.

So for example if I applied that pattern to the 1st position of the G major scale
3 NPS fingering, that WOULD be G maj 7. If I applied it to the same position of
the G harmonic or melodic minor scale that would give me G minor-major7.

If I applied the EXACT same schematic pattern to:

2nd position of G Major 3NPS fingering it would yield Amin7
3rd position of G Major 3NPS fingering it would yield Bmin7
4th position of G Major 3NPS fingering it would yield Cmaj7
5th position of G Major 3NPS fingering it would yield D7
6th position of G Major 3NPS fingering it would yield Emin7
7th position of G Major 3NPS fingering it would yield F#min7b5

In the EXACT same way I could apply the EXACT same schematic to Harmonic and
Melodic minor 3 NPS fingerings and get ALL the harmonized 7th chords out of those
scales too.

So, assuming I know my major, harmonic and melodic minor fingering patterns
REALLY well (VERY IMPORTANT), if I have memorized only ONE mental picture
(schematic) I immediately know 21 harmonized 7th chord arpeggio patterns
(3 scales X 7 positions per scale = 21).

There's a wee bit more. Your example shows only one of the schematic patterns.
But there are 7. Why 7 schematics? Simply because the Root note (R) of any
arpeggio can start on 7 possible positions within each pattern and the overall
pattern depends on it.

Assume you know your 3 NPS fingerings for major, melodic minor and harmonic
minor really really really well. If you want to learn ALL the harmonized 7th chords
in ALL those scales in ALL fingering positions, you ONLY have to memorize 7
things (schematic) and that will yield 147 different 7th chord arpeggio patterns!!!!
( 7 positions X 7 schematics per position X 3 scales = 147 ). Not a bad bang for
your memorizing buck!

Desipite this long post, it's not a difficult concept. I think you just have to separate
the schematic from the actual fingering and the light will go on. And the thing is,
this can be applied not only to 7th chords, but to almost any type of scalar property
you can think of. This is just one of the reasons (there's a few more) why I think
3 NPS fingerings are really about the only system you need for major and the
2 minor scales. The ability to do this rests on knowing those well.





ok, I think (I hope) that I get what you are saying now. So are you saying that these schematics are just patterns and that you have to know the actual 7 positions of the major scale. Then, you alter these patterns to fit the scale?
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